Blockbuster: Hamilton Ferland Fox for Hanifin Lindholm

[cross16]

56 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

The one thing this trade does for us, is it makes us a faster team, Hamilton and Ferland are very good skaters, but Lindholm and Hanifin are bordering on elite skaters.

 

This is a very good point. 

 

On the financial side of this trade the flames do have a chance to gain some cost certainty here. As mentioned Ferland was a ufa next year who was probably going to be a tough sign. Flames could perhaps lock up both Lindholm and Hanifin for the next 4-5 years, or more, for what Hamilton and Ferland were going to cost next year. That's a silver lining so contracts may swing this back to the Flames, but if Lindholm gets 5 mill or something it would make it a little worse for flames imo. 

[conundrumed]

16 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

Funny you say that... I thought the same thing. I like hockey players that have more on their mind than hockey as well. Wanna know a secret? I really liked J-Bo, too. 

 

Love. 

How was breakfast?

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

For the record, I have no idea why everyone seems to want to break up Backs-Frolik.

If the OHL line could become a thing (would need to give Johnny a snipe), I think after awhile that would cut the league like hot butter.

Perfect storm. 3 Top 6 Picks that came up through the O, smells like devastation to me.

But need to add Skinner or Patches types for Johnny.

 

For one thing, it's about getting Bennett in a better situation.  

Frolik should be a jackknife, and we should be able to use him to mentor two young guys like Janko and Mangiapane.  Some speed and tenacity there.

Meanwhile, you have Tkachuk eating people alive in the corner and Backlund feeding the puck to the front of the net.  3 good possession players.

 

Ideally, we don;t have Brouwer stinking up the lineup.  We've moved on from a "soft" d-man and a gritty but inconsistent player and brought in speed and skill.  If we don;t make any further adds to the team, I hope they subtract both Brouwer and Stone.  

 

[conundrumed]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

For one thing, it's about getting Bennett in a better situation.  

Frolik should be a jackknife, and we should be able to use him to mentor two young guys like Janko and Mangiapane.  Some speed and tenacity there.

Meanwhile, you have Tkachuk eating people alive in the corner and Backlund feeding the puck to the front of the net.  3 good possession players.

 

Ideally, we don;t have Brouwer stinking up the lineup.  We've moved on from a "soft" d-man and a gritty but inconsistent player and brought in speed and skill.

If we don;t make any further adds to the team, I hope they subtract both Brouwer and Stone.  

 

Frolik isn't a jack knife. Many can complain about his offence but it is easy to say he's incredibly D responsible and an excellent forechecker/dangerous pker.

That melds to Backlund's game perfectly.

Why are we breaking up the pairing that is the glue for us?

Move Tkachuk, great. They've protected him, he can try moving up, over, whatevs.

Now, put Mangiapane there. They'll protect him and try to move him up, whatevs.

After 3ish years together, this talk of separating Backs and Frolik boggles my mind.

Want to be hard to play against? That's these 2.

[FlameFan4Life]

At first it sound like we over paid, but if Hamilton was a distraction and Fox wasn't going to sign then we won this trade by far. The argument could easily be made that Gio and Brodie had their best years together and never should have been split up. Hanifin with Hamonic might be good who can say. So the D only loses a few goals at this point which Gio and Brodie together can probably surpass. Hanifin makes us tougher so the D in my mind is better. I think Andersen is ready which means Stone could get traded to Ottawa. The return won't be to high because he is a little over payed so maybe Smith in return.

 

Lindholm is a great add. He is really fast and has not gotten a chance to play with to guys like Mony and Johnny, so his number will inflate a bit just like Ferlands did plus Lindholm has a high hockey IQ than Ferland with better hands.

 

I think we will see atleast one more change, either a bottom 6 Ufa signing or another hockey trade. We will get a goalie for sure but only time will tell. My hope is a prospect get the chance this year straight out of camp and sticks. M|y choice is Gawdin, Ruzika, maybe Foo.

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Frolik isn't a jack knife. Many can complain about his offence but it is easy to say he's incredibly D responsible and an excellent forechecker/dangerous pker.

That melds to Backlund's game perfectly.

Why are we breaking up the pairing that is the glue for us?

Move Tkachuk, great. They've protected him, he can try moving up, over, whatevs.

Now, put Mangiapane there. They'll protect him and try to move him up, whatevs.

After 3ish years together, this talk of separating Backs and Frolik boggles my mind.

Want to be hard to play against? That's these 2.

 

This is really just a counter to the OHL line suggestion of Bennett-Monahan-Tkachuk.

Frolik had a down year and it showed.  Backlund benefited from Tkachuk, and vice versa.

So you have a player like Bennett that has also showed chemistry with Backlund.

What do you do?

Replace Ferland directly with Lindholm and everything else stays the same?  Bennett with Janko and Brouwer?  Maybe Mangiapane on that line instead of Brouwer?

Okay, I'm listening.

 

What concerns me the most is we haven't added any scoring from last year.

Plug and play Lindholm and you haven;t added to the top line.  Maybe a bit more consistent, but not many more goals.

2nd line.  No change unless Frolik rebounds.  Add maybe 10 goals more.

3rd line without Mangiapane.  No improvement unless Bennett can figure it out and Janko has an awesome year.

3rd line with Mangiapane.  Possible uptick in scoring, but two rookies and one 21 year old vet.

 

There's probably 3 or 4 good options for lines.  Maybe staying the course makes the most sense, but lt's not like we dominated the NHL in the top 9.   

[Heartbreaker]

38 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

How was breakfast?

Love. 

[conundrumed]

If I really want to overthink it, which I love to do:

JG-Mony-Bennett

Patches-Lindholm-Tkachuk

Mangia-Backlund-Frolik

Klimchuk-Shore-Hathaway

 

Gio-Brodie

Hanifin-Hamonic

Valimaki-Andersson

Smith

Rittich

[conundrumed]

5 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

Love. 

So, pretty average?

[The_Tribal Chief]

I love that picture that is totally awsome Heartbreaker

 

On the Trade i on feel it isn't that terrible of a trade like everyone in the world says you have to give to get and yeah we had alot of supposedly top d men but how well did that Work getting into the playoffs Na Da so i dont mind doing this to change things more scoring Ferly just seemed to lose the edge he used to have when playing that we are all used to him playing with when ferly played with that edge he was a awsome player but he just seemed to be like a Sprinkler On and off alot More off then on most times

[robrob74]

55 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Frolik isn't a jack knife. Many can complain about his offence but it is easy to say he's incredibly D responsible and an excellent forechecker/dangerous pker.

That melds to Backlund's game perfectly.

Why are we breaking up the pairing that is the glue for us?

Move Tkachuk, great. They've protected him, he can try moving up, over, whatevs.

Now, put Mangiapane there. They'll protect him and try to move him up, whatevs.

After 3ish years together, this talk of separating Backs and Frolik boggles my mind.

Want to be hard to play against? That's these 2.

 

I feel like we could be pigeon-holing Backlund’s game and might be not using him to his full offensive potential. Maybe I am wrong, but if we don’t try better with him, we will always get what he is. That’s ok though.

[stubblejumper1]

Glass half full - This trade says to me that Fox had no interest in signing in Calgary, so throwing him in didn't really cost anything.  Lindholm can probably replace Ferland's offence.  Hanifin probably won't score as much as Hamilton, but he will probably be better defensively (which is good because the Flames gave up way too many prime scoring chances last year).  And, if Hamilton truly was a distraction "don't let the door hit you on the way out."

 

Glass half empty - Carolina got the best player in the trade (Hamilton), the Flames decided to improve their anaemic powerplay by trading away the quaterback for two average offensive contributors, the Flames lost one of their few forwards who isn't a feather weight (Ferland), and in a year where they didn't draft until the third round they gave up on a really good prospect (Fox).

 

Viewpoint of a realist - this is a lateral trade that neither helps nor hurts the Flames on the ice.  May help with the salary cap.

 

All in all, a pretty "meh" trade.

 

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I feel like we could be pigeon-holing Backlund’s game and might be not using him to his full offensive potential. Maybe I am wrong, but if we don’t try better with him, we will always get what he is. That’s ok though.

I think that's nonsense. Their shot %s were way down last year.

Don't change what works. That's why we just traded Hamilton.

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I feel like we could be pigeon-holing Backlund’s game and might be not using him to his full offensive potential. Maybe I am wrong, but if we don’t try better with him, we will always get what he is. That’s ok though.

Personally I would like to see this for our forward alignments if this is wat we end up work with.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm

Bennett, Backlund, Frolik

Tkachuk, Jankowski, Lazar

Klimchuk, Shore, Brouwer

I think BT still has some serious work to do yet.

[MAC331]

11 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I think that's nonsense. Their shot %s were way down last year.

Don't change what works. That's why we just traded Hamilton.

So don't change anything unless what ?

[conundrumed]

Just now, MAC331 said:

So don't change anything unless what ?

Don't change Bax-Frolik is my argument.

No what ifs.

Excellent, excellent pairing.

[cccsberg]

5 hours ago, MP5029 said:

 

Exactly, I checked the trade to see if there were draft picks like a few 2nds or something and when it had nothing I was like we just got poochhed...though potentially better in the long run....this is a huge gamble that has every chance of not working out this stings a bit more cause Hamilton cost us a first kinda of a lateral move or backwards move BT said he didn’t want to do no?  Wonder if there is more behind the scenes here with Hamilton 

Cost us a 15OA, 2 x 2nds, 3rd plus a fifth.  What we got back is a 5OA and a 4OA, both with 3 years NHL experience and improving.  We did good.

[MP5029]

10 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Personally I would like to see this for our forward alignments if this is wat we end up work with.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm

Bennett, Backlund, Frolik

Tkachuk, Jankowski, Lazar

Klimchuk, Shore, Brouwer

I think BT still has some serious work to do yet.

 

 

I kinda like this line idea but would change it to this 

 

Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm

Tachuk, Jankowski, Bennett

klemchuck/Magnpie,Backlund, Frolik

Klemchuck/Magnpie, Shore, Lazar

 

Reason for this is Bennett did very well on the RW on the top line for a short period, so I’m thinking 2nd line with some skill speed and thought to play would help...same goes for Jankowski, he’s been progressing very well but has way more to to offer, I think sheltering him at this point is holding him back in development.

 

i think this shuffle will provide a balanced scoring threat through 3 lines and a 5th line that you best not forget but maybteams will and it will cost them...

 

again, this is if we don’t get luck and end up adding a top line Power RW...but those are rare and hard to come by...so best bet workmwith what we have

 

on the D side, I’m good with stone over all mind you he is over paid as a 7th but that’s a good player to be the 7th D...I would rather Killington though as he’s every bit as good and cheaper lol

 

i would very happy if our D started and finished as:

 

Gio, TJ

Haf, Hammer

Valk, Anderson 

 

stone/killington

 

i think that if all players realized close to their potential this would be a crazy strong and balanced team if allinged something like this...

 

the majore issue is G, I’m not confident with what we have, and no I’m not speaking about our prospects, I think they are fine and can fill in a good number of games to reduce the load but our no1 is no spring chicken he was out for a long time and not quite the same after returning, that’s in injury a younger player would have bounced back better from, he cam bac too soon for his age for that injury in my opinion.

[robrob74]

45 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I think that's nonsense. Their shot %s were way down last year.

Don't change what works. That's why we just traded Hamilton.

 

We went to inorov but don’t want to sacrifice for it. 

 

Ok, should never have moved Ovechkin off of Backstrom’s line then. Should never have moved Bouma off of Backlund’s line either. It worked. 

 

Ovechkin is fine withiut Backstrom. Frolik could very well be declining. He’s young, but last year was a down year. Not saying he’s not going to rebound. But we can get Backlund better wingers and improve his play, you do it.

 

EDITED IN:

 

i dont get it. What is the reason we traded Hamilton? We just traded Hamilton because? He worked with Giordano. Up until he was traded most agreed here that he worked a lot better with Giordano than Brodie did, so don’t break it...

[cccsberg]

5 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

Giordano - Hamilton > Giordano - Brodie

 

Love. 

Giordano-Brodie & Hanifin-Hamonic > Giordano-Hamilton & Brodie-Hamonic

[robrob74]

32 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Don't change Bax-Frolik is my argument.

No what ifs.

Excellent, excellent pairing.

 

I am not denying they work well together. What I am saying is that I think we can get more production from Backlund with better players.

[FueltheFlames1075]

1 hour ago, stubblejumper1 said:

Glass half full - This trade says to me that Fox had no interest in signing in Calgary, so throwing him in didn't really cost anything.  Lindholm can probably replace Ferland's offence.  Hanifin probably won't score as much as Hamilton, but he will probably be better defensively (which is good because the Flames gave up way too many prime scoring chances last year).  And, if Hamilton truly was a distraction "don't let the door hit you on the way out."

 

Glass half empty - Carolina got the best player in the trade (Hamilton), the Flames decided to improve their anaemic powerplay by trading away the quaterback for two average offensive contributors, the Flames lost one of their few forwards who isn't a feather weight (Ferland), and in a year where they didn't draft until the third round they gave up on a really good prospect (Fox).

 

Viewpoint of a realist - this is a lateral trade that neither helps nor hurts the Flames on the ice.  May help with the salary cap.

 

All in all, a pretty "meh" trade.

 

I think that you are underestimating the talent difference between Lindholm and Ferland.

 

I personally do not think that the Flames needed to add Fox in as a third piece, but I think that the upgrade from Ferland to Lindholm is significant. So we lost some on the defense but pretty much evened it out up front imo.

 

Giving up Fox is what makes it just a little hard to take for me. If he wanted out then we should have dealt him in a separate deal, or received more back from Carolina.

[MAC331]

26 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I am not denying they work well together. What I am saying is that I think we can get more production from Backlund with better players.

Until someone better is added I see Con's point but if we were to add a better talent for RW I wouldn't hesitate to move Frolik down to be a strength elsewhere.

[The_Tribal Chief]

2 minutes ago, FueltheFlames1075 said:

I think that you are underestimating the talent difference between Lindholm and Ferland.

 

I personally do not think that the Flames needed to add Fox in as a third piece, but I think that the upgrade from Ferland to Lindholm is significant. So we lost some on the defense but pretty much evened it out up front imo.

 

Giving up Fox is what makes it just a little hard to take for me. If he wanted out then we should have dealt him in a separate deal, or received more back from Carolina.

Thing is Fox is a Unproven Prospect That is going Back to college but didnt want to resign with calgary so Really How much is he actually worth Well Atleast your getting something and with July 1 just around the corner there wasnt much time for fox and a trade to be worked out

[ABC923]

Just some statistical comparisons:

 

Hamilton: 17 G, 44 Pts, 64 PIMS, +1, 83 Hits, 72 GVA, 31 TKA, 57.4% Corsi, 21:32 TOI

Hanifin: 10G, 32 Pts, 21 PIMS, -20, 81 Hits, 58 GVA, 50 TKA, 56.5% Corsi, 18:52 TOI

 

Hanifin will likely never score goals the way Hamilton can, but he puts up just as many assists and may become a better playmaker.  In the long run, he may well finish ahead of dougie in points.  His +/- is awful, but that may be more the result of the team.  Both players have great possession numbers, and both players are not particularly physical (Hanifin would be 10th on the flames this past year).  The most immediate impact for us is the huge difference in PIMS and the fact that Hanifin has a much more favourable Giveaway/takeaway ratio.  Could easily argue he is better defensively, and could be better in a few years offensively as well.  In 3 years time, it isn't hard to picture Hanifin as the better player.

 

Lindholm: 16G, 44 Pts, 18 PIMS, -8, 98 hits, 34 GVA, 48 TKA, 53.4% Corsi, 17:54 TOI, 10.5 S%

Ferland: 21G, 41 Pts, 24 PIMS, +5, 171 hits, 33 GVA, 35 TKA, 52.1% Corsi, 15:01 TOI, 14.6S%

 

Ferland was the most physical player on the team last year, and that will be missed.  While Lindholm is no slouch, he just doesn't compare.  Ferland also has a higher shooting percentage, and has maintained that for 2 seasons now.  Lindholm saw a several point jump this year, which is a bit concerning.  The one area he truly shines over Ferland is playmaking, racking up significantly more assists.  He also sees regular play on the PP, which for some reason Ferland did not.  Over all, Ferland is the better player from a pure statistical outlook, but given his upcoming UFA status and differences in deployment, I can see the argument in favour of Lindholm, especially if one assumes Ferland mostly benefited from better line mates.