2022 Offseason

[travel_dude]

^^^^^

Good points.  The structure of the deal will be important.  I wonder if $13M as a high actual during the early years and $6.5M in the latter ones would allow them to construct a deal that works for both.  8 years is basically retirement at the end.  Pay him big bucks now and if his play deteriorates near the end, it's just a high cap hit of say $10.5M.

 

The legacy thing is an interesting thing.  He can very well be the top Flame of all time in many categories.  But I also think they need to revamp the "Forever a Flame" thing. 

 

Johnny's agent can't be out there negotiating with other teams right now, so as long as BT isn't insulting with lowball offers, they should have an idea of what the Flames are willing to pay and what another team would need to come up with to match or exceed it.      

[phoenix66]

50 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I'm in the camp that if Johnny makes it to UFA he is gone. I think the whole draw to UFA is much more attractive to the lower/mid tier players around the league, the type of guys that it only takes 1 GM to fall in love with to overpay and get a contract they weren't thinking they would get. In Johnny's case he and his agent know what he is going to get, so I'm not really buying this whole idea that he will be drawn in by the lure of the UFA process. 

 

The Flames have a few unique things they can offer that other team's can't. They can offer him an 8th year (which likely means the most total $ he will get), they can offer him a legacy (his jersey is getting retired if he stays), and they can offer him a leadership role if he wants it. If he goes UFA that would tell me that those things are not of interest to him and he just wants to play somewhere else. I'm also of the belief that decision will come sooner than we think because again I'm just not buying this idea that he will want to/need to see what is out there.  

 

If the Flames offer him 9.5-10mil AAV on an 8 year deal another club has to give him 11-11.5 mill AAV on a 7 year deal in order to match the total dollars and personally I'm not sure there are many teams lining up to do that. 

100% Bang on my thinking too..

I believe Panarin will be the most used comparable .. his $11.6 x 7  is equivalent to $10.2 x8

while at the same time I'm sure the agent will push back on the proration and ask for $11.6 x 8

 

Im sure that if at any time BT gets the word hes gonna test the market - he should trade his rights asap.. if hes gonna play in the 7 year pool then we can too.. may as well get something out of it either way 

 

But I stil believe this is over before the cup is presented 

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

^^^^^

Good points.  The structure of the deal will be important.  I wonder if $13M as a high actual during the early years and $6.5M in the latter ones would allow them to construct a deal that works for both.  8 years is basically retirement at the end.  Pay him big bucks now and if his play deteriorates near the end, it's just a high cap hit of say $10.5M.

 

The legacy thing is an interesting thing.  He can very well be the top Flame of all time in many categories.  But I also think they need to revamp the "Forever a Flame" thing. 

 

Johnny's agent can't be out there negotiating with other teams right now, so as long as BT isn't insulting with lowball offers, they should have an idea of what the Flames are willing to pay and what another team would need to come up with to match or exceed it.      

dont kid yourself .. discussions are being had.. just not directly ..

GM to agent :   " so suppose I want to go shopping for a top line winger this summer that can get us 30 goals and 100 pts .. and I had $X mill to spend , do you think I could find a deal?"..LOL

[cross16]

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

^^^^^

Good points.  The structure of the deal will be important.  I wonder if $13M as a high actual during the early years and $6.5M in the latter ones would allow them to construct a deal that works for both.  8 years is basically retirement at the end.  Pay him big bucks now and if his play deteriorates near the end, it's just a high cap hit of say $10.5M.

 

The legacy thing is an interesting thing.  He can very well be the top Flame of all time in many categories.  But I also think they need to revamp the "Forever a Flame" thing. 

 

Johnny's agent can't be out there negotiating with other teams right now, so as long as BT isn't insulting with lowball offers, they should have an idea of what the Flames are willing to pay and what another team would need to come up with to match or exceed it.      

 

 

I think that would be discouraging to the Gaudreau camp. I think there will be some difference there but again one of the benefits the Flames have is the 8th year. If you lower the salary in that year and make it more buyout friendly you negate that advantage and suddenly a 7 year deal looks a little more attractive. I think there will be some front loading to the deal but I don't think it would be extreme and I would suspect they would want to put some signing bonuses in the last couple years to offer him some buyout protection. It may feel a bit weird to talk "buyout" in reference to Gaudreau but he will be 37 at the end of 8 years.

[travel_dude]

Just now, cross16 said:

 

 

I think that would be discouraging to the Gaudreau camp. I think there will be some difference there but again one of the benefits the Flames have is the 8th year. If you lower the salary in that year and make it more buyout friendly you negate that advantage and suddenly a 7 year deal looks a little more attractive. I think there will be some front loading to the deal but I don't think it would be extreme and I would suspect they would want to put some signing bonuses in the last couple years to offer him some buyout protection. It may feel a bit weird to talk "buyout" in reference to Gaudreau but he will be 37 at the end of 8 years.

 

I mean it to be more of a selling tool that we pay him big money now.  It's sounds funny talking about it, but the future value of his contract in 8 years is a lot less; inflation, lower buying power of the dollar.  He plays 8 in Calgary, he's getting more than 7 somewhere else.  I doubt any deals elsewhere don't front load the deal.  Tavares was exactly that.  

 

 

[travel_dude]

Flames in the SCF....

 

[conundrumed]

I'm on board with cross.

All of the stimulus to sign here is present, if he chooses not to, it's his choice, he's earned it. Unlike, say Adam Fox.

It would be heartbreaking to see another E. US player do the, "I wanna go home" thing again but he's earned the right.

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Flames in the SCF....

 

Is @420since1974 with him?

[420since1974]

Just now, conundrumed said:

Is @420since1974 with him?

I wish.

[cross16]

27 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I mean it to be more of a selling tool that we pay him big money now.  It's sounds funny talking about it, but the future value of his contract in 8 years is a lot less; inflation, lower buying power of the dollar.  He plays 8 in Calgary, he's getting more than 7 somewhere else.  I doubt any deals elsewhere don't front load the deal.  Tavares was exactly that.  

 

 

 

I do expect some front loading but I don't suspect it will be extreme unless they offset it with bonuses. Tavares deal is front loaded but it's also made up almost entirely of signing bonuses. 

 

And that's all i'm saying. I suspect there will be front loading going on but if you don't offset it with bonuses on the back end you are potentially negating some of the 8th year advantage. 

[LouCifer]

Question to the group: Kucherov is a dynamic, intelligent player no doubt. I'd like to know what you all think of Pastrnak in comparison. I've always viewed them as similar, but Pastrnak as a Kucherov "lite". With Pasta rumored to be on the block, and a legit right-handed RW, do we have any interest in him? I know he has a M-NTC / NMC so do you think he'd be interested in us? 

I'm fabricating a Chucky trade for Pasta here in my mind, and I feel a lot of good dominoes can happen if we acquire him. 

Boston also doesn't have a lot of cap space, so they would have to want Chucky really bad to entertain a deal like this.

We have to watch out for the fact that Pasta has 1 more year left at $6.667M and then he's a UFA. A discussion about re-signing has to take place

The extra year on Pasta's contract buys us time for the Looch contract (and potentially Mony contract if we can't move him this offseason) to come off our books. Read: more cap space opens up at the end of his contract.

Pasta could make Toff expendable (read: trade)

We could potentially roll with a top line that includes Mange as Chucky's replacement, and Pasta being a force on line 2 with whichever 2C we pickup... or

 We could entertain putting Pasta on the top line with Johnny to overwhelm the opposition
 

Lastly, if Forsberg has any interest in signing with us (Swedish connection or something), then the trade above is moot. It's better to pickup Forsberg as a UFA for no assets and cash only, and then use Chucky in a separate trade as detailed earlier (like 2OA, picks, prospects, etc) 

Thoughts? 

 

Edit:

Another suggestion - PK Subban. Playing under Sutter, and assuming he can be had for a deal of a contract, would we be interested in his services regarding PP and offence from the backend for next season? 

[zima]

The Man has served us well he always worked hard and with pride me thinks I will really hate to see him go it will hurt this team big time I believe he is the heart of this team. When he left the NCAA he was true to his word and stayed here when he could have gone any where he wanted he is a person who is few and far between I mean he is a standup guy and I respect him for that. I will beg him if it would help to keep him here but since I'm a nobody it just won't help. Any way please stay JH we love you and most of all we need you.

[zima]

Loucifer Why would you trade MrT he is a huge part of this team and every yr he just keep getting better I don't understand why?

[cross16]

if this is true I think this the type of acquisition the Flames need to target. A player a team wants to get rid off for a certain set of circumstances that could easily change on a new team.

 

Puljujarvi could pop elsewhere and really make a formidable top 9 in Calgary. I'd even be willing to move someone like Kylington/Dube for him. 

 

 

[LouCifer]

6 minutes ago, cross16 said:

if this is true I think this the type of acquisition the Flames need to target. A player a team wants to get rid off for a certain set of circumstances that could easily change on a new team.

 

Puljujarvi could pop elsewhere and really make a formidable top 9 in Calgary. I'd even be willing to move someone like Kylington/Dube for him. 

 

 

 

His finishing percentage scares me, but not as much as he'd totally look like and remind me of:

[sak22]

2 minutes ago, LouCifer said:

 

His finishing percentage scares me, but not as much as he'd totally look like and remind me of:

I believe the finishing is an area that can improve, from what I've seen I think down the stretch this guy put a lot of pressure on himself.  He didn't seem to be a guy Woodcroft was high on.  I think we live in regret over Sam Bennett, but I think a change of scenery could do greater wonders for JP, whereas Bennett just went to the right spot.

 

The only thing that bugs me is his tendency to pick his nose with his tongue.  Just gross.

 

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

if this is true I think this the type of acquisition the Flames need to target. A player a team wants to get rid off for a certain set of circumstances that could easily change on a new team.

 

Puljujarvi could pop elsewhere and really make a formidable top 9 in Calgary. I'd even be willing to move someone like Kylington/Dube for him. 

 

 

 

I look at the player and wonder why he can't figure it out.  If you are not finishing in the top 6 lines, you get dumped in with lesser players.  Going to Europe just made it worse instead of learning and getting better in NA.  They have done that for years with him.  He's a project no doubt, but if any coach could get something out of him, I think Sutter could.  He's not on McDavid's list of faves.   

 

The pros of him vs Dube is his size.  That's my biggest beef with Dube in that he can't seem to get far enough away from the boards to do enough.  Run over and rubbed out too often.  We are helping them with cost certainty with Dube's deal set for 2 years.  Doesn't really help their cap, but they need to do bigger things that just dumping one contract.       

 

He's a low cost option for sure.  EDM is not getting a former 1st rounder for him now.  

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I believe the finishing is an area that can improve, from what I've seen I think down the stretch this guy put a lot of pressure on himself.  He didn't seem to be a guy Woodcroft was high on.  I think we live in regret over Sam Bennett, but I think a change of scenery could do greater wonders for JP, whereas Bennett just went to the right spot.

 

The only thing that bugs me is his tendency to pick his nose with his tongue.  Just gross.

 

He heard about players getting a facewash.  Just takes it upon himself to do it.  Just get him his own towel and he would be fine.  

[travel_dude]

Puljujarvi suffered a shoulder injury and will be on the shelf for 4 weeks.

[The_People1]

39 minutes ago, cross16 said:

if this is true I think this the type of acquisition the Flames need to target. A player a team wants to get rid off for a certain set of circumstances that could easily change on a new team.

 

Puljujarvi could pop elsewhere and really make a formidable top 9 in Calgary. I'd even be willing to move someone like Kylington/Dube for him. 

 

 

 

I'd do Dube/Kylington for Puljujarvi.  I wanted to do Bennett for Puljujarvi last season.

 

I'm just not sure the Oilers want to trade him to a rival.  The Lucic/Neal deal was sort of like both teams had absolutely zero options.  This time, lots of teams should be interested in Puljujarvi.

[The_People1]

54 minutes ago, LouCifer said:

Question to the group: Kucherov is a dynamic, intelligent player no doubt. I'd like to know what you all think of Pastrnak in comparison. I've always viewed them as similar, but Pastrnak as a Kucherov "lite". With Pasta rumored to be on the block, and a legit right-handed RW, do we have any interest in him? I know he has a M-NTC / NMC so do you think he'd be interested in us? 

I'm fabricating a Chucky trade for Pasta here in my mind, and I feel a lot of good dominoes can happen if we acquire him. 

Boston also doesn't have a lot of cap space, so they would have to want Chucky really bad to entertain a deal like this.

We have to watch out for the fact that Pasta has 1 more year left at $6.667M and then he's a UFA. A discussion about re-signing has to take place

The extra year on Pasta's contract buys us time for the Looch contract (and potentially Mony contract if we can't move him this offseason) to come off our books. Read: more cap space opens up at the end of his contract.

Pasta could make Toff expendable (read: trade)

We could potentially roll with a top line that includes Mange as Chucky's replacement, and Pasta being a force on line 2 with whichever 2C we pickup... or

 We could entertain putting Pasta on the top line with Johnny to overwhelm the opposition
 

Lastly, if Forsberg has any interest in signing with us (Swedish connection or something), then the trade above is moot. It's better to pickup Forsberg as a UFA for no assets and cash only, and then use Chucky in a separate trade as detailed earlier (like 2OA, picks, prospects, etc) 

Thoughts? 

 

Edit:

Another suggestion - PK Subban. Playing under Sutter, and assuming he can be had for a deal of a contract, would we be interested in his services regarding PP and offence from the backend for next season? 

 

100% would rather just sign Forsberg via UFA than to give up a ton of assets for Pastrnak only to have to extend him for the same money.  In turn, we can move Tkachuk for other a stud D or something.  I'm not really on board with acquiring Pastrnak because we have bigger needs on D and 2nd line C.

 

 

[Thebrewcrew]

Pasta has a 10 team no trade list and it’s likely that Calgary is one of those teams.

 

Pastrnak is a very good target for the Flames. I just don’t know if they can get it done.

 

If the Bruins are looking to re-tool, they’ll want high end futures and Calgary can easily be outbid. A team like LA is rumoured to be looking for scoring help and they’ve got as rich a pipeline as there is.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, LouCifer said:

Edit:

Another suggestion - PK Subban. Playing under Sutter, and assuming he can be had for a deal of a contract, would we be interested in his services regarding PP and offence from the backend for next season? 

 

Not sure if there is a fit for Subban here.  That RD side is kind of set already.  If Gudbranson leaves then I believe Sutter wants to replace that 3rd D with some size.  Subban is not playing above Tanev or Andersson on the depth chart.  He's not at that level anymore. 

 

I get the lure though.  Sutter turned Gudbranson's career around.  If Sutter can turn Subban's career around then we have a 60-point scoring Dman.

[The_People1]

6 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Pasta has a 10 team no trade list and it’s likely that Calgary is one of those teams.

 

Pastrnak is a very good target for the Flames. I just don’t know if they can get it done.

 

If the Bruins are looking to re-tool, they’ll want high end futures and Calgary can easily be outbid. A team like LA is rumoured to be looking for scoring help and they’ve got as rich a pipeline as there is.

 

Ya there are some rumors LA wants to take the next step into contender status as soon as next season.  They will be willing to use Turcotte, Vilardi, Durzi, their 19thOA pick, and even Byfield (if the return is worth it).  They want to use those mentioned to be in on Chychrun.  IF they can get Chychrun, Doughty comes back healthy, Brandt Clarke makes his NHL debut, Durzi takes yet another step forward, they bring back Maatta... suddenly the Kings D is one of the best in the NHL.

 

BOS has been in Kirby Dach rumours... Why not use Pastrnak to get it done if BOS wants to rebuild?  And no idea what the Blackhawks are doing.  They are the most bi-polar team right now.

[phoenix66]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

if this is true I think this the type of acquisition the Flames need to target. A player a team wants to get rid off for a certain set of circumstances that could easily change on a new team.

 

Puljujarvi could pop elsewhere and really make a formidable top 9 in Calgary. I'd even be willing to move someone like Kylington/Dube for him. 

 

 

I'm typically loathe to do anything that would solve any of the Oilers problems, but I think he's worth the gamble ..

My initial thought was , unless Smith actually does retire..they don't have the funds to go after a Husso or a Campbell.. but Vladar could be an enticing carrot .

He seems start ready ..I'm hesitant cuz I think as a starter he could be really good ..  but we got Wolf who as a backup could certainly be ready .that Russian kid in the us league looking like a real deal as well..

And Vladar has one year left under $1M.. when Smith comes off their books .. 

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Not sure if there is a fit for Subban here.  That RD side is kind of set already.  If Gudbranson leaves then I believe Sutter wants to replace that 3rd D with some size.  Subban is not playing above Tanev or Andersson on the depth chart.  He's not at that level anymore. 

 

I get the lure though.  Sutter turned Gudbranson's career around.  If Sutter can turn Subban's career around then we have a 60-point scoring Dman.

I'd see the fit here.. right price is the key words of course .. with Tanev out and the shuffling, we got caught not fast enough on d .. he does bring some speed and good puck handling 

He played a good d structure in Nashville so don't see why he wouldn't be used properly under Sutter