2022 Offseason

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

With Huberdeau and Weager we are back at "one more piece" territory and I hope BT doesn't go shy this time.  Pay whatever the price we need to pay to get that #2C... Barzal-level or equivalent.  Keep checking in with Kadri.  If the season begins without a #2C, then keep talking to WPG about Scheifele throughout the season.

 

BT and Sutter's final years so let's go all in.  Conserve nothing.  

 

Book

 

Here's the problem....we are one more piece, and I mean a big piece, just to get back to where we were. 

Huber+Weegar <<<< Tkachuk Gaudeau

 

We need another big piece just to get back to being totally obliterated in the playoffs.   And Huberdeau 's playoff step-up is about the same as Gaudreau's.

 

Foe contender status we might need 2-3 pieced, including upgrades on C and D.    Goaltending is another issue

 

 

[JustAFlamer]

If we were/are going to sign Huberdeau my guess is the time would be now.

 

just make it the same as Gaudreau contract (9.75x7) or even Tkachuk (9.5x8) and add $1 (kinda like CAR did on offer sheet as statement)

 

even with the control they had (JG picking from bidders in UFA) etc. that should be the top end at this moment

if drag it on into season, (or kadri gets insane contract) the benchmark will change and would probably need to add

 

dont lowball or haggle, simply go at it with all cards on table

[tmac70]

7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

With Huberdeau and Weager we are back at "one more piece" territory and I hope BT doesn't go shy this time.  Pay whatever the price we need to pay to get that #2C... Barzal-level or equivalent.  Keep checking in with Kadri.  If the season begins without a #2C, then keep talking to WPG about Scheifele throughout the season.

 

BT and Sutter's final years so let's go all in.  Conserve nothing.  

Love the additions, but have to disagree on the one piece territory. Was talking with a collegue about this yesterday. The addition of a #2 center would move you into a better position, and depending on that addition, I would say your 1-2 more pieces away. We are better set on D than last year IMHO, and despite what JJ belives goaltending is not a spot of weakness at the moment. If you were to add Barzal or Kadri than I think your one more piece away, anything less than that quality your 2-3 pieces away.  Kadri/Barzel move definetly move the needle closer but you still need some depth on wing. Either of these players added you have to move Monahan, Lucic, one of either Hanifin, Kylington or Valmaki off the roster.  With Kadri or Barzel your top 3 Centers we are deep, Lindhom, Kadri/Barzel, Backs.  Toffoli needs players with speed, Mags needs a playmaker. 

 

I think Rodrieguis is a good add, but thats me. Kind of remind me of a Hyman type versitile player. Statney to me is a no go, hate the age and really is just a 2.0 version of Backs IMHO. So long winded I do agree with Hubie and Weegar we moved the needle back close to where we were but not to serious contender status. I still advocate we will be in contender status if when Backs is your 3rd line center, and Lucic is not on the roster. 

 

[JTech780]

So it sounds like Kadri is going to the Islanders, but they have to clear cap

space first. 
 

I doubt they are moving Barzal even though I would love to add him, I doubt it’s happening. Even if it was I think Lindholm would be the guy going the other way.

 

I think they will move one of Beauvilier or Bailey. I could see either being a fit, if Lucic ends up getting traded. There has been some rumblings that the Bruins might want him back.

[tmac70]

7 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

So it sounds like Kadri is going to the Islanders, but they have to clear cap

space first. 
 

I doubt they are moving Barzal even though I would love to add him, I doubt it’s happening. Even if it was I think Lindholm would be the guy going the other way.

 

I think they will move one of Beauvilier or Bailey. I could see either being a fit, if Lucic ends up getting traded. There has been some rumblings that the Bruins might want him back.

Just out of curiosity, So Kadri whines he wants to go to a contender but does him signing in NYI make them more of a contender or does signing with us make us more of a contender. I just don't see the how he pushes them to contender status. IMHO it comes down to he really just doesn't wish to be here

[robrob74]

Since his rookie year Barzal's numbers, if prorated to 82 games each season are this: 

Year: - Points:

17/18 - 85pts

18/19 - 62pts

19/20 - 73pts

20/21 - 67pts

21/22 - 66pts

 

i get what MP5209 is saying. What is his actual worth? 
 

is he a 1st or 2nd line C? He's young, so there could be more growth?

[Thebrewcrew]

I thought NYI might entertain Barzal for Tkachuk. Obviously, not. Now the only way I see them moving Barzal is next year and that's if he takes the Tkachuk path and is not interested in a long-term deal with NYI

 

I said earlier, I'd be really interested in Beauvillier. He's got the tools, just hasn't consistently put it together. It wouldn't cost a lot, maybe the Bjorkstrand pacakage at most.

Beauvillier is from the MTL area as well, as is Huberdeau. 

 

 

Still think the Flames need one more forward that can score 15-20 goals. He also brings an element of speed, which is not currently a strength of the Flames

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Since his rookie year Barzal's numbers, if prorated to 82 games each season are this: 

Year: - Points:

17/18 - 85pts

18/19 - 62pts

19/20 - 73pts

20/21 - 67pts

21/22 - 66pts

 

i get what MP5209 is saying. What is his actual worth? 
 

is he a 1st or 2nd line C? He's young, so there could be more growth?

 

I think you have to be carefull when isolating points.  Have to look at the big picture.  He has 311 points in 362 games.  Kyle Connor has 344 in 384 games.  In Barzal's best year he had Tavares and Anders Lee scoring 37 and 40 goals.  In other words, sometimes who you play with makes a big difference.  Connors has had the likes of Laine, Sheifele and Ehlers, but scores more than he passes.  Barzal is more dependent on being the playmaker.  

[MP5029]

18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Since his rookie year Barzal's numbers, if prorated to 82 games each season are this: 

Year: - Points:

17/18 - 85pts

18/19 - 62pts

19/20 - 73pts

20/21 - 67pts

21/22 - 66pts

 

i get what MP5209 is saying. What is his actual worth? 
 

is he a 1st or 2nd line C? He's young, so there could be more growth?

That’s all I’m driving at…there is a risk he’s a 60pt player only so giving up a lot is ? Kinda like Bennet was a risk for

Fla…it paid off but they also didn’t over pay for Bennet either, which I what I’m getting at for Barzal.

 

Do I think he’s a legit #2 Ctr…that remains to be seen, but so many people had issues with Bennet and Monahan having to be surrounded by good players to

excel…there are indications that Barzal could be the same…

 

is he worth getting? Yes absolutely, for the right price he totally is if you look at him as is, definitely a top tier #3 Ctr with potential…key here is potential of being a solid #2 Ctr…but I’m saying that, you need to be looking at trading for a top tier #3 Ctr not as a potential #2, I think some are weighing him higher than he is based on his draft perigee and potential. 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Love the additions, but have to disagree on the one piece territory. Was talking with a collegue about this yesterday. The addition of a #2 center would move you into a better position, and depending on that addition, I would say your 1-2 more pieces away. We are better set on D than last year IMHO, and despite what JJ belives goaltending is not a spot of weakness at the moment. If you were to add Barzal or Kadri than I think your one more piece away, anything less than that quality your 2-3 pieces away.  Kadri/Barzel move definetly move the needle closer but you still need some depth on wing. Either of these players added you have to move Monahan, Lucic, one of either Hanifin, Kylington or Valmaki off the roster.  With Kadri or Barzel your top 3 Centers we are deep, Lindhom, Kadri/Barzel, Backs.  Toffoli needs players with speed, Mags needs a playmaker. 

 

I think Rodrieguis is a good add, but thats me. Kind of remind me of a Hyman type versitile player. Statney to me is a no go, hate the age and really is just a 2.0 version of Backs IMHO. So long winded I do agree with Hubie and Weegar we moved the needle back close to where we were but not to serious contender status. I still advocate we will be in contender status if when Backs is your 3rd line center, and Lucic is not on the roster. 

 

 

It's pretty obvious that we need more than one player, but it's not multiple players like Tkachuk.  We have 9F that are NHL players that played full seasons.  10 once Mangiapane signs.  Monahan at anything less than a 2C is not improving us.  For sake of argument, let's look at the roster with Kadri or Barzal but no Monahan:

 

Hubie-Lindholm-Mange

?-Barzal-Toffoli

Coleman-Backlund-Dube

Lucic-Rooney-Lewis

 

or 

 

Hubie-Lindholm-Mange

?-Kadri-Toffoli

Coleman-Backlund-Dube

Lucic-Rooney-Lewis

 

Is that really more than one player off?  A Rodriguez or Milano set on 2LW fills a hole.  Having two possible scoring lines makes us deeper than just the scoring of Mange on the 2nd line and all the top line scoring.  None of those lines are a black hole for scoring and being scored on.  Are we really any less of a contender than we were this past year?  Last year we had a 3rd line that didn't really score a ton or keep the puck out.  Monahan was a bit of a hindrance for the 4th line with his lack of speed and not really being a great defensive C.  

[Thebrewcrew]

Bratt is coming off a 73pt season on a bad NJ team. Career .66pt/g and only 24. These negotiations typically result in the player and team splitting the difference. I'm not good at math but I believe that puts the number at around 5.3m.

 

Mang is a little older than Bratt and has been slightly less productive. I'd imagine the Flames are keeping an eye on how the Bratt deal ends up playing-out. The number for Mang could end up being closer to 5 than 6. Of course it all comes down to term though 

[MP5029]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

It's pretty obvious that we need more than one player, but it's not multiple players like Tkachuk.  We have 9F that are NHL players that played full seasons.  10 once Mangiapane signs.  Monahan at anything less than a 2C is not improving us.  For sake of argument, let's look at the roster with Kadri or Barzal but no Monahan:

 

Hubie-Lindholm-Mange

?-Barzal-Toffoli

Coleman-Backlund-Dube

Lucic-Rooney-Lewis

 

or 

 

Hubie-Lindholm-Mange

?-Kadri-Toffoli

Coleman-Backlund-Dube

Lucic-Rooney-Lewis

 

Is that really more than one player off?  A Rodriguez or Milano set on 2LW fills a hole.  Having two possible scoring lines makes us deeper than just the scoring of Mange on the 2nd line and all the top line scoring.  None of those lines are a black hole for scoring and being scored on.  Are we really any less of a contender than we were this past year?  Last year we had a 3rd line that didn't really score a ton or keep the puck out.  Monahan was a bit of a hindrance for the 4th line with his lack of speed and not really being a great defensive C.  

First, FO’s Monahan has been a difference even the past two years gone by with Injuries he’s been a solid FO Ctr which is huge, we seen that drop off soon as he was gone, nearly cost the Dal series and definitely cost us Vs Edm…

 

second, Manji has not been very good on the RW in the past, I’m not sure moving him to RW is the answer there…Sure Tachuck adapted well but he’s a rare breed, and as god as Manji is, I don’t think he’s the type you should try flipping, besides you need something of a 2nd line…

 

having said all this, I do agree we are only one one key top 9 player away, but it’s not Ctr (though upgrades to Ctr are always welcome) I don’t think it’s a priority, need a physical RW that can pass/be a playmaker.

Hibie/Lindholm/Toffoil 

Manji/Monahan/?

Coleman/Backlund/Dube

Lucic/Ruzi/Russ

Lewis

 

or in an ideal situation…Pelletier and Ruzi stick…

 

Hibie/Lindholm/Toffoil 

Manji/Monahan/?

Pelletier/Backlund/Coleman 

Dube/Ruzi/Russ

Licic (pref traded)

Lewis

 

all things being equal, there is still one pice missing even if you jostled the lines around, even if Monahan is pushed down or can’t start…Regardless, the RW option are limited especially at the #2 line area.

 

 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Book

 

Here's the problem....we are one more piece, and I mean a big piece, just to get back to where we were. 

Huber+Weegar <<<< Tkachuk Gaudeau

 

We need another big piece just to get back to being totally obliterated in the playoffs.   And Huberdeau 's playoff step-up is about the same as Gaudreau's.

 

Foe contender status we might need 2-3 pieced, including upgrades on C and D.    Goaltending is another issue

 

 

 

Right but Huberdeau+Barzal > Gaudreau+Tkachuk.  That's why we are one Barzal-level away.  Center is more important than Wing.  Also, Weager>Gudbranson so we've added to our D.

 

There's still work to do don't get me wrong but the major pieces would be mostly intact if we can just add one more top Center.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Love the additions, but have to disagree on the one piece territory. Was talking with a collegue about this yesterday. The addition of a #2 center would move you into a better position, and depending on that addition, I would say your 1-2 more pieces away. We are better set on D than last year IMHO, and despite what JJ belives goaltending is not a spot of weakness at the moment. If you were to add Barzal or Kadri than I think your one more piece away, anything less than that quality your 2-3 pieces away.  Kadri/Barzel move definetly move the needle closer but you still need some depth on wing. Either of these players added you have to move Monahan, Lucic, one of either Hanifin, Kylington or Valmaki off the roster.  With Kadri or Barzel your top 3 Centers we are deep, Lindhom, Kadri/Barzel, Backs.  Toffoli needs players with speed, Mags needs a playmaker. 

 

I think Rodrieguis is a good add, but thats me. Kind of remind me of a Hyman type versitile player. Statney to me is a no go, hate the age and really is just a 2.0 version of Backs IMHO. So long winded I do agree with Hubie and Weegar we moved the needle back close to where we were but not to serious contender status. I still advocate we will be in contender status if when Backs is your 3rd line center, and Lucic is not on the roster. 

 

I would like to add a true #1 D in addition to adding Barzal but just adding Barzal alone could be enough.

 

I do believe Barzal was disgruntled in his last contract negotiation with NYI and hasn't been motivated to perform.  If we can bring him here and surround him with the right players, then Barzal is Gaudreau as a Center.  90-points+.  Barzal is better at making offense out of nothing and being creative than Lindholm.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Hibie/Lindholm/Toffoil 

Manji/Monahan/?

Coleman/Backlund/Dube

Lucic/Ruzi/Russ

Lewis

 

or in an ideal situation…Pelletier and Ruzi stick…

 

Hibie/Lindholm/Toffoil 

Manji/Monahan/?

Pelletier/Backlund/Coleman 

Dube/Ruzi/Russ

Licic (pref traded)

Lewis

 

Not sure who Russ is.  I know we signed Rooney as a potential 4C.  Projecting monahan to a 2C role after his lacklustre performance with Dube and Mange at points in the season is pretty extreme.  He was healthy then and didn't really do much.  I was a big Monahan fan, but his game took a steep dive away from Gaudreau and has fellen off the cliff without an elite playmaker or anywhere else.  Mangoapane is a threat to score anywhere on the ice.  If it's a rush with Hubie and Lindy, he will be driving the net.  If it's a pass from the LW, he's one timing it in the slot.  Lindy is smart enough to never leave any holes.  Also, Mangiapane shooting from the off wing is as deadly as Tkachuk.  Remeber that goal against Otter?  Was the right circle shot.

 

Having a top 6 C means we have two scoring lines.  A playmaking C helps drive offense.  I don't care if it's Toffoli on the top line or Mange, we have a top 6 winger to fill.  RW are harder to pick up.  LW can be a middle 6 guy that stretches with a good playmaker C.

 

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would like to add a true #1 D in addition to adding Barzal but just adding Barzal alone could be enough.

 

I do believe Barzal was disgruntled in his last contract negotiation with NYI and hasn't been motivated to perform.  If we can bring him here and surround him with the right players, then Barzal is Gaudreau as a Center.  90-points+.  Barzal is better at making offense out of nothing and being creative than Lindholm.

 

Having 2 scoring lines and a top defensive line is as essential as an additional (or default) #1D.  We were a top 2 D away from being a really deep defense last year.  We had puck movers and Satoshi Nakamotodown D.  We had one scoring line and Mangiapane.  We had a gritty 4th line.  We had a 3rd line that accomplished little.  

[sak22]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would like to add a true #1 D in addition to adding Barzal but just adding Barzal alone could be enough.

 

I do believe Barzal was disgruntled in his last contract negotiation with NYI and hasn't been motivated to perform.  If we can bring him here and surround him with the right players, then Barzal is Gaudreau as a Center.  90-points+.  Barzal is better at making offense out of nothing and being creative than Lindholm.

I believe the coaching had a role in that, his production under Trotz is hard to justify paying big bucks.  Trotz is gone and I think that part of the reason is to make Barzal happy.  He isn't going anywhere this summer.

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would like to add a true #1 D in addition to adding Barzal but just adding Barzal alone could be enough.

 

I do believe Barzal was disgruntled in his last contract negotiation with NYI and hasn't been motivated to perform.  If we can bring him here and surround him with the right players, then Barzal is Gaudreau as a Center.  90-points+.  Barzal is better at making offense out of nothing and being creative than Lindholm.

So whats the price tag for Barzal, has to been a top 6 forward top 4 dman and a 1st and prospect, he  has to return what Chucky got? So does Monahan, Valimaki, Hanifin, Zary and 1st do it. 

[phoenix66]

Fingers crossed this is true and the number is good

 

 

 

[phoenix66]

32 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Fingers crossed this is true and the number is good

 

 

 

Im thinking its a troll but hey we can dream .lol

[travel_dude]

49 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

So whats the price tag for Barzal, has to been a top 6 forward top 4 dman and a 1st and prospect, he  has to return what Chucky got? So does Monahan, Valimaki, Hanifin, Zary and 1st do it. 

 

I think it's similar to what Chucky brought back, but maybe closer to what CAR was offering.  FLA overpaid in any stretch of the imagination.  Sure, a top 3 player under 25, but FLA paid for the long term deal and the idea of what Tkachuk could do to their team.  He doesn't turn Bennett into a 40 goal guy.  Barkov is good enough to make him look good, though.  

 

Any Barzal trade is to get rid of the player.  Signing Kadri doesn't get them to be a contender, it's a guy that also is a playmaker.  I would think that if you substitute Kylington, you help them manage the cap better in future years.  Monahan is not enough though, even at 50%.  Has to include Dube as a young F.  

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Im thinking its a troll but hey we can dream .lol

 

This guy is a wannabe with no insight.

He may be repeating something he read elsewhere, but I doubt it.

Last week it was Kadri close to signing.

Then Sam Steele.

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

I believe the coaching had a role in that, his production under Trotz is hard to justify paying big bucks.  Trotz is gone and I think that part of the reason is to make Barzal happy.  He isn't going anywhere this summer.

 

Probably true.  But reports are that Barzal and NYI are far apart on an extension so hopefully he is available.

 

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

So whats the price tag for Barzal, has to been a top 6 forward top 4 dman and a 1st and prospect, he  has to return what Chucky got? So does Monahan, Valimaki, Hanifin, Zary and 1st do it. 

 

Ya unfortunately, we likely don't have the pieces to get it done.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Probably true.  But reports are that Barzal and NYI are far apart on an extension so hopefully he is available.

 

 

Ya unfortunately, we likely don't have the pieces to get it done.

 

I don't think we have the horses to trade.  I don't know that Toffoli is the right player for them, but if they got Kadri, Barzal doesn't fit their top 3.  Toffoli would look better with Kadri IMHO.  But then we paid a big price already to get him.  

 

The only way we end up with Baezal is that we have the guys that NY really wants.  I don't think Dube moves the needle.  Maybe it's Ras or Hanifin or Kylington, but I doubt it.  Trotz would love those guys though.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Right but Huberdeau+Barzal > Gaudreau+Tkachuk.  That's why we are one Barzal-level away.  Center is more important than Wing.  Also, Weager>Gudbranson so we've added to our D.

 

There's still work to do don't get me wrong but the major pieces would be mostly intact if we can just add one more top Center.

 

I would say maybe equivalent,  but:

That is equivalent to getting obliterated in the playoffs like last season.

 

We still have 2 key players with no term.

 

It is a catch 22 because if they outperform,  fans will want a cup run no matter how futile.    If they underperformed the tdl return may not be worth it.

 

IMHO the only solution is to get them to outperform and then trade at tdl.  But, most unpopular trade ever