Darryl Sutter new head coach

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, redfire11 said:

Compare the flames to the Kracken.

Player by player including the goalies. 

There is not to many if no annalists that would say man for man the Kracken is a better team. 

The difference between the two teams is obvious. 

COACHING

 

Coaching or system.

One is working, one is not.

Maybe their goalies' bad games have better scoring than our goalies' good games.

 

But keep your head up.

We are soon going to get passed by Buffalo, Washington and Ottawa.

They can only lose so much, while we can only win so much.

At this rate, I doubt we hit 90.

[conundrumed]

TIL Coleman has a NTC until the 24-25 season when it becomes modified.

But it's time to gather up the lists of the other modified NTCs.

[jjgallow]

9 hours ago, robrob74 said:

what I meant was keep Markstrom as a starter and insulate Wolf or younger goalies against a tough time in retooling. I'm two years he can start

 

Yeah, I get the methodology and I support it.   Although it could be very temporary should Wolf claim the spot.

 

All I'm saying is that we maybe don't have that starter in our system right now.  And if we do, it might be Vladar.

 

But at this point it really, doesn't matter as much which one they go with and it may be contracts that decide it unfortunately.

[jjgallow]

8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Coaching or system.

One is working, one is not.

Maybe their goalies' bad games have better scoring than our goalies' good games.

 

But keep your head up.

We are soon going to get passed by Buffalo, Washington and Ottawa.

They can only lose so much, while we can only win so much.

At this rate, I doubt we hit 90.

 

Think so?  I'm undecided but I would not be shocked.

 

If you're right I gonna bump that 4 horse race thread lol

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

TIL Coleman has a NTC until the 24-25 season when it becomes modified.

But it's time to gather up the lists of the other modified NTCs.

 

I almost don't need to look.

 

NMC

Kadri - M-NTC in 26/27

Markstrom - full until UFA in 2026

 

M-NTC

Hiberdeau - until the end of the year, then NMC for all but last 2 years

Backlund - 10 teams he is willing to go to

Hanifin - well we waiting, now 8 team no trade list

Tanev - 10 team no trade list

 

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Think so?  I'm undecided but I would not be shocked.

 

If you're right I gonna bump that 4 horse race thread lol

 

When I look at WAS, I think they are still motivated to win.  Can only lose so many.

BUFF catches teams off guard and can score.

OTT is all in, they are trying to sell the team.  You give it your all for a team in that situation.

 

But, the lotto rules don't favor us.

If CGY announced they were moving ahead on an arena, we would be all set.

We would get the lotto win.  Need to be in the right spot for that.

[jjgallow]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

When I look at WAS, I think they are still motivated to win.  Can only lose so many.

BUFF catches teams off guard and can score.

OTT is all in, they are trying to sell the team.  You give it your all for a team in that situation.

 

But, the lotto rules don't favor us.

If CGY announced they were moving ahead on an arena, we would be all set.

We would get the lotto win.  Need to be in the right spot for that.

 

We should totally do that lol.  I mean why not?  we already announced it once.  We should announce it each year a couple weeks before draft day

[travel_dude]

Just now, jjgallow said:

 

We should totally do that lol.  I mean why not?  we already announced it once.  We should announce it each year a couple weeks before draft day

 

No point until we are actually in a lotto spot, right?

[travel_dude]

The year of Tkachuk, we win one too many to get 3rd overall and one too few to get Laine.

Before that we lose the lotto and get 4th and pick the wrong player for us.

Before that we lose the lotto and get 6th, while almost losing that pick because of a dumb GM.

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yeah, I get the methodology and I support it.   Although it could be very temporary should Wolf claim the spot.

 

All I'm saying is that we maybe don't have that starter in our system right now.  And if we do, it might be Vladar.

 

But at this point it really, doesn't matter as much which one they go with and it may be contracts that decide it unfortunately.

 

Really hard to tell when we play the current starter well past the obvious point in the season.

This should have been the year to see what the backup was all about.

We chose to treat him like a backup and use his less than stellar starts as an excuse to go back to the crap.

At one point, the records and stats were stark differences.

Now, that has regressed.

 

Both goalies seem to be suffering from subtle changes to the play in front of them.

Markstrom letting in 5-hole and far post goals.

Vladar getting beat on high shots.

Markstron not holding the goal line on greasy goals.

Vladar getting beat on rising shots on the rush.

Don't know if you can just explain them as not being good enough.

Losing games where you face less than 23 shots.

Every odd man rush is a goal.

[tmac70]

13 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I almost don't need to look.

 

NMC

Kadri - M-NTC in 26/27

Markstrom - full until UFA in 2026

 

M-NTC

Hiberdeau - until the end of the year, then NMC for all but last 2 years

Backlund - 10 teams he is willing to go to

Hanifin - well we waiting, now 8 team no trade list

Tanev - 10 team no trade list

 

From what we can speculatively read in the media these 2 are not happy. So if they have M-NTC do you think they wouldn't remove them to get out. On the other end if a club wants the players how big of a discount are you giving them to take them? Let's be frank here Hubie is a huge disappointment (is he is hurt then water that down), Markstrom, and Vldar has been hot garbage, Mags is a poor extension, Weegar was long to get entrenched, Big Z was good early but has now back to his old ways, Sutter stubborn with roster spots and rookies. Huberdeau is not happy you can see it through body language effort. 

 

We all know Sutter is set in his ways, has systems that work, and has a good grasp on the way to win. His biggest fault is that he is a poor communicator is not a great people person and is not a raw raw guy. In today's world, his tactics are not effective with most players. Was he hired to make this club win and put a system in place and correct the culture or was he brought into development and babysit?  We have no clue whats gone on behind close doors but we I can say that Sutter has changed his media tone when being asked questions. He can change and readapt if he believes that doing so will create the end result.  

[zima]

10 hours ago, redfire11 said:

Compare the flames to the Kracken.

Player by player including the goalies. 

There is not to many if no annalists that would say man for man the Kracken is a better team. 

The difference between the two teams is obvious. 

COACHING

Sorry disagree the problem this yr is goaltending when you out shoot teams by 20 shots and still lose it can only be tending in my little mind. I remember when sutter was sighned this form seemed pretty pumped as I was. When you lose 2 top players your top point geters and still out shoot teams by 20 shots that to me is coaching aagain in my little mind..

[cross16]

I’m with conundrumed on this. A full scale rebuild back to an actual contender would take closer to 7 than 5. I think it would take 2 years(maybe 3) to unwind this team because in order to do so your either eating money(long term cap pain) or your attaching assets to deals (makes it tougher). Just not a lot of attractive long term assets here right now. 
Then your looking at a 2-3 period to collecting enough assets to get there and that assumes you get some luck on your side in the lottery. Then 2-3 years for those assets to get the to level you want. 
 

5 years is too optimistic imo. Unless they luck themselves into a franchise player. There not likely getting Bedard and I don’t think there is a player like thatavailable in the next few drafts. 
 

im not saying a rebuild should be off the table but it be a very painful one if they did it. 

[redfire11]

27 minutes ago, zima said:

Sorry disagree the problem this yr is goaltending when you out shoot teams by 20 shots and still lose it can only be tending in my little mind. I remember when sutter was sighned this form seemed pretty pumped as I was. When you lose 2 top players your top point geters and still out shoot teams by 20 shots that to me is coaching aagain in my little mind..

Martin Jones .887 sv%

Jacob Markstrom .889 sv%

Phillip Grubauer .892 sv%

Dan Vladar .896 sv%

[DirtyDeeds]

19 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Agreed.  If i had it my way, then all three are gone.  The GM, the coach, and the players.  Total rebuild.

We can look at this season from so many perspectives or all of them.

 

GM - did not keep his core and vision together. This years club he scrambled together a "save his butt team" that isn't very good and is a borderline playoff team if that. In his defense we were told it was a borderline playoff team. We got exactly that.

 

Coach - Did not get the buy-in to his system. I didn't see the System change much to adapt. We did get a lot of line shuffling between and during games. Sutter told us at the beginning of the season this team would have trouble scoring goals. We had trouble doing exactly that.

 

Players - This group allowed almost as many goals scored against as for. Those results show the defence broke down too often and the goaltending didn't help often enough. Do the players pick up on things like a GM and Coach not getting along? Is that why they were so erratic this season?

 

Coaches rarely gets an extension before the GM. What does that tell you? It means Sutter is committed despite the shuffle of players he has been given. Not sure you can take much else from that. BT waited for his last term to expire before resigning.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, tmac70 said:

From what we can speculatively read in the media these 2 are not happy. So if they have M-NTC do you think they wouldn't remove them to get out. On the other end if a club wants the players how big of a discount are you giving them to take them? Let's be frank here Hubie is a huge disappointment (is he is hurt then water that down), Markstrom, and Vldar has been hot garbage, Mags is a poor extension, Weegar was long to get entrenched, Big Z was good early but has now back to his old ways, Sutter stubborn with roster spots and rookies. Huberdeau is not happy you can see it through body language effort. 

 

We all know Sutter is set in his ways, has systems that work, and has a good grasp on the way to win. His biggest fault is that he is a poor communicator is not a great people person and is not a raw raw guy. In today's world, his tactics are not effective with most players. Was he hired to make this club win and put a system in place and correct the culture or was he brought into development and babysit?  We have no clue whats gone on behind close doors but we I can say that Sutter has changed his media tone when being asked questions. He can change and readapt if he believes that doing so will create the end result.  

 

Well, you are not likely to sell either player.  Impossible trade and I can't recall any like that where you have max term and high dollars.  I don't even buy that they want the coach gone, but I do think they have opinions about play that are being ignored.  Mange is a sell low value.  Weegar is fine, in fact one of the better ones here.  Zaddy is about what you expect for a 3rd pairing.  I like his skating, which he doesn't use enough.

 

Sorry, but Sutter HAD systems that work.  I'm not sure how much credit he deserved for last year, since the same goalies let in more this year.  If you need 10 shutouts a year to be on pace to get into the playoffs and get a high seed, then you will be disappointed almost every time. 

 

Is possession hockey a good thing?  Why not, if it keeps the puck out of your net.

High volume shooting?  Sure, if you want to give up possession and take shots from everywhere.

 

Firing one coach doesn't fix enough.

PP still sucks.

Defense maybe needs an overhaul, not just the players?

Goalies need help or replacement.

Too many guys that just move the puck around.

[zima]

Can someone please enlighten me as to how 40 shot or so per most games and still lose is put on the D does the other teams play or quality shots so much better than ours does the D allow more high danger shots than our team has in high danger shots are we just shooting a ton of shots towards the net that are just none threatening ? I was always told to put the puck on the net and good things happen and I think that's true especially if the goaltending is sub par and can't stop a basket ball . I think our goalis can't stop a slow pich baseball at the best of times this yr. I put this on the Goalies and perhaps some bad play by D but not all on the play on D and forwards . 

[Thebrewcrew]

Darryl isn't going to be fired. The only way he's not the coach is if he decides to step away. It was reported when he went to LA there was an agreement between him and Lombardi that he wouldn't be fired. When the time came he would step away. I would imagine there's a similar agreement in place, given the relationship between the coach and ownership. However, maybe that time is now...

 

Anyway, the next coach of the Flames has to be Mitch Love. He's got an excellent track record. He wins wherever he goes. The Wranglers and Heat have been fantastic under him. He deserves NHL opportunity. The Flames can't let it be elsewhere though.

[robrob74]

10 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Is possession hockey a good thing?  Why not, if it keeps the puck out of your net.

High volume shooting?  Sure, if you want to give up possession and take shots from everywhere.

 

Firing one coach doesn't fix enough.

PP still sucks.

Defense maybe needs an overhaul, not just the players?

Goalies need help or replacement.

Too many guys that just move the puck around.

this is how I felt about the team for years. There's also been something about the chances we have given up too, regardless of which goalies we've had other teams capitalize on the chances we given up over the years, like they're just waiting for that chance to happen and react when it does, biding time...

[The_People1]

Sutter deploys a championship system and that's one of low event, defensive, boring hockey, etc.  It generally works but he needs his goalie to be top 5 because he wants to win 2-1 games all day long.  Otherwise, the team is chasing all game and has to open up.

 

He also needs superstar players who can beat 1-on-1 coverage because he's not one to activate the D.  And so there's a lot of cycling and point shots.  He needs size and skilled forwards to screen and get rebounds because it's all low percentage stuff at high volume.

 

In a perfect world, he wants 9 young Trevor Lewises, 5 Chris Tanevs and Vezina-level goaltending.  Meanwhile, this is a team that's a factory for the little guys like Mangiapane, Dube, Pelletier, Phillips, and coming is Coronato.

[jjgallow]

16 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Really hard to tell when we play the current starter well past the obvious point in the season.

This should have been the year to see what the backup was all about.

We chose to treat him like a backup and use his less than stellar starts as an excuse to go back to the crap.

At one point, the records and stats were stark differences.

Now, that has regressed.

 

Both goalies seem to be suffering from subtle changes to the play in front of them.

Markstrom letting in 5-hole and far post goals.

Vladar getting beat on high shots.

Markstron not holding the goal line on greasy goals.

Vladar getting beat on rising shots on the rush.

Don't know if you can just explain them as not being good enough.

Losing games where you face less than 23 shots.

Every odd man rush is a goal.

 

For me I am not overly surprised with this, not having been a fan of either acquisition.

 

I only mention Vladar as he is at an age where he could improve next year, or at least not regress.

Markstrom is at an age where we should not be surprised if he takes another step back next year.  I'm not saying this will happen for sure but it could and it would put him on the brink of being an NHL goalie.

 

I've said before that I would be okay with 2 Dustin Wolfs.   Actually I'd be okay with 3.   Imho we need to get some younger guys in there and see who emerges.    Teams need to form chemistry with goalies as well, and it can take years.   May as well start investing in that.

[conundrumed]

17 hours ago, zima said:

Can someone please enlighten me as to how 40 shot or so per most games and still lose is put on the D does the other teams play or quality shots so much better than ours does the D allow more high danger shots than our team has in high danger shots are we just shooting a ton of shots towards the net that are just none threatening ? I was always told to put the puck on the net and good things happen and I think that's true especially if the goaltending is sub par and can't stop a basket ball . I think our goalis can't stop a slow pich baseball at the best of times this yr. I put this on the Goalies and perhaps some bad play by D but not all on the play on D and forwards . 

Stats and data don't really mean much in regard to the little universes of each individual game. We funnel a lot of pucks at the net without screens or much traffic. This means when we blame our goalies for letting in 30' flutters, they likely didn't see it due to screens. We don't score many of those because we just aren't good at screening their goalie. The old adage, "if they

see it they'll stop it" is true. We also play risk at the offensive blue line too often as well. So we give up a lot of odd man rushes moving north when the other team gets a turnover. They push it south on us in a hurry. That's pretty much the book on us. That's what the Oilers did in the playoffs, as much as all blame Markstrom.

And for a defence-first team, the majority of our dmen aren't great defensively.

So every team will let you shoot anything the goalie can see because it's harmless. We just don't plant guys to be screeners, I have no idea why. But watch us in the o-zone, and count how many times you see a Flame standing at the top of the crease in front of the goalie. We always funnel back to the D, but no one tries to screen the goalie, or they suck at it.

[jjgallow]

On 3/25/2023 at 10:07 AM, cross16 said:

I’m with conundrumed on this. A full scale rebuild back to an actual contender would take closer to 7 than 5. I think it would take 2 years(maybe 3) to unwind this team because in order to do so your either eating money(long term cap pain) or your attaching assets to deals (makes it tougher). Just not a lot of attractive long term assets here right now. 
Then your looking at a 2-3 period to collecting enough assets to get there and that assumes you get some luck on your side in the lottery. Then 2-3 years for those assets to get the to level you want. 
 

5 years is too optimistic imo. Unless they luck themselves into a franchise player. There not likely getting Bedard and I don’t think there is a player like thatavailable in the next few drafts. 
 

im not saying a rebuild should be off the table but it be a very painful one if they did it. 

 

I think this estimate is completely right, because of what we have in the pipeline now (prospects/picks), and what we have for contracts right now.   

 

Not that we can't accelerate the rebuild but it's a very, very painful process to do it.  Things like trading Toffoli, Andersson, Lindholm.   Things that would choke even me up and I'm usually pretty big on selling assets when they are high value.  You might cut it down to 5 years with some absolutely gut-wrenching ruthless moves and we all know that's not going to happen.

 

At the same time, I don't see a scenario where we don't go into a deep rebuild.   I do not see a retool out of this with how our contracts are structured.  There comes a point where teams either choose to:

1.  Make sustainable decisions
2.  Initiate a tolerable rebuild

3.   Let an intolerable rebuild happen to them

 

We're a pretty clear #3.   I don't really know what to say other than I hope we all learn from this experience and how we got here (we meaning owners in particular).    Would be nice if it was the last time in our lifetime.

[travel_dude]

15 hours ago, The_People1 said:

Sutter deploys a championship system and that's one of low event, defensive, boring hockey, etc.  It generally works but he needs his goalie to be top 5 because he wants to win 2-1 games all day long.  Otherwise, the team is chasing all game and has to open up.

 

He also needs superstar players who can beat 1-on-1 coverage because he's not one to activate the D.  And so there's a lot of cycling and point shots.  He needs size and skilled forwards to screen and get rebounds because it's all low percentage stuff at high volume.

 

In a perfect world, he wants 9 young Trevor Lewises, 5 Chris Tanevs and Vezina-level goaltending.  Meanwhile, this is a team that's a factory for the little guys like Mangiapane, Dube, Pelletier, Phillips, and coming is Coronato.

 

The disconnect comes from having a team that exceeded expectations based on the style of play.

Substitute a few pieces and we don't have the roster that fits, becuase it never really did.

The goalie was overplayed until he was the only option for the playoffs.

A 9-6 win should have set warning bells off.

The scoring was wide open, but the goalie sucked.

No change except to tighten up the offense.

No backup started because the backup was not in the plan.

 

This year we see more tight leash on play.

Didn't like the 5-1 start.

Tighten up and change things around.

 

I wonder what would have been the result of having Huberdeau with Lindholm all year.

Or Ruzicka in the lineup.

Or actuually using Valimaki.

 

Will never know.  Those things decided in camp.

[cross16]

On 3/26/2023 at 1:04 AM, The_People1 said:

Sutter deploys a championship system and that's one of low event, defensive, boring hockey, etc.  It generally works but he needs his goalie to be top 5 because he wants to win 2-1 games all day long.  Otherwise, the team is chasing all game and has to open up.

 

He also needs superstar players who can beat 1-on-1 coverage because he's not one to activate the D.  And so there's a lot of cycling and point shots.  He needs size and skilled forwards to screen and get rebounds because it's all low percentage stuff at high volume.

 

In a perfect world, he wants 9 young Trevor Lewises, 5 Chris Tanevs and Vezina-level goaltending.  Meanwhile, this is a team that's a factory for the little guys like Mangiapane, Dube, Pelletier, Phillips, and coming is Coronato.

 

I would not agree with this. Watch Colorado and Tampa bay the last few years and you want to try and convince me that's boring low event hockey? Heck look at the conference finals, not 1 of the teams plays that way. 

 

Defensive hockey no longer has to be boring if you are employing modern tactics.