2022 Offseason

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Not comparing, pointing out that we need to consider age…I get moving on from players 27+ especially where long term contracts are considering, guys like Manji, Tachuck etc…those guys you keep, build

around, that’s what we should be doing…

 

I would do 6 years for a 27 year old. Maybe for a 29 year old I'd do a 5 year deal? 6 at the most. But like everyone believes, he is going to want to cash in... 

[robrob74]

49 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Do you want to win the Cup in the next few years or no?  That's all it comes down to.

 

We don't have superstar power after Gaudreau.  He's too important.  And we don't have superstar power playing Center or D which is key.  Not enough difference makers and game changers.  I'm not even sold Markstrom is clutch enough in critical games to be the answer anymore.  

 

I agree on Markstrom. We thought we had goalie covered, but he hadn't done any better than Talbot in the end. He was amazing vs the Stars (what we thought we signed), but looked like a completely different goalie in round 2. 

 

If Gaudreau doesn't sign, do we have the ammo to pull off a trade that would fix the hole he'd leave? I don't think we do, or I don't think we can mortgage the future for it. Can we expect any of the young players to come up and make a difference? 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

In a way, BT made his bed.  I would imaging that he was giving a far less competitive offer last summer, since Gaudreau had just come off a career low for points.  If it was a really good offer, it might have been signed.  That's just a possible reason, but would make sense.  Johnny didn't want to keep negotiating when the season started, but at the time we had fewer cap constraints. 

 

To your point, we really don't have much choice but to offer a max deal.  Make it as attractive as possible with bonus structure and front loading (if that is what he wants to do).  A failure to get him signed would be viewed as a failure of the GM by fans.  The team might recover.  Eventually.  But the hard work they pout in this last season goes out the window.     

 

I think that BT has been good at the lower offers and I wondered if he low-balled Johnny in the last negotiations. I wondered if Johnny was a bit sore on the fact that Tkachuk became the higher paid player. But it's all under the bridge now, but I wonder if those earlier negotiations play into it? Maybe the don't. One thing Calgary has going for them is the kind of city it is. I think his family has been quite impressed with it, as a family oriented city. Of course, that is just going off what we hear from here. 

 

So, in a sense, now, I wonder if it gets down to what his wife will actually want. His family sounds excited to visit Calgary when they do. They probably get a star's treatment by fans. 

 

I don't really know how to recover if they do lose Johnny. 

[sak22]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

The Avs had the luxury, or incompetence, to select 1st oa with a bonafide star. Then again, 4thoa with Makar in the laughable 2017 draft, via laughable trade (not protecting the 1st Ottawa). Rantanen at 10, 2010 2nd oa with Landeskog.

None of this stuff did we have the ability to do, so comparing us to the Avs isn't relevant.

The Ottawa first was Byram not Makar, but Makar is just an example of how things can work out the '17 Avs were the worst team in the cap era, lose all 3 lottery draws but still get the best player.  The kicker with Ottawa was they had the choice of '18 or '19 and went with keeping it for Tkachuk, and went on to finish last in '19 giving Colorado the best odds for Hughes, even with losing the lottery in '19 that '19 draft already looks more promising than '18, nothing against Brady but I like the upside of Byram, Seider, Zegras more than him.

 

One thing to note with the Avs vs. Tampa or even if we want to compare to Calgary, they haven't really hit on anything outside of their top 10's, Newhook should be a solid player, but their only picks to play significant role in the run were Landsekog, Mackinnon, Rantanen, Makar, Byram and Newhook with one home grown UDFA O'Connor.  Also if you think Calgary's goalie development is bad, look at their history.  I know after a season is over there is an urge to follow the most recent champions path, but this is a difficult one to follow.  There is definitely some luck on their side, but credit goes to management for not making huge changes after the one season, credit to the players like Mackinnon and Landy who turned their careers around after that season.  Also with Mackinnon he had a couple down years to end his elc and he took a longer term deal that became a steal for them, nowadays high picks who show some promise have gotten huge 2nd deals (Eichel, Hughes) or go shorter term (Dahlin, Laine).  Very difficult roadmap to follow.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

We have about 1% chance to sign Forsberg.  He simply has too many options out there and likely won't choose Calgary.

 

So given that, where are the Flames without Gaudreau and don't have Forsberg?  Let alone, if we sign everyone else like Tkachuk, Kylington, Zadorov, Gudbranson, etc, then Gaudreau's money is used up and no more money to add a superstar.

 

Why is that?

 

I can for sure get behind the idea that Calgary is not a big free agent destination but they can offer him the money, they have a talented team he is joining (even if they lose Gaudreau) and they've got a huge Swedish contingent that could help sell him on it. 

 

I'm not convinced Forsberg, likely Gaudrau, goes to UFA but if he does i'm not sure i'd agree that Calgary would be that low on the list. 

[cross16]

4 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think that BT has been good at the lower offers and I wondered if he low-balled Johnny in the last negotiations. I wondered if Johnny was a bit sore on the fact that Tkachuk became the higher paid player. But it's all under the bridge now, but I wonder if those earlier negotiations play into it? Maybe the don't. One thing Calgary has going for them is the kind of city it is. I think his family has been quite impressed with it, as a family oriented city. Of course, that is just going off what we hear from here. 

 

So, in a sense, now, I wonder if it gets down to what his wife will actually want. His family sounds excited to visit Calgary when they do. They probably get a star's treatment by fans. 

 

I don't really know how to recover if they do lose Johnny. 

 

FWIW, Steinberg wrote last week it's his understanding that Gaudreau and the Flames came very close to a deal before training camp. That likely doesn't happen is he is being low balled. 

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

FWIW, Steinberg wrote last week it's his understanding that Gaudreau and the Flames came very close to a deal before training camp. That likely doesn't happen is he is being low balled. 

 

OH, and I was meaning when he signed the 6+ contract he just finished... I didn't mean this re-negotiation at all. 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

Frank Seravalli... Last week, basically the Flames and Gaudreau are talking.  The pitch/offer has been made.  Gaudreau camp is not answering yet... there are no negotiations coming from the Gaudreau camp.  All is silent.

 

 

 

This is drumming up a story to me because it's a terrible analogy.  A marriage proposal isn't a negotiation but this is and there is a prescribed deadline in place for the answer. 

 

Silence right now doesn't bother me. Silence a week-10 day from now then yes that's not a good sign. 

[sak22]

16 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I agree on Markstrom. We thought we had goalie covered, but he hadn't done any better than Talbot in the end. He was amazing vs the Stars (what we thought we signed), but looked like a completely different goalie in round 2. 

 

If Gaudreau doesn't sign, do we have the ammo to pull off a trade that would fix the hole he'd leave? I don't think we do, or I don't think we can mortgage the future for it. Can we expect any of the young players to come up and make a difference? 

I think when we have just seen one of the greatest runs you have seen by a goalie (in my memory at least) over the past 3 playoffs it can cloud expectations for goalies.  What happened to Markstrom in that series it is hard to find a goalie who doesn't go through the same stuff, in fact Vasy himself was very bad in the Columbus sweep.  Some of Pittsburgh's best chances to add more cups during '09-'16 were undone by MAF playing brutal, and he has also come undone in series for Vegas and Minny, but people here view him as goalie Jesus and the one that got away.

[The_People1]

 

[conundrumed]

10 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

THW are pretty much the National Enquirer of Hockey imo. Pretty trashy clickbait.

[cross16]

12 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

THW are pretty much the National Enquirer of Hockey imo. Pretty trashy clickbait.

 

One of the many annoying parts of the rise of social media and expanding of publications is you get stuff like this. Look we all acknowledge what that writer is suggesting is possible but why write an article speculating it with no facts to back it up?

 

There is nothing in that article that we don't already know. I don't really get the purpose of writing it and what point you are trying to get across. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

I would do 6 years for a 27 year old. Maybe for a 29 year old I'd do a 5 year deal? 6 at the most. But like everyone believes, he is going to want to cash in... 

 

One thing to keep in mind is that JH plays a type of game that transitions well to later in his career.  He's not crashing and banging like Hyman.  The other thing to remember is that you pay more for short deals.  5 years costs you 12M for instance.  And the idea is to try to pay now where the cap is lower than paying more when the cap is way higher.  By about 24/25 or perhaps the following year, the cap will jump a large amount.

[tmac70]

A rebuilt is no less a risk than what is currently going on before us. There is no certainty that we will be furhter ahead than we are now. Losing JG would be a huge lose, with no one externally or internally to fill the void at present. Mags is not going to fill the void. Regardless of whether he stays or goes Trevling is going to have to arrange some pieces to make it work. If he stays who leaves, someone has to be sacrificed to make the dollars work, if he goes than who is inserted to try to fill the void. If anything we can be sure of there will be changes lol

[The_People1]

Assuming Gaudreau is not going to re-sign with us, is there a way to move Gaudreau to Philly and get their 5th overall pick?  I assume taking Van Riemsdyk as a cap dump is a must but do we have to add a lot more?

 

 

[conundrumed]

10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

One of the many annoying parts of the rise of social media and expanding of publications is you get stuff like this. Look we all acknowledge what that writer is suggesting is possible but why write an article speculating it with no facts to back it up?

 

There is nothing in that article that we don't already know. I don't really get the purpose of writing it and what point you are trying to get across. 

We're on the same plain my friend. We could write for them. Seriously. But why.lol

I already know there's nothing there that I'll waste time reading.

I'm pretty sure I saw 1 of their headlines being, "Trade Proposal: Draisaitl to Detroit for 4 pieces".lol

Why bother with that clickbait, it's developmentally-delayed, if that's the new, non-offensive way of saying idiot.

 

Maybe a good talking point would be how narrow the talent gap has become in international play amongst the young talent.

[MP5029]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

In Hindsight, in your theory, I can get behind actually, it would have been a lot better to trade Gaudreau a season or two ago. Perhaps even after his 99 point season, it might have been a good move. Getting something really good last year would have been ideal to help move those younger players forward in a few years. Not to keep harping on Monahan, I could always tell something was a bit off whenever he got into injury and when play got tighter it got harder for them. For me, he has always been immobile. I love his shot...

 

The year Lindholm got to Calgary I also thought he should be the Center. Hardly anyone agreed with me because he was The Right Wing we needed. 

 

I like the theory of keeping the young guys. My only worry is that once we find players to compliment them, they're going to be 30. Can we keep Lindholm as that #1C and is he that without Johnny? Does he get it done well enough with say, Mangipane and Tkachuk on his line? Do we need a Forsberg or something to replace Johnny in the meantime? I don't mind there being a mix of young and old. Would Forsberg sign with Calgary, and is he still the player he was a few years ago? 

 

 

All good questions and points…I guess we will find out on or after 13 Jul….

 

though I’d say keeping Manji and Tachuck would be sensible…but if you can’t re-up Gaudreau and can’t replace him I think they need to start considering moving guys like Lindholm…pretty much anyone 26+ would be 30+ once you re-tool and get the new kids in the lineup…I think

[sak22]

25 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

Assuming Gaudreau is not going to re-sign with us, is there a way to move Gaudreau to Philly and get their 5th overall pick?  I assume taking Van Riemsdyk as a cap dump is a must but do we have to add a lot more?

 

 

We'd need to add more, negotiation rights aren't worth that much and JVR isn't that problematic as a cap dump as it is only one year and not the worst to buy out.  I don't even think if they had a 2nd it would even be on the table as it would be a high 2nd.  It would really set a different precedent for an organization being desperate to talk to a player, in Philly it would be a nice story for a day if he signed there but the fans there really could care less where a players from if the team isn't performing.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, sak22 said:

I think when we have just seen one of the greatest runs you have seen by a goalie (in my memory at least) over the past 3 playoffs it can cloud expectations for goalies.  What happened to Markstrom in that series it is hard to find a goalie who doesn't go through the same stuff, in fact Vasy himself was very bad in the Columbus sweep.  Some of Pittsburgh's best chances to add more cups during '09-'16 were undone by MAF playing brutal, and he has also come undone in series for Vegas and Minny, but people here view him as goalie Jesus and the one that got away.

 

I was definitely one against MAF at the time we could have had him. I remember the flubs too often. But it does go to show the sharpness of mind goalies need to succeed. Just a few off days could equate to a lack of mental toughness. Those are good examples of how it can change and it's fluid.

[robrob74]

54 minutes ago, sak22 said:

We'd need to add more, negotiation rights aren't worth that much and JVR isn't that problematic as a cap dump as it is only one year and not the worst to buy out.  I don't even think if they had a 2nd it would even be on the table as it would be a high 2nd.  It would really set a different precedent for an organization being desperate to talk to a player, in Philly it would be a nice story for a day if he signed there but the fans there really could care less where a players from if the team isn't performing.

 

I think the only way to get that pick would be if they want the 8th year and we sign that deal then trade him there? and if JVR is a cap dump in the process? Other than that, I agree with you, it would be a 2nd or 3rd rounder for signing rights.

[sak22]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think the only way to get that pick would be if they want the 8th year and we sign that deal then trade him there? and if JVR is a cap dump in the process? Other than that, I agree with you, it would be a 2nd or 3rd rounder for signing rights.

Yeah I don't know if any team really wants the 8th year, its the best chip Calgary has but not really advantageous given his age, but I don't think Philly wants to give up a top asset to get that extra year.  Who knows if he even wants to go there, team doesn't look that promising, I really don't know why we've let the narrative of this guy only wants to go home.  I don't know, maybe he does but I don't think this guy is any closer to his family than many others but the media just gravitates to that family when they are here.  I don't know, are people in Denver worried that Makar is coming here in 5 years because he seems close to his family.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, sak22 said:

We'd need to add more, negotiation rights aren't worth that much and JVR isn't that problematic as a cap dump as it is only one year and not the worst to buy out.  I don't even think if they had a 2nd it would even be on the table as it would be a high 2nd.  It would really set a different precedent for an organization being desperate to talk to a player, in Philly it would be a nice story for a day if he signed there but the fans there really could care less where a players from if the team isn't performing.

 

True, the add would have to be pretty significant.  I don't believe Philly wants to do the 8th year either but they need to move vanRiemsdyk's salary to even have a chance to sign Gaudreau.  After that, Philly needs D so maybe Kylington + Flames 2nd round pick.

[The_People1]

Bob McKenzie trying to be edgy by ranking Juraj Slafkovsky #1 ahead of Shane Wright.  I don't know much about either to be honest but it seems Wright had a disappointing/average season by #1 overall standards.  In comparison, Slafkovsky flashed elite tools/size/skill and his NHL ceiling/potential pushes above Wright.

 

I post this because in the event MTL goes crazy and leaves Wright on the board for #2,... And the Devils want to move the #2 for Tkachuk... we should do it right?  Wright is a Center and we need a franchise Center.  Lindholm is great and all but a Wright/Lindholm 1/2 sounds pretty good.

 

I imagine NJ wouldn't want to draft Wright because they already have Hughes and Hischier... Or do they draft Wright and trade us Hischier for Tkachuk?

 

https://www.tsn.ca/juraj-slafkovsky-shane-wright-bob-mckenzie-nhl-draft-ranking-1.1818585

[MP5029]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

Bob McKenzie trying to be edgy by ranking Juraj Slafkovsky #1 ahead of Shane Wright.  I don't know much about either to be honest but it seems Wright had a disappointing/average season by #1 overall standards.  In comparison, Slafkovsky flashed elite tools/size/skill and his NHL ceiling/potential pushes above Wright.

 

I post this because in the event MTL goes crazy and leaves Wright on the board for #2,... And the Devils want to move the #2 for Tkachuk... we should do it right?  Wright is a Center and we need a franchise Center.  Lindholm is great and all but a Wright/Lindholm 1/2 sounds pretty good.

 

I imagine NJ wouldn't want to draft Wright because they already have Hughes and Hischier... Or do they draft Wright and trade us Hischier for Tkachuk?

 

https://www.tsn.ca/juraj-slafkovsky-shane-wright-bob-mckenzie-nhl-draft-ranking-1.1818585

I think if Gaudreau wants to leave, you re-up Tachuck, Manji long term, bring back Big Z and shop the UFA field for another LW.

 

after that maybe look at trades for Backlund, Monahan (maybe) and Lucic…

 

then go back to UFA and fill out the bottom part of the line up 

 

after that evaluation of some AHL guys like Ruzi and Pelletier and see if they can do better than some of the “filler” UFA’s…maybe trade some for assets and cap room 

 

***********
 

if not that then go full burn and trade everyone and Draft like crazy in 2022 and 2023.

[conundrumed]

19 hours ago, sak22 said:

The Ottawa first was Byram not Makar, but Makar is just an example of how things can work out the '17 Avs were the worst team in the cap era, lose all 3 lottery draws but still get the best player.  The kicker with Ottawa was they had the choice of '18 or '19 and went with keeping it for Tkachuk, and went on to finish last in '19 giving Colorado the best odds for Hughes, even with losing the lottery in '19 that '19 draft already looks more promising than '18, nothing against Brady but I like the upside of Byram, Seider, Zegras more than him.

 

One thing to note with the Avs vs. Tampa or even if we want to compare to Calgary, they haven't really hit on anything outside of their top 10's, Newhook should be a solid player, but their only picks to play significant role in the run were Landsekog, Mackinnon, Rantanen, Makar, Byram and Newhook with one home grown UDFA O'Connor.  Also if you think Calgary's goalie development is bad, look at their history.  I know after a season is over there is an urge to follow the most recent champions path, but this is a difficult one to follow.  There is definitely some luck on their side, but credit goes to management for not making huge changes after the one season, credit to the players like Mackinnon and Landy who turned their careers around after that season.  Also with Mackinnon he had a couple down years to end his elc and he took a longer term deal that became a steal for them, nowadays high picks who show some promise have gotten huge 2nd deals (Eichel, Hughes) or go shorter term (Dahlin, Laine).  Very difficult roadmap to follow.

Thanks sak, I shouldn't rely on my old guy memory. Everybody pales to Makar so I had an exaggeration going on, but yeah, Byram's looking like another top-shelf Dman. Stupid Sens. Wicked trade by Sakic in ditching Duchene(3rd oa also). Flipping Turris for Girard was a nice stroke too.