DirtyDeeds Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 2 hours ago, cross16 said: How much credit are you willing to give the coach? AV with the Habs was below .500 Gerrard Gallant was a mess in Columbus. Peter Deboer never made the playoffs in Florida Mike Sullivan won less than 30 games his second year with the Bruins. Coaches we would consider successfull today at one point were considered failures too. Come on Cross you are better than that. Going back 18 years to find a blip in Vigneault's Habs record? he made playoffs and took that team 2 rounds... he was above .500 record when they let him go midway into a season... This guy has no playoff games ever as a NHL head coach in 4 seasons. Bill Peters: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 58 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said: Come on Cross you are better than that. Going back 18 years to find a blip in Vigneault's Habs record? he made playoffs and took that team 2 rounds... he was above .500 record when they let him go midway into a season... This guy has no playoff games ever as a NHL head coach in 4 seasons. Bill Peters: The Habs were 5-13-2 when they let AV go and he was behind 2 expansion teams in the standings. He was under .500 as a coach for the Habs. Then he goes to Vancouver and New York and gets 2 hall of fame goalies and the rest is history. I would actually consider his last 2 years a blemish too but that's not really the point. This is nothing agaisnt AV. It's just pointing out that much of coaching is looking past wins and loses and then even coach who are now considered good or great, have had issues. Peters has never had goaltending the level of AV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, cross16 said: The Habs were 5-13-2 when they let AV go and he was behind 2 expansion teams in the standings. He was under .500 as a coach for the Habs. Then he goes to Vancouver and New York and gets 2 hall of fame goalies and the rest is history. This is nothing agaisnt AV. It's just pointing out that much of coaching is looking past wins and loses and then even coach who are now considered good or great, have had issues. Peters has never had goaltending the level of AV. He hasn't even gotten league average goaltending. Add that to the fact that Carolina is spending 15m-20m under the cap in a division with cap teams like Pittsburgh, Washington, Philadelphia, the Rangers and Columbus. To just say he hasn't coached a playoff team, while true and a concern, it's a very simplistic view and doesn't take a close enough look at the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 28 minutes ago, cross16 said: The Habs were 5-13-2 when they let AV go and he was behind 2 expansion teams in the standings. He was under .500 as a coach for the Habs. Then he goes to Vancouver and New York and gets 2 hall of fame goalies and the rest is history. I would actually consider his last 2 years a blemish too but that's not really the point. This is nothing agaisnt AV. It's just pointing out that much of coaching is looking past wins and loses and then even coach who are now considered good or great, have had issues. Peters has never had goaltending the level of AV. If you are going to give goalies the credit for Vigneault's "6 of 7 winning seasons" in Vancouver" and "4 of the 5 winning seasons" in New York then you have to blame the goalies too for his roughly .500 record in Montreal. Can't use that angle both ways Cross.... It only makes you look bad for picking stats and using them for your points. The reality is you need goalies to have any success as a coach but the success is not totally all because of the goalies you have. In a league where coaches last about 2 to 3 years then this just indicates Vigneault has a much longer shelf life because he is that good and deserves the longer tenure. The New York job is even more so because it is among the toughest division to compete in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 Watched a video of Peters at coaching clinic (it is behind a paywall or I would post it on here), but a couple of things that really stuck out to me are: 1. He talked about analytics and said they were usefully and that he gets stacks and stacks of papers to look through, but the eye test is the most important analytic. 2. He really preaches situational awareness. Knowing where you are on the ice, what time is on the clock, and what the score is. One example he gave was if you are up 3-2 with 5 mins left in the 3rd, are you going to make that extra move at the blue line or just get it deep and get in the forecheck. 3. He has a plan for every situation. If a defenseman is coming out of the box he takes over for one of the tired defensemen on the ice and the tired defenseman becomes a forward, the thinking is that you want the fresh player down low chasing down pucks. It was a really interesting watch. With the situational awareness being a critical thing with him, I wonder how guys like Brodie, Hamilton and Gaudreau will manage with him as they have struggled with that at times, mostly Brodie, but Gaudreau has been guilty of making that extra move at the blue line more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 24 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said: If you are going to give goalies the credit for Vigneault's "6 of 7 winning seasons" in Vancouver" and "4 of the 5 winning seasons" in New York then you have to blame the goalies too for his roughly .500 record in Montreal. Can't use that angle both ways Cross.... It only makes you look bad for picking stats and using them for your points. The reality is you need goalies to have any success as a coach but the success is not totally all because of the goalies you have. In a league where coaches last about 2 to 3 years then this just indicates Vigneault has a much longer shelf life because he is that good and deserves the longer tenure. The New York job is even more so because it is among the toughest division to compete in. I think you are missing what I am saying. Again, this is not against AV nor have I ever said he is a bad coach or not a good coach and nowhere did I pick stats. I would agree and would say that goaltending was a downfall for AV in Montreal and a success for him elsewhere. It absolutely works in both directions as it does for many coaches. The point was you have to look past wins and losses. Yes everyone is just going to respond "it's a results based league" but reality is it's not always that way for a coach. You need to look past wins and loses before we suggest who is and isn't a successful or failure as a coach. Even good coaches, which i would agree AV is, have situations that don't look good on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 24 minutes ago, JTech780 said: 2. He really preaches situational awareness. He had me at situational awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 2 hours ago, JTech780 said: Just to add to earlier tweet. What is the pedigree of this Dmen though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, robrob74 said: What is the pedigree of this Dmen though? Slavin was a 4th rounder Pesce was a 3rd rounder Hanifin was a 1st rounder Fleury was a 1st rounder Kulak was a 4th rounder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 Just now, JTech780 said: Slavin was a 4th rounder Pesce was a 3rd rounder Hanifin was a 1st rounder Fleury was a 1st rounder Kulak was a 4th rounder Giordano wasn’t drafted. but does Kulak have the pedigree to play more minutes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, robrob74 said: Giordano wasn’t drafted. Ok??? I was basically just pointing out that Peters doesn't shy away from using his young players, where Gulutzan tended to ride his vets and not give rookies a lot of ice time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, JTech780 said: Ok??? I was basically just pointing out that Peters doesn't shy away from using his young players, where Gulutzan tended to ride his vets and not give rookies a lot of ice time. Really ? what young players are you talking about here ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, MAC331 said: Really ? what young players are you talking about here ? Kulak, Mangiapane, Klimchuk. Players like Andersson and Foo got more of chance, but that came at the end of the season when the games didn't matter and the team was ravaged by injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 1 minute ago, JTech780 said: Kulak, Mangiapane, Klimchuk. Players like Andersson and Foo got more of chance, but that came at the end of the season when the games didn't matter and the team was ravaged by injuries. Outside of Kulak who was given the majority of playing time these others were not even considered regulars for the team. CAR had a totally different scenario. I don't know much about Peters but I will say if he has a better idea of who to play with who on our team he will be better than GG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted April 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 1 hour ago, JTech780 said: He hasn't even gotten league average goaltending. Add that to the fact that Carolina is spending 15m-20m under the cap in a division with cap teams like Pittsburgh, Washington, Philadelphia, the Rangers and Columbus. To just say he hasn't coached a playoff team, while true and a concern, it's a very simplistic view and doesn't take a close enough look at the facts. totally agree.. most of his lineup last year would be in our bottom 6 at best Position Starter 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th Left Wing S. Aho J. Skinner B. McGinn W. Foegele Center J. Staal E. Lindholm V. Rask N. Roy Right Wing T. Teravainen J. Williams P. Di Giuseppe M. Necas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, MAC331 said: Outside of Kulak who was given the majority of playing time these others were not even considered regulars for the team. CAR had a totally different scenario. I don't know much about Peters but I will say if he has a better idea of who to play with who on our team he will be better than GG. Zykov wasn't a regular for Carolina and Peters gave him in the top 6 and one the PP and he responded by putting up 7 points in 10 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, JTech780 said: Zykov wasn't a regular for Carolina and Peters gave him in the top 6 and one the PP and he responded by putting up 7 points in 10 games. Good for him, there was lots of opportunity in their forward ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, MAC331 said: Good for him, there was lots of opportunity in their forward ranks. There was lots of opportunity in our forward ranks too, Mangiapane didn't get much a chance to show what he could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, JTech780 said: There was lots of opportunity in our forward ranks too, Mangiapane didn't get much a chance to show what he could do. Who was Mangiapane going to replace on a regular basis ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, MAC331 said: Who was Mangiapane going to replace on a regular basis ? On a regular basis, probably no one , but that isn't the point. If he is called up why aren't you putting him in a position to succeed instead of having Brouwer play top 6 and PP minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 42 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said: Come on Cross you are better than that. Going back 18 years to find a blip in Vigneault's Habs record? he made playoffs and took that team 2 rounds... he was above .500 record when they let him go midway into a season... This guy has no playoff games ever as a NHL head coach in 4 seasons. Bill Peters: Exactly. I'm not hating on Peters, I'm sure he's a good coach. I'm just not sure why so many are convinced he's the right coach based off his NHL resume. We just went through this with GG, not sure why some are so eager to keep gambling with unproven coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, JTech780 said: On a regular basis, probably no one , but that isn't the point. If he is called up why aren't you putting him in a position to succeed instead of having Brouwer play top 6 and PP minutes. I am tired of hearing about Brouwer being the reason our whole team is out of whack. You of all people should fully understand that Brouwer is going to play somewhere no matter what. Brouwer did his job this season end of story. There is nothing wrong with having players such as Mangiapane further developing their skills as depth in the AHL.As a matter of success we could use more like him in the AHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, rickross said: Exactly. I'm not hating on Peters, I'm sure he's a good coach. I'm just not sure why so many are convinced he's the right coach based off his NHL resume. We just went through this with GG, not sure why some are so eager to keep gambling with unproven coaches. Take a look around many so called proven coaches have periods of failure. Even real good ones lose their jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, MAC331 said: I am tired of hearing about Brouwer being the reason our whole team is out of whack. You of all people should fully understand that Brouwer is going to play somewhere no matter what. Brouwer did his job this season end of story. There is nothing wrong with having players such as Mangiapane further developing their skills as depth in the AHL.As a matter of success we could use more like him in the AHL. You really aren't understanding anything I am saying, I didn't blame Brouwer for anything, but is a he a player I want on my PP or in my top 9, no, I think Mangiapane when he is up here on a call up should be playing in those roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 21, 2018 Report Share Posted April 21, 2018 16 minutes ago, rickross said: Exactly. I'm not hating on Peters, I'm sure he's a good coach. I'm just not sure why so many are convinced he's the right coach based off his NHL resume. We just went through this with GG, not sure why some are so eager to keep gambling with unproven coaches. For me it comes down to style of play and use of young players. Vigneault and Sutter are good coaches but I don't think their style of play and the way they ride veteran players is a fit for our team. I also think that a lot of Vigneault's and Sutter's success comes from having elite goaltending, and Peters lack of success comes from having league worst goaltending. The other thing here is Treliving probably knows that regardless of who he hires this is most likely going to be his last coach. So he has to go with who he thinks will give him the best chance of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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