2021 Offseason Thread

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well the biggest difference betwee us and TBL is Vasilevskiy, Kucherov and Hedman.

Point is a star in the payoffs and will be soon their best player perhaps.

It's hard to really compare otherwise because we haven't gone into later rounds in like forever.

Can't really tell how impactful a player could be in one round.

 

That's the part that is frustrating.

We miss the playoffs in a year where we could have beat Toronto.

Can't say what WPG would be like, but we could bet them.

VGK, perhaps not.

 

We have not had a top D since JBow.

Sorry Gio, but your playoff work doesn't stack up to the greats.

Maybe I am missing the boat, but I don't think we will do anything until we replace the top D.

Perhaps Markstrom is not enough too make a difference, but he's been good for year behind a lesser D.

 

So, my wish list is:

A great 1b goalie in case Markstrom gets injured.

A top 2D; at this point I'm not sure who the partner would be now or in the future.

A big bruising D.

A top 6 RW.

A top 6 C.

4th line.

 

 

i don’t know. Do we have the scoring depth Tampa has? I guess if we had those players then Gaudreau and Tkachuk would be the scoring depth. 
 

Mangiapane is good, but I don’t know if he’s a game breaker. But what you want to compliment the main guys. I guess if the main guys aren’t scoring he can only do so much. 
 

Weird year. No 2nd line, no 3rd line and a 4th line of ins and outs. 
 

but anyway, I just the holes are too many.

 

and that might be where BT tries to fix as well. Trade away our 1st for a Hamilton/Hamonic kind of deal. But maybe for a left D and after the exp draft.

[travel_dude]

25 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I think you’re right, but it means we keep picking at 12 or 16. And that window might be closing quick if we can’t get anything for Gaudreau and he walks. Tkachuk might just take the qualifying offer and then walk too. Monahan has a few years left. 

 

Gaudreau walking is not happening.

May get traded, but not walking.

Tkachuk has more of a future here than most of the other players.

If there are cracks in the roster, perhaps they are old cracks.

Monahan may be broken.

Or he has another 6-8 years of being a 20+ goals scorer.

 

All I am getting at is that it takes time to build a winner and we need to add impact players.

Our window is not closing, but we have to be smart and not trade away when we are more than a piece short.

 

[jjgallow]

11 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well the biggest difference betwee us and TBL is Vasilevskiy, Kucherov and Hedman.

Point is a star in the payoffs and will be soon their best player perhaps.

It's hard to really compare otherwise because we haven't gone into later rounds in like forever.

Can't really tell how impactful a player could be in one round.

 

That's the part that is frustrating.

We miss the playoffs in a year where we could have beat Toronto.

Can't say what WPG would be like, but we could bet them.

VGK, perhaps not.

 

We have not had a top D since JBow.

Sorry Gio, but your playoff work doesn't stack up to the greats.

Maybe I am missing the boat, but I don't think we will do anything until we replace the top D.

Perhaps Markstrom is not enough too make a difference, but he's been good for year behind a lesser D.

 

So, my wish list is:

A great 1b goalie in case Markstrom gets injured.

A top 2D; at this point I'm not sure who the partner would be now or in the future.

A big bruising D.

A top 6 RW.

A top 6 C.

4th line.

 

 

 

You correctly identified that we lack first line players.

 

then you had a wishlist spare parts?

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

i don’t know. Do we have the scoring depth Tampa has? I guess if we had those players then Gaudreau and Tkachuk would be the scoring depth. 
 

Mangiapane is good, but I don’t know if he’s a game breaker. But what you want to compliment the main guys. I guess if the main guys aren’t scoring he can only do so much. 
 

Weird year. No 2nd line, no 3rd line and a 4th line of ins and outs. 
 

but anyway, I just the holes are too many.

 

and that might be where BT tries to fix as well. Trade away our 1st for a Hamilton/Hamonic kind of deal. But maybe for a left D and after the exp draft.

 

Weird year is right.

It doesn't reall tell you much other than we played Canadian teams and lost more than we won.

 

If you count scoring by 82 game pace, Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Tkachuk and Lindholm all we at 26 goal pace or higher.

Not Matthews level, but a good start.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

All I am getting at is that it takes time to build a winner and we need to add impact players.

Our window is not closing, but we have to be smart and not trade away when we are more than a piece short.

 

Our window closed when Giordano turned 37 years old.  He carried the Flames for a good 4 to 5 years.  It was a good run.  Time to "hard retool" because there's no elite players on this team now. 

 

Gaudreau is the closest to a game changer that we have but the league has figured him out.  

Tkachuk elite intangibles but does not have elite offensive needed to carry a team all by himself.

Monahan... damaged goods.

Lindholm, Mangiapane, Backlund, and Dube... solid depth guys.

 

I'm not even saying we need a McDavid phenom-level player.  But at least a point-per-game forward or Norris-level Dman that we can put on the ice 22-to-25-minutes a game. 

[travel_dude]

12 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Our window closed when Giordano turned 37 years old.  He carried the Flames for a good 4 to 5 years.  It was a good run.  Time to "hard retool" because there's no elite players on this team now. 

 

Gaudreau is the closest to a game changer that we have but the league has figured him out.  

Tkachuk elite intangibles but does not have elite offensive needed to carry a team all by himself.

Monahan... damaged goods.

Lindholm, Mangiapane, Backlund, and Dube... solid depth guys.

 

I'm not even saying we need a McDavid phenom-level player.  But at least a point-per-game forward or Norris-level Dman that we can put on the ice 22-to-25-minutes a game. 

 Agree to disagree.

Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Lindholm and Mangiapane score at a rate to most team's top 6.

Missing was the Matthews/Ovi/McDavid goal scoring levels.

Monahan was recalled to the factory, may not be a lemon.

They are all in the middle or start of their peaks.

 

Gio performed admirably during his tenure, propped up at times by Brodie.

He hasn't been a difference maker defensively for some time now.

 

I would argue that you need to be closer to Vegas and Colorado to be in your window than EDM.

Elite alone does not win games.

Having 3-4 lines that can score does.

Having a top D pair and a top echelon goalie does.

[jjgallow]

[robrob74]

37 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

LOL,

 

It's more like, 

Lanny: "why isn't BT listening to the scouts?"

BT: I am a genius! I just GM'd the crap out of it!

Button: FUDGE! I just dropped how many and got the 3rd or 4th guy on MY list. Why am I even here?

[jjgallow]

54 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

LOL,

 

It's more like, 

Lanny: "why isn't BT listening to the scouts?"

BT: I am a genius! I just GM'd the crap out of it!

Button: FUDGE! I just dropped how many and got the 3rd or 4th guy on MY list. Why am I even here?

 

Brayden Schneider is looking Soooooo good right now.   Still early of course, but...

[robrob74]

16 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Brayden Schneider is looking Soooooo good right now.   Still early of course, but...

 

Do you mean it, or sarcasm? I wanted to continue filling out the D last draft. There were a few on the board at the time. Hope Zary becomes a player though

 

I think he Schneider was one I wanted at the time. Even if he was only projected as a top 4, you still need good top4 D last I checked. 

[sak22]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

LOL,

 

It's more like, 

Lanny: "why isn't BT listening to the scouts?"

BT: I am a genius! I just GM'd the crap out of it!

Button: FUDGE! I just dropped how many and got the 3rd or 4th guy on MY list. Why am I even here?

I would think the director of scouting would prefer having additional picks, in many cases I believe its them who push to move up or down. 

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

I would think the director of scouting would prefer having additional picks, in many cases I believe its them who push to move up or down. 

 

 

Maybe? I guess so. But if you're high on someone in those spots they traded down from, I would be torn. My bet is that some would be happy for more picks while those who were interested in some that were in those spots weren't so keen on trading down. Depends on their perceived upsides of the players. 

 

The other picks don't look that amazing. Mind you, I haven't seen them, just that knowing they left players on the board and went off. But then who's ranking are those?

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Do you mean it, or sarcasm? I wanted to continue filling out the D last draft. There were a few on the board at the time. Hope Zary becomes a player though

 

I think he Schneider was one I wanted at the time. Even if he was only projected as a top 4, you still need good top4 D last I checked. 

 

Oh I mean it.  100% he looks really good.

[Thebrewcrew]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

Maybe? I guess so. But if you're high on someone in those spots they traded down from, I would be torn. My bet is that some would be happy for more picks while those who were interested in some that were in those spots weren't so keen on trading down. Depends on their perceived upsides of the players. 

 

The other picks don't look that amazing. Mind you, I haven't seen them, just that knowing they left players on the board and went off. But then who's ranking are those?

The 1st trade down, resulted in the pick of Jeremie Poirier. The Flames could have taken Poirier in the 1st round, that was where he was "ranked". They got him in the 3rd and it has a real chance to be a steal.

 

The other trade down led to the selection of Jake Boltmann. That was a bit of a surprise, clearly the area scouts believe in him. That pick is fair to be critical of, but lets see how it plays out, Boltmann still has a full college career to play, at a good program in Notre Dame

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

4 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Maybe? I guess so. But if you're high on someone in those spots they traded down from, I would be torn. My bet is that some would be happy for more picks while those who were interested in some that were in those spots weren't so keen on trading down. Depends on their perceived upsides of the players. 

 

The other picks don't look that amazing. Mind you, I haven't seen them, just that knowing they left players on the board and went off. But then who's ranking are those?

After the first round it's more luck than anything so "amazing" is pretty much an unknown. From that point I figure the more the merrier, especially your 2nd and 3rds.  

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

The 1st trade down, resulted in the pick of Jeremie Poirier. The Flames could have taken Poirier in the 1st round, that was where he was "ranked". They got him in the 3rd and it has a real chance to be a steal.

 

The other trade down led to the selection of Jake Boltmann. That was a bit of a surprise, clearly the area scouts believe in him. That pick is fair to be critical of, but lets see how it plays out, Boltmann still has a full college career to play, at a good program in Notre Dame

 

Ya, but there was a reason Poirier was selected in the 3rd round. His D really stinks. Hope he can fix it a bit at least. He's very talented offensively, so is he worth it to be a PP specialist? I mean, we've seen Gustafson and guys like that get tossed around in the NHL. Worth a shot. I'd like to see him as a forward, mostly because if he has the offensive instincts, the D instincts that he carries from the backend might translate better as a forward. THere's just a bit less responsibility or I guess I could say the responsibility differs. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

After the first round it's more luck than anything so "amazing" is pretty much an unknown. From that point I figure the more the merrier, especially your 2nd and 3rds.  

 

 I get it. It's good to have more. But if you're sacrificing a pick that might be a higher end player than Zary, and Zary tops out as a 3 or 4C and the others we passed on end up higher, is it really worth it? Zary did well this past year. But international tournaments don't always translate to success in the pros. 

[travel_dude]

21 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

LOL,

 

It's more like, 

Lanny: "why isn't BT listening to the scouts?"

BT: I am a genius! I just GM'd the crap out of it!

Button: FUDGE! I just dropped how many and got the 3rd or 4th guy on MY list. Why am I even here?

 

Really?  The director of scouting has the final list.  Every name left on it is ranked 1-whatever.

As they get picked, they get scratched off.

If Schneider was on the top of the list, they would have picked him.

I suspect they had Zary and Lapierre at the top and felt one of them would survive the first drop in pick.

Seeing who was next selected allowed them to take the risk on the second drop.

 

What you are describing is the way Faster did it.  The scouts did their part and him and JB selected oddities and high risks.

They chose to ignore some players early on so they could possibly get them later (which they didn't).

They barely got Gaudreau before he would have gone to BOS.

[Thebrewcrew]

I'm really interested to see what Blake Coleman and Barclay Goodrow sign for. 

 

Obviously, both have 2 cup rings and neither has made much money, by NHL standards, of course. Coleman has earnings of 6.5mill and Goodrow is around 4mill in career earnings. I think they'll take the biggest payday.

 

Good players, good at their role, but I'd stay away if I'm BT. Recency bias will give these players too much money and too much term.

 

Look at what Brandon Tanev got two years ago, 3.5x6. Tanev was 27, a career 0.26pt/g at the time of signing. Goodrow is 28, with a career 0.28pt/g and Coleman is 29, averaging 0.42pts/g

 

I don't know that they'll get 6yrs in this NHL economy, but I gotta think 3.5 gets your hat into the ring and at least 4 or 5 years of term. 

 

Again, I like these players and appreciate what they do, but this is one the Flames should avoid. 

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I'm really interested to see what Blake Coleman and Barclay Goodrow sign for. 

 

Obviously, both have 2 cup rings and neither has made much money, by NHL standards, of course. Coleman has earnings of 6.5mill and Goodrow is around 4mill in career earnings. I think they'll take the biggest payday.

 

Good players, good at their role, but I'd stay away if I'm BT. Recency bias will give these players too much money and too much term.

 

Look at what Brandon Tanev got two years ago, 3.5x6. Tanev was 27, a career 0.26pt/g at the time of signing. Goodrow is 28, with a career 0.28pt/g and Coleman is 29, averaging 0.42pts/g

 

I don't know that they'll get 6yrs in this NHL economy, but I gotta think 3.5 gets your hat into the ring and at least 4 or 5 years of term. 

 

Again, I like these players and appreciate what they do, but this is one the Flames should avoid. 

 

JR screwed up PITTS.

Tanev was never wirth that.

I would have no issue with Coleman, other than he is another LW.

I would love to have him over Lucic, as long as it came with cap savings of $2m+.

[jjgallow]

On 7/9/2021 at 4:13 PM, sak22 said:

I would think the director of scouting would prefer having additional picks, in many cases I believe its them who push to move up or down. 

 

 

[Thebrewcrew]

 

 

Just looking around the league, there aren't many teams that could do a Gio deal, prior to expanion.

Here are the teams I kinda view as having the ability to protect Gio.

ARI- they'll protect OEL and Chychrun. They have lots of D that are UFA's. 

DET- Hronek is the only slamdunk. 

NJ- Severson is the only one, maybe Butcher.

NYR- Trouba and Lindgren

OTT- Chabot

 

The Flames are dealing from a position of weakness, so I don't think they'd get much for Gio. A 2nd would be great, like Ring of Fire suggests.

OTT has two 2nd's in 21 and 22 also plenty of cap space. They will want to take a step next year, I could see them inquiring.

ARI I doubt will have interest. Being without a first in 20 and 21, I would imagine they wanna keep as many picks as they can

NYR could make sense. Young team and a young blueline as well. They have cap space too

NJ probably not a fit, although Gio would be their 2nd best D, behind Ty Smith

DET they have three 2nds. Maybe they take Gio with the hope of turning him into even more at the TDL

 

Keeping in mind there are 11 teams Gio can veto a trade to. 

 

[sak22]

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

49 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

 

Just looking around the league, there aren't many teams that could do a Gio deal, prior to expanion.

Here are the teams I kinda view as having the ability to protect Gio.

ARI- they'll protect OEL and Chychrun. They have lots of D that are UFA's. 

DET- Hronek is the only slamdunk. 

NJ- Severson is the only one, maybe Butcher.

NYR- Trouba and Lindgren

OTT- Chabot

 

The Flames are dealing from a position of weakness, so I don't think they'd get much for Gio. A 2nd would be great, like Ring of Fire suggests.

OTT has two 2nd's in 21 and 22 also plenty of cap space. They will want to take a step next year, I could see them inquiring.

ARI I doubt will have interest. Being without a first in 20 and 21, I would imagine they wanna keep as many picks as they can

NYR could make sense. Young team and a young blueline as well. They have cap space too

NJ probably not a fit, although Gio would be their 2nd best D, behind Ty Smith

DET they have three 2nds. Maybe they take Gio with the hope of turning him into even more at the TDL

 

Keeping in mind there are 11 teams Gio can veto a trade to. 

 

At the risk of sounding cold hearted I have no hard feelings to losing Gio for nothing.  If thats part of what it takes to get the team pointed in the right direction then so be it. Business is business and I'm sure Gio isnt blind to that.

[Thebrewcrew]

25 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

At the risk of sounding cold hearted I have no hard feelings to losing Gio for nothing.  If thats part of what it takes to get the team pointed in the right direction then so be it. Business is business and I'm sure Gio isnt blind to that.

 

That's probably the most likely outcome. The price will keep Gio from Seattle will be high, the Flames shouldn't pay it. It's the easiest "shakeup" they can make.

 

I just think the organization would love to either keep him or trade him so they don't lose him for nothing. 

 

The biggest thing is the timeline. Expansion lists have to be in sometime on Friday for league approval, by Saturday the Kraken receive the list. Unless the Flames have something brewing, there isn't much time to trade Gio and of course there aren't many realistic partners. 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

That's probably the most likely outcome. The price will keep Gio from Seattle will be high, the Flames shouldn't pay it. It's the easiest "shakeup" they can make.

 

I just think the organization would love to either keep him or trade him so they don't lose him for nothing. 

 

The biggest thing is the timeline. Expansion lists have to be in sometime on Friday for league approval, by Saturday the Kraken receive the list. Unless the Flames have something brewing, there isn't much time to trade Gio and of course there aren't many realistic partners. 

plus, how many other teams are looking for looking to do the same with other D or players?