2021 Offseason Thread

[MP5029]

Yeah, that draft circumvention has always bugged me, something needs to be done to fix that…especially with that NCAA rule…I think if a player uses that they should never be permitted to become a UFA, rather they should become a RFA where by the drafting team is compensated accordingly by the contract the player signs with the new team for same with KHL situations.

 

As for draft re-enter players, if the player forces that (refusing to sign an ECL) then the team redrafting the player needs to compensate the original drafting team the pick the player was originally drafted by…however if it occurs because the original drafting team fails to offer a ECL then they get nothing.

 

too many players think they are “big” shots and deserve whatever they want and some teams loose out…too many loop holes for teams to get screwed over…it needs to be fixed somehow, not just my way, there are others but at the end of the day we are talking about it because it is an issue that needs to be fixed by the NHL

[kehatch]

6 hours ago, Horsman1 said:

unfortunately.. we rarely have a roster spot open for a rookie unless through injury.. Too many 3/4line players signed to contracts..doesn't give much hope to give er hell during pre -season knowing that ultimately.. Yer goin down 

 

That isn't true though. 20/21 was Valimaki, 19/20 was Dube, 18/19 was Mangiapane and Andersson, 17/18 was Jankowski, 16/17 was Tkachuk, etc. In the last 5 years the Flames have played 18 different rookies almost 600 games with an average of 1 top 4D/9F graduating a season. 

[kehatch]

12 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

All they have to do is extend the team's rights for 1 or 2 years after their college eligibility is completed. Like, they can't just sign with just anyone after the college is up. For the full season they're out. And then who ever they sign with must give up a draft pick to the team they sign a player from. Like, how Fox was traded to the Rangers. The team signing has to give the team the draft pick back. 

 

That would require a separate set of rules for US and Canadian players. 

 

I get the concern. I don't like losing drafted players because they get to be free agents before playing a single game. 

 

But those rules exist for a reason, and they are used all of the time for players in all leagues. It's not about the Fox/Gaudreau players. It's for the smaller profile players when their drafting team chooses not to sign them. It's a mechanism for them to be able to sign somewhere else. 

 

We don't see it in high profile players in the CHL because they sign a contract right away. Makes sense for the player and team that are both looking for security. But you can't sign an NCAA player until they leave school, and if they stay the entire 4 years they are a free agent. The CHL player could have also not signed a contract for 4 years and got the same opportunity. 

 

I can't see the NHL PA signing off on special rules for college players, nor do I think they should sign off on them. I wish there was a mechanism to make a player team commitment that didn't violate NCAA rules though. 

[zima]

21 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

He's definitely worth more.   On the ice, I would like to think he can be the better goalie against a 39 year old Smith.  But I expect Sutter will mostly play Markstrom especially against our friends in the North

Sorry my question was on markstrom compared to smith unless of you were talking about Marks then if thats the case I guess BT opps he did it again Dame 

[zima]

Another question and I know right now it is really hard to predict but how do you guys think Wolf will stack up this yr and do you think he will surpass Parsons who I thought was going to be a big part of this team but now not so much although I guess when it comes to goalies anything can happen 

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, zima said:

Sorry my question was on markstrom compared to smith unless of you were talking about Marks then if thats the case I guess BT opps he did it again Dame 

 

It is my firm belief that everything and anything is better than Edmonton

[zima]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

It is my firm belief that everything and anything is better than Edmonton

Ok fair enough I'm a lot Bias myself when it come to the Oilslicks

 

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, zima said:

Another question and I know right now it is really hard to predict but how do you guys think Wolf will stack up this yr and do you think he will surpass Parsons who I thought was going to be a big part of this team but now not so much although I guess when it comes to goalies anything can happen 

 

Wolf is the top goalie prospect we have.  He has to get starrts to really have a fair opinion of him.  I would also say, it's fair to give Parsons and the other new guy a chance with decent defense.  

[jjgallow]

 

 

 

Maybe this needs to be deleted, I'm not actually sure.   The pay sites are crazy annoying.

 

A bunch of other news sites have shown the results though.    Calgary rated 9th worst front office.

 

Edmonton ranked 5th worst.  That's a load, Edmonton is clearly #1 worst.

 

I'm okay with the ranking of 9th worst, and I might even agree that they're being a bit hard on the Flames, despite all my complaining.     I just want to have the best management.   I can't bring myself to pay for what they said.    High chance it's drivel.     I know with Edmonton they said all the obvious things about squandering.

 

[cross16]

Dillon Dube now done. Get's a 3 year deal with an AAV of 2.3mill. Surprised at the term (thought they'd want a 1 year deal) but I like the commitment. I think that deal is going to be excellent value in years 2 and 3

 

Puts Flames at 3 mill of cap space for a 22 person roster with Connor Mackey the last remining RFA to sign. 

 

 

 

[The_People1]

7 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Dillon Dube now done. Get's a 3 year deal with an AAV of 2.3mill. Surprised at the term (thought they'd want a 1 year deal) but I like the commitment. I think that deal is going to be excellent value in years 2 and 3

 

Puts Flames at 3 mill of cap space for a 22 person roster with Connor Mackey the last remining RFA to sign. 

 

 

 

 

I like it.  I wish Mangiapane did a 3 year deal as well but he probably believes this coming season will be his breakout.  Good deal for Dube because he could end up as our top line RW sometime this season.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I like it.  I wish Mangiapane did a 3 year deal as well but he probably believes this coming season will be his breakout.  Good deal for Dube because he could end up as our top line RW sometime this season.

 

Essentially the same deal that Mangiapane got for 2 years.

Get the extra year without increasing too much.

It's high than I expected, but BT believes he will be another Mangiapane level player.

Support your drafted players that are actually raising their values.

[cross16]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I like it.  I wish Mangiapane did a 3 year deal as well but he probably believes this coming season will be his breakout.  Good deal for Dube because he could end up as our top line RW sometime this season.

 

Probably would have had we had the cap space. Looks like the plan is to use the cap space to add some term to the deals being done. 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Probably would have had we had the cap space. Looks like the plan is to use the cap space to add some term to the deals being done. 

We have a little more than $3m in cap remaining, so any big deal will need money going out.

Not that I am sure we will make that kind of deal, but it's the only way we can now.

 

[cross16]

While it's not quite Mang levels there is lots to look at in terms of expecting a bump in Dube's game. How he gets utilized will be key.

 

I don't really see it turning into a bad deal though. Good investment. 

 

 

[jjgallow]

Dube played the smart move and went for term.    I know many on here are expecting him to have a breakout but if you're a smart man that's exactly when you go for the term.   If he does break out he'll still be able to negotiate a sweet deal while still in his prime at 26.   If he doesn't, he's got 3 years of security.

[robrob74]

12 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

That would require a separate set of rules for US and Canadian players. 

 

I get the concern. I don't like losing drafted players because they get to be free agents before playing a single game. 

 

But those rules exist for a reason, and they are used all of the time for players in all leagues. It's not about the Fox/Gaudreau players. It's for the smaller profile players when their drafting team chooses not to sign them. It's a mechanism for them to be able to sign somewhere else. 

 

We don't see it in high profile players in the CHL because they sign a contract right away. Makes sense for the player and team that are both looking for security. But you can't sign an NCAA player until they leave school, and if they stay the entire 4 years they are a free agent. The CHL player could have also not signed a contract for 4 years and got the same opportunity. 

 

I can't see the NHL PA signing off on special rules for college players, nor do I think they should sign off on them. I wish there was a mechanism to make a player team commitment that didn't violate NCAA rules though. 

I just think it should be like an RFA offer sheet, for college only. They’re free to sign elsewhere but that team needs to give up a pick according to the entry level contract signed. Like Fox could’ve been a 2nd or 3rd rounder. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

While it's not quite Mang levels there is lots to look at in terms of expecting a bump in Dube's game. How he gets utilized will be key.

 

I don't really see it turning into a bad deal though. Good investment. 

 

 

 

"is a fourth line winger"... not really accurate but given he's produced at or better than Mangiapane by the same age, I would expect him to only get better from here.  Depending on how the team shapes up this season, Dube could get some ice time on the RW with either Gaudreau-Monahan or Tkachuk-Lindholm.  I'm sure they will mix things up to find the best combo.

[kehatch]

I am on the minority, but I don't care for the a

Dube deal. It's not terrible, and if he progresses it could be a value deal on year 2 and 3, but if he doesn't it's an overpay. 

 

I haven't loved his progression, so that likely hampers my enthusiasm. I would have preferred a smaller one year deal. 

[The_People1]

On 8/25/2021 at 5:21 PM, kehatch said:

 

The issue isn't the NHL rules. The issue is the NCAA rules that prevent a prospect from signing a contract. A player from any league can sit out long enough and sign where they want. 

 

Yups, so maybe like conundrumed said, add one more year of rights so a college player leaving his 4th year will be faced with sitting out a full year to go UFA.  That forces them to sign with the team that drafted them.

[The_People1]

1 minute ago, kehatch said:

I am on the minority, but I don't care for the a

Dube deal. It's not terrible, and if he progresses it could be a value deal on year 2 and 3, but if he doesn't it's an overpay. 

 

I haven't loved his progression, so that likely hampers my enthusiasm. I would have preferred a smaller one year deal. 

 

Would you do a Dube for Scott Mayfield trade?  Mayfield would give us something we haven't had since Derek Engellend... that tough 3rd pair stay at home RD.  Fights, hits, and does all that good stuff.  We will need it for Sutter hockey.

[sak22]

29 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups, so maybe like conundrumed said, add one more year of rights so a college player leaving his 4th year will be faced with sitting out a full year to go UFA.  That forces them to sign with the team that drafted them.

I think we just need to get over Fox.  If we propose a system that a drafted player must sign with that team, if players can't walk away from the team that drafted them, then teams shouldn't be allowed to walk away from players they drafted that they don't want to sign.  Mitch Mattson is a draft pick I imagine the Flames have no interest in signing at this point, but if the Flames choose to pass does that mean no team can sign him for a year?  Do they need toput in a rule that junior players who choose not to sign (rare but still exist ex. Gawdin) have to wait until a year after they age out of junior as well?  Or are we changing the whole thing because of one player.  

 

A side note if Fox did sign, how much would it cost to keep him after next season?  Highly unlikely in a world where Nurse makes 9.25 that Fox in the same province would take single digits.  

[The_People1]

23 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I think we just need to get over Fox.  If we propose a system that a drafted player must sign with that team, if players can't walk away from the team that drafted them, then teams shouldn't be allowed to walk away from players they drafted that they don't want to sign.  Mitch Mattson is a draft pick I imagine the Flames have no interest in signing at this point, but if the Flames choose to pass does that mean no team can sign him for a year?  Do they need toput in a rule that junior players who choose not to sign (rare but still exist ex. Gawdin) have to wait until a year after they age out of junior as well?  Or are we changing the whole thing because of one player.  

 

A side note if Fox did sign, how much would it cost to keep him after next season?  Highly unlikely in a world where Nurse makes 9.25 that Fox in the same province would take single digits.  

 

Right so, instead of adding one more year of rights, then perhaps all drafted players who do not sign have to re-enter the draft.  If they do not get drafted, then they get UFA eligibility.

 

In regards to that side note, like seriously?  No team will want to trade for a 24-year-old Norris RD and we are stuck to pay $10-mil+?  Should the Flames just fold up shop now and leave the league because same philosophy will apply to any future NHL star, right?

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Would you do a Dube for Scott Mayfield trade?  Mayfield would give us something we haven't had since Derek Engellend... that tough 3rd pair stay at home RD.  Fights, hits, and does all that good stuff.  We will need it for Sutter hockey.

 

I don't see Dube getting traded. This is an overpay based on current performance, and is a contract based on potential. I think that makes Dube worth more to the Flames then other teams. Besides trading a guy after inking him to a 3 year deal doesn't happen often. 

[cross16]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

"is a fourth line winger"... not really accurate but given he's produced at or better than Mangiapane by the same age, I would expect him to only get better from here.  Depending on how the team shapes up this season, Dube could get some ice time on the RW with either Gaudreau-Monahan or Tkachuk-Lindholm.  I'm sure they will mix things up to find the best combo.

 

That is based on his ice time