2023 Offseason

[cross16]

I heard it too. From what it sounds like is SJ pitched it to Calgary and Conroy quickly declined and talks went no where. 

 

Which is the right call because Couture just really is not worth it at this point in time. I quite like Eklund and think he is a top end prospect but having Couture has 4 more years on his deal at 8 mill per and it takes him to 38. That's a massive anchor against the cap.

 

And not to mention I don't like the all your egss in one basket approach. Lindholm should be worth a minimum of 2-3 good assets. So you take that down to 1 and take on big cap risk to get 1 prospect. Anything happens to Eklund you've minimized your asset. 

 

Right call to say no, if it's true. 

[travel_dude]

32 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya I saw this rumour too.  I think this type of trade is good if the prospect is worth it.  SJ trying to pawn off Monahan for a 1st pick basically.  Instead, it's 4-years of Couture and the reward is Eklund.

 

I don't know enough of Eklund to have an opinion.  An undersized playmaking LHS LW.  Put up decent but not elite numbers in the AHL last year. On the surface, that sounds like what we don't need and we have an abundance of as an organization.

 

Sorry, but trading a top C for an old C on an expensive contract + good prospect does not equate to Monahan trade. Maybe the better trade would be one year of Backlund for 4 years of Couture + Eklund.

[The_People1]

58 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sorry, but trading a top C for an old C on an expensive contract + good prospect does not equate to Monahan trade. Maybe the better trade would be one year of Backlund for 4 years of Couture + Eklund.

 

The concept/idea is the same.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I heard it too. From what it sounds like is SJ pitched it to Calgary and Conroy quickly declined and talks went no where. 

 

Which is the right call because Couture just really is not worth it at this point in time. I quite like Eklund and think he is a top end prospect but having Couture has 4 more years on his deal at 8 mill per and it takes him to 38. That's a massive anchor against the cap.

 

And not to mention I don't like the all your egss in one basket approach. Lindholm should be worth a minimum of 2-3 good assets. So you take that down to 1 and take on big cap risk to get 1 prospect. Anything happens to Eklund you've minimized your asset. 

 

Right call to say no, if it's true. 

 

No, we need the 1 high end blue chipper and not 2-3 mid-tier level prospects.

 

I would do Couture + Will Smith instantly, for example.  I just don't feel Eklund is a big enough game changer.

[cross16]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

No, we need the 1 high end blue chipper and not 2-3 mid-tier level prospects.

 

I would do Couture + Will Smith instantly, for example.  I just don't feel Eklund is a big enough game changer.

 

Well yes if it was a blue chip prospect that would change the approach.

 

Good luck getting that in a trade like this though. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Well yes if it was a blue chip prospect that would change the approach.

 

Good luck getting that in a trade like this though. 

 

Ya it's interesting nonetheless because I feel the Flames will be in this situation in about 4 years.  We will have to package Kadri + Honzek to get rid of Kadri's final two years (or Huberdeau's final 4).

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya I saw this rumour too.  I think this type of trade is good if the prospect is worth it.  SJ trying to pawn off Monahan for a 1st pick basically.  Instead, it's 4-years of Couture and the reward is Eklund.

 

I don't know enough of Eklund to have an opinion.  An undersized playmaking LHS LW.  Put up decent but not elite numbers in the AHL last year. On the surface, that sounds like what we don't need and we have an abundance of as an organization.

 

pretty much this.

[cross16]

25 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya it's interesting nonetheless because I feel the Flames will be in this situation in about 4 years.  We will have to package Kadri + Honzek to get rid of Kadri's final two years (or Huberdeau's final 4).

 

Well what is unique about SJ is they doubled, maybe even tripled, down. They had aging players, locked them up and then went out to the market to get even more (Evander Kane and Erik Karlsson) and then signed those players to long term deals. They also gave up high draft picks to get those players. 

 

So now you left with a mess of a roster, brutal long term cap implications and no prospects because they dealt picks. If they don't make the Karlsson trade they'd have Tim Stutzle and I think this conversation is different. 

 

That's what's unique about SJ, they should have some top end prospects to work in around Couture but they don't. They should have more volume of prospects but they signed multiple bad deasl (Martin Jones, Vlasic, Burns, Karlsson) that they have so much dead cap space or untradable deals. 

 

Some similarities to the Flames but not as extreme and Flames seem more intentional about not going down this path (ie trading Toffoli, not extending Backlund etc)

[jjgallow]

54 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Well what is unique about SJ is they doubled, maybe even tripled, down. They had aging players, locked them up and then went out to the market to get even more (Evander Kane and Erik Karlsson) and then signed those players to long term deals. They also gave up high draft picks to get those players. 

 

So now you left with a mess of a roster, brutal long term cap implications and no prospects because they dealt picks. If they don't make the Karlsson trade they'd have Tim Stutzle and I think this conversation is different. 

 

That's what's unique about SJ, they should have some top end prospects to work in around Couture but they don't. They should have more volume of prospects but they signed multiple bad deasl (Martin Jones, Vlasic, Burns, Karlsson) that they have so much dead cap space or untradable deals. 

 

Some similarities to the Flames but not as extreme and Flames seem more intentional about not going down this path (ie trading Toffoli, not extending Backlund etc)

 

Can confirm, despite all my complaining the Flames are far from the worst offenders.

 

I just have higher standards for our club.

 

If we are being really honest with ourselves about how long it will take to fully recover, those contracts are not a big issue as we will just Start to have a serious pipeline around that time, and a lot of ELC  players.    We'll probably extend the ELCs around the time Kadri and co drop off our contract roster.  and of course the cap will be higher then etc etc.

 

There is still a lot of separation between us and the worst offenders, like the Sharks.  Lots of hope.   Just people need to accept that this is a multi-year recovery, that's all.

[The_People1]

18 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Well what is unique about SJ is they doubled, maybe even tripled, down. They had aging players, locked them up and then went out to the market to get even more (Evander Kane and Erik Karlsson) and then signed those players to long term deals. They also gave up high draft picks to get those players. 

 

So now you left with a mess of a roster, brutal long term cap implications and no prospects because they dealt picks. If they don't make the Karlsson trade they'd have Tim Stutzle and I think this conversation is different. 

 

That's what's unique about SJ, they should have some top end prospects to work in around Couture but they don't. They should have more volume of prospects but they signed multiple bad deasl (Martin Jones, Vlasic, Burns, Karlsson) that they have so much dead cap space or untradable deals. 

 

Some similarities to the Flames but not as extreme and Flames seem more intentional about not going down this path (ie trading Toffoli, not extending Backlund etc)

 

Yes sadly the Flames are not far behind SJ because ownership mandated win-now which implies getting the right players under any circumstance, Including giving players stupid long contracts way last their primes.

 

If it wasn't for Lindholm's hesitation to extend long term and Backlund looking to play out his final year, then we would be SJ.  The players are doing us a favour by wanting to leave.

[cross16]

56 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yes sadly the Flames are not far behind SJ because ownership mandated win-now which implies getting the right players under any circumstance, Including giving players stupid long contracts way last their primes.

 

If it wasn't for Lindholm's hesitation to extend long term and Backlund looking to play out his final year, then we would be SJ.  The players are doing us a favour by wanting to leave.

 

I don't believe this to be the case. As I understand it the Flames have had the chance to extend Backlund if they wish but are choosing not to. Same with Toffoli. 

[The_People1]

10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't believe this to be the case. As I understand it the Flames have had the chance to extend Backlund if they wish but are choosing not to. Same with Toffoli. 

 

Yes.  Hopefully Conroy is more sensible than BT.  But it does sound like an 8-year deal is on the table for Lindholm.  Let's see how that plays out.

[travel_dude]

41 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yes.  Hopefully Conroy is more sensible than BT.  But it does sound like an 8-year deal is on the table for Lindholm.  Let's see how that plays out.

 

I guess the problem is you have no other top C on the team right now.  Trading Lindholm doesn't get you one.  Even a 1st coming back would not be a lotto first.  Doubt a mid to late 1st gets you that player.  Re-signing him carries the risk of the cap left to improve the team.  Not bringing back Backlund is a sound decision.  Trading Hanifin is not just "he wants to go" as much as we need to be strategic in next deals,  We lose an offensive D-man and possibly get a good return + cap space this and next season.  

 

So, really you can only sign one of those 3 expiring players.  Zadorov isn't going to cost as much as even Tanev makes.  Tanev may not be a good investment unless he is willing to take a cut.  Kylington is high risk high reward.  Re-sign him before the season, but keep the term reasonable.  He's not commanding $5M now, but a strong showing puts his cost way up.  That leaves Dube that you can sign now or early on.  Or trade if that gets you a better result.

[robrob74]

54 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I guess the problem is you have no other top C on the team right now.  Trading Lindholm doesn't get you one.  Even a 1st coming back would not be a lotto first.  Doubt a mid to late 1st gets you that player.  Re-signing him carries the risk of the cap left to improve the team.  Not bringing back Backlund is a sound decision.  Trading Hanifin is not just "he wants to go" as much as we need to be strategic in next deals,  We lose an offensive D-man and possibly get a good return + cap space this and next season.  

 

So, really you can only sign one of those 3 expiring players.  Zadorov isn't going to cost as much as even Tanev makes.  Tanev may not be a good investment unless he is willing to take a cut.  Kylington is high risk high reward.  Re-sign him before the season, but keep the term reasonable.  He's not commanding $5M now, but a strong showing puts his cost way up.  That leaves Dube that you can sign now or early on.  Or trade if that gets you a better result.

it is exactly why you go retool over three or four years and why we needed one this draft. Honzek might be the right pick if we still had Lindholm but we needed a C with high upside in a draft that had a lot of C talent. 
 

How high up can Dube, Ruzicka, Zary play on the depth chart? If Lindholm opts out, we are screwed. 
 

Edited in: I forgot about Kadri. 

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

it is exactly why you go retool over three or four years and why we needed one this draft. Honzek might be the right pick if we still had Lindholm but we needed a C with high upside in a draft that had a lot of C talent. 
 

How high up can Dube, Ruzicka, Zary play on the depth chart? If Lindholm opts out, we are screwed. 
 

Edited in: I forgot about Kadri. 

 

I don't consider Kadri close to a #1.  So the re-tool is very difficult to do.  I think we are seeing a bit of one right now, but it's kinda critical that we retain Lindholm.  The way we have operated is to invest long term in players with value.  That makes them non-trade fodder.  We don't sign the one year deals with good players.  Even Milano should or could have been a one year deal.  We chose to not commit and leave it to Sutter to push him out.  For the likes of Lewis, Lucic, Ritchie and such.  This year is the year of one year deals, so TDL is going to be a ton of available players.  It's why I won't wait for then to sell any players.  Perhaps Connie was smart in not signing these deals, because they are most likely one and done.  

[robrob74]

I don't know if it's just me, but this off-season has felt like one of the worst feelings. 
 

There seems to be so many unsubstantiated rumours flying around due to the click-bait. All they are doing is rehashing all of what has already been said, quoting "the insiders." And it's all the same over and over, and a lot of it is also common sense. 
 

Maybe it's because, while they have stated a direction, there seems to be a lack of direction. 
 

it's too bad that the team didn't see the writing on the wall regarding the Tkachuk and Gaudreau situations. If they took on Weegar and Huberdeau, imagine the returns at the TDL if they decided to not re-sign then! We could have retained on cap on the others that would have had one year left on their contracts too.
 

We seem to be in an even worse position this year. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

I don't know if it's just me, but this off-season has felt like one of the worst feelings. 
 

There seems to be so many unsubstantiated rumours flying around due to the click-bait. All they are doing is rehashing all of what has already been said, quoting "the insiders." And it's all the same over and over, and a lot of it is also common sense. 
 

Maybe it's because, while they have stated a direction, there seems to be a lack of direction. 
 

it's too bad that the team didn't see the writing on the wall regarding the Tkachuk and Gaudreau situations. If they took on Weegar and Huberdeau, imagine the returns at the TDL if they decided to not re-sign then! We could have retained on cap on the others that would have had one year left on their contracts too.
 

We seem to be in an even worse position this year. 

 

So, you don't re-sign Hubey and Weegar.  Both had poor seasons overall.  You think that they would have high value?  The vultures come looking more than the good deals.  

 

Anyway, I'm not happy with the off-season because we appear to be doing nothing.  I get frustrated when it appears we are overthinking it.  I don't know that to be the case, just the appearance.  

[conundrumed]

What's the problem? We traded almost nothing and got a sniper on a good contract, added yet another former Michigan center, shored up the bottom 6 with moveable contracts. Added D and G that aren't spectacular but still moveable contracts if they don't work out. Still saving cap for next year's monster contracts so no harm in meandering through players. I really wanted Lindholm if he doesn't re-sign with the Flames but there's still time for that. Both him and Compher also play RW.

Oh wait. Wrong team. *turns hat around

I'm glad that we're showing patience over panic. The market isn't there and may not be but why force it? There are still players looking for jobs kicking around should we find the right deal(s). We have spots for young players like we all wanted but we'll complain regardless? Things are never as bad as they seem, but if you focus on the negatives, you'll always find company to spin it further.

Are there any GMs out there that have learned a valuable lesson in spending money that you don't have? It's been 5 years of, "the cap will take a big leap". It's both funny and painful to watch. It's like getting a paycheque only to find that it doesn't quite cover the debt you've accumulated. The cap is jumping $5mil, yay. Don't get too excited fans, we've already spent it.lol

I WANT this to be a flux season. All season. Those are my expectations. If we're good, extra bonus points, if we miss the playoffs but see progress, perfect.

Why is Conroy getting ANY heat? Does nobody see what he's taking over? Short-term memory? It's a mess. He's been on the job for 2 months. It's going to take awhile so get used to it.

As an aside, when the Wings got Nedeljlkovic we were overjoyed. 1st year he was decent, added Husso we should be rock solid. Last year demoted, now no longer in the org. Nobody, but nobody, is spitting venom at him. He's well-liked and everyone hopes the best for him. Conversely, you'd think Markstrom murders children. The vitriol is pure poison. Wtf is wrong with people? 18 players let the Oilers run roughshod over them. But Markstrom is worse than dirt. It was his fault and he will never recover from it. Do those words not sound completely ridiculous to anyone? Yet it's an echo chamber. "We have to overpay to get guys to play here". Honestly? With that fan behaviour you should be happy if even that works. Now Huberdeau is the worst player to ever lace them up, Kadri sucks etc etc.

Can we not be better? Everyone wants a healthy, fun team environment. Yet they're oblivious that the fan environment works against that. If you hate Oilers fans so much, why not stop acting like them?

Kaboom. But totally true.

The toxic fanbase thing is old. Players prefer US markets. It shouldn't be surprising. It's not the climate, not the taxes. It's the weight of getting out from under Canadian markets that grind you into dust and you gain some form of anonymity. "Canadians are more knowledgeable". No they're not. Just far more arrogant.

 

[Sarasti]

On 7/24/2023 at 1:42 AM, conundrumed said:

What's the problem? We traded almost nothing and got a sniper on a good contract, added yet another former Michigan center, shored up the bottom 6 with moveable contracts. Added D and G that aren't spectacular but still moveable contracts if they don't work out. Still saving cap for next year's monster contracts so no harm in meandering through players. I really wanted Lindholm if he doesn't re-sign with the Flames but there's still time for that. Both him and Compher also play RW.

Oh wait. Wrong team. *turns hat around

I'm glad that we're showing patience over panic. The market isn't there and may not be but why force it? There are still players looking for jobs kicking around should we find the right deal(s). We have spots for young players like we all wanted but we'll complain regardless? Things are never as bad as they seem, but if you focus on the negatives, you'll always find company to spin it further.

Are there any GMs out there that have learned a valuable lesson in spending money that you don't have? It's been 5 years of, "the cap will take a big leap". It's both funny and painful to watch. It's like getting a paycheque only to find that it doesn't quite cover the debt you've accumulated. The cap is jumping $5mil, yay. Don't get too excited fans, we've already spent it.lol

I WANT this to be a flux season. All season. Those are my expectations. If we're good, extra bonus points, if we miss the playoffs but see progress, perfect.

Why is Conroy getting ANY heat? Does nobody see what he's taking over? Short-term memory? It's a mess. He's been on the job for 2 months. It's going to take awhile so get used to it.

As an aside, when the Wings got Nedeljlkovic we were overjoyed. 1st year he was decent, added Husso we should be rock solid. Last year demoted, now no longer in the org. Nobody, but nobody, is spitting venom at him. He's well-liked and everyone hopes the best for him. Conversely, you'd think Markstrom murders children. The vitriol is pure poison. Wtf is wrong with people? 18 players let the Oilers run roughshod over them. But Markstrom is worse than dirt. It was his fault and he will never recover from it. Do those words not sound completely ridiculous to anyone? Yet it's an echo chamber. "We have to overpay to get guys to play here". Honestly? With that fan behaviour you should be happy if even that works. Now Huberdeau is the worst player to ever lace them up, Kadri sucks etc etc.

Can we not be better? Everyone wants a healthy, fun team environment. Yet they're oblivious that the fan environment works against that. If you hate Oilers fans so much, why not stop acting like them?

Kaboom. But totally true.

The toxic fanbase thing is old. Players prefer US markets. It shouldn't be surprising. It's not the climate, not the taxes. It's the weight of getting out from under Canadian markets that grind you into dust and you gain some form of anonymity. "Canadians are more knowledgeable". No they're not. Just far more arrogant.

 

 

The truth to this made it an enjoyable read.

I agree. I have been and likely always will be an optimistic fan. The sky is never falling in my eyes.

The fans you refer to are what really get my spirits down.

Its okay to be unhappy, but some of the things people say are embarrassing at best and shameful at worst.

[conundrumed]

Question...is the downside of waiting for the right deal on Hanifin (and maybe others) that you can't do a 1 year trial on Tarasenko types like Ottawa just did?

Should we have been perhaps taking not great deals while not retaining cap, allowing us to do 1 year deals on TDL fodder if we're a playoff miss? i.e. getting further value on the traded player or we signed a keeper with the cash?

What does everyone think?

For clarity, take what we can get now to clear salary for other add(s) that still have TDL value as we add prospect/pick capital? Is the cap worth more than the player that we know won't re-sign?

Or....just hooope that a better deal comes along? Proactive vs Reactive as it were.

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Question...is the downside of waiting for the right deal on Hanifin (and maybe others) that you can't do a 1 year trial on Tarasenko types like Ottawa just did?

Should we have been perhaps taking not great deals while not retaining cap, allowing us to do 1 year deals on TDL fodder if we're a playoff miss? i.e. getting further value on the traded player or we signed a keeper with the cash?

What does everyone think?

For clarity, take what we can get now to clear salary for other add(s) that still have TDL value as we add prospect/pick capital? Is the cap worth more than the player that we know won't re-sign?

Or....just hooope that a better deal comes along? Proactive vs Reactive as it were.

 

Okay, so this year is even weirder than others, where so many players are looking for scraps and the likelyhood of anything longer than a year is doubtful.  We have painted ourselves into corners so that the only thing we looked at was PTO's.  Only a couple have worked out.  Versteeg the most recent and he wasn't even invited.

 

Ottawa is still in a world of hurt.  Two players on IR, but no cap to sign Pinto and a few others.  Not that's that a big deal, but they did sign a good player on a one year deal.

 

I'm of the mind that if teams are offering anything reasonable for Backlund and it isn't taking back crap, we should do the deal.  Not sure if Hanifin is drawing enough in return, but I might hold off on that one for now.  Now, if we can get a replacement for him as a UFA and get a reasonable return, then it's less important to wait for the perfect deal.

 

I am also of the mind that we should be looking at players on one year deals.  Dumba has a high profile (and cost), Foote is young and cheap, and Bear is probably looking for a rebound.  2 of those guys might be able to replace some of the work done by Tanev or be trade assets.

[travel_dude]

I would add, that doing nothing this summer also impacts the signing of Lindholm, who would likely sign if the team showed it was intent on winning.  Not just now but for a stretch of most of the years they want to sign him to.  Sitting on pending UFA's doesn't show much more than just rolling it back.  Yeah it makes sense to hold onto some until TDL, but not all.

[conundrumed]

18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Okay, so this year is even weirder than others, where so many players are looking for scraps and the likelyhood of anything longer than a year is doubtful.  We have painted ourselves into corners so that the only thing we looked at was PTO's.  Only a couple have worked out.  Versteeg the most recent and he wasn't even invited.

 

Ottawa is still in a world of hurt.  Two players on IR, but no cap to sign Pinto and a few others.  Not that's that a big deal, but they did sign a good player on a one year deal.

 

I'm of the mind that if teams are offering anything reasonable for Backlund and it isn't taking back crap, we should do the deal.  Not sure if Hanifin is drawing enough in return, but I might hold off on that one for now.  Now, if we can get a replacement for him as a UFA and get a reasonable return, then it's less important to wait for the perfect deal.

 

I am also of the mind that we should be looking at players on one year deals.  Dumba has a high profile (and cost), Foote is young and cheap, and Bear is probably looking for a rebound.  2 of those guys might be able to replace some of the work done by Tanev or be trade assets.

Even Dumba might get stuck in this problematic offseason. Maybe he'd do a 1 year and wait for the climate to change. He hasn't signed yet, so it begs the question. I'd love to have him, but we seem frozen, almost begging players to stay, which is sad unto itself. Sitting on your hands wanting more doesn't inspire change.

[robrob74]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

I would add, that doing nothing this summer also impacts the signing of Lindholm, who would likely sign if the team showed it was intent on winning.  Not just now but for a stretch of most of the years they want to sign him to.  Sitting on pending UFA's doesn't show much more than just rolling it back.  Yeah it makes sense to hold onto some until TDL, but not all.

I agree! It isn't like the Flames are shuffling other pieces out that would allow them to wiggle in Lindholm and sign a player that can push the Flames into the where Lindholm and Backlund feels the team can competeZ

[robrob74]

4 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Even Dumba might get stuck in this problematic offseason. Maybe he'd do a 1 year and wait for the climate to change. He hasn't signed yet, so it begs the question. I'd love to have him, but we seem frozen, almost begging players to stay, which is sad unto itself. Sitting on your hands wanting more doesn't inspire change.

I think the flames should trade the players. You said it here, begging to stay. 
 

trade them, that's around 15m in cap that could be used for something more.