phoenix66 Posted April 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2018 56 minutes ago, tmac70 said: They each have options. If ownership does supersede the GM, he may as well resign. To be Real Honest , I don't put a whole lot of stock into this "Ownership is meddling " talk that is surrounding Sutter . Just due to the history since the Ken King era ended and the way I know their dynamic has shown it to be. Recent things that we know as fact: - BT has stated he has no constraints salary wise when it comes to hiring this coach - He wants and has stated , a coach that has NHL experience - It has been stated by all parties , many times, he consults and relies on Brian Burke in many situations , but final decisions are BT's - When the last coach was hired , Randy Carlyle was a candidate through the whole process, its safe to say this was a BB suggestion , he's a BB guy so it makes sense, but in the end it was BT's guy that got hired - based on the last hire , when GG was hired , he needed sign off on the contract from BB and ownership What likely is happening , or happened here : They had their big meeting in Banff, and the conclusion was that GG needed to go . BT and / or BB pointed out to ownership that if they wanted something proven, more solid this time. they will need to pay the new coach , not shop on a budget - BIll Peters makes 1.6M in Carolina , safe to say where he ends up he will be higher than that , I can see the 2.5 to 4 range based on coaches these days .. I read somewhere that GG made about 1 or just under Ownership,(and this is their right since they write checks ) likely said OK , but with a caveat that it needs to be a solid proven guy. If it's not , we're not writing a big check for that - Could KK be suggesting names? absolutely and due to the past history that name was likely Darryl Sutter - they wanted him to return to behind the bench before he left , he resigned instead of firing his Brother - Could BB be suggesting names ? absolutely , that's his job and in many ways his Job is tied to BT.. if BT fails he could be gone too - Will BT have to explain who he is hiring and justify why he picked him and why he wants to pay him $X? absolutely ..that's his job - Could he say he wants to hire Bill Peters and pay him $4M and be told No, we'll only give you $2M for him ? yes.. but again its his job to sell that to them and all indications is he has BB in his corner to back his decisions and let it be his hire again Do I believe that Ownership/ KK could be saying " we really like Darryl, make sure you take a hard look at him " yes.. absolutely . and that is no different than BB telling him last time " Take a hard look at Carlyle" Do I believe Ownership/ KK is saying " you're going to Hire Darryl Sutter "? absolutely not . That's jumping multiple levels of delegation If Ownership is "demanding " it .. then KK would be ticked , cuz that's what he hired BB for and that's stepping on KK's toes If KK is demanding it, then BB should be ticked cuz that's what he was hired for It's silly to believe for one second that brainstorming ISN'T happening ..everybody throwing out names and suggestions .and BT has probably asked them to. BB has a history in the league, BT has a fairly recent list of people he interviewed last time , KK and owners are going to throw their 2 cents in as well But somebody hears "Ownership is pushing for Darryl Sutter" and people hear "Owners are meddling and telling BT who to Hire " The tell take for me was hearing "BT is pushing for Peters and Ownership wants him to Hire Sutter ".. because seriously , when has anybody ever known what BT was wanting or doing before he did it ?? Nope sorry .. even if Sutter does get hired, it will be because BT interviewed him and decided he was the guy he wanted .. nobody is making him do anything , except maybe to interview him . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 19, 2018 Report Share Posted April 19, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted April 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2018 15 minutes ago, JTech780 said: just saw this too, was actually just coming in to post it LOL so good chance we don't have to wait over a month this time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted April 19, 2018 Report Share Posted April 19, 2018 Should be getting some news tomorrow as it’s Peters last day to opt out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 On 2018-04-18 at 2:31 PM, DirtyDeeds said: Av has taken 2 different teams to the stanley cup finals. As for his loyalties I am sure he wants a SC on his resume as much as anyone. As for comments he might be better suited to coaching vets, a coach can only coach what he is given. We dont really know how he would handle a young and talented team only because he has never had one. We do know he has good systems and has had good PP's. Some say he got the Canucks when they got into their primes. He got the Canucks when the twins were basically still 2nd liners, Kesler was at par with Lombardi and Burrows was just discovered. He placed a defensive system that allowed them to flourish and then transitioned and changed the system into a powerhouse. When AV started, we all thought the Canucks would continue to suck. everyone remembers the team they changed into. I dont get the idea that he can’t coach youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
420since1974 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 I don't follow coaches near as much as I do players, but I feel that hiring AV would be a safer choice than Peters. For me, it comes down to NHL experience. If BT is risking his job on the next coach hiring, I'm betting he goes that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zima Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 I still wouldn't be surprised to see BT and or BB given there walking papers before draft day. BT hasn't been a success with us so far. Blaming the coaches is a smoke screen for him he knew what this team needed from the start like goalies which he did try I guess but failed till now but Smith can't stop every thing. The trades on D was as far as I'm concerned should have made us better but losing a first perhaps even a top 6 really hurts but I'm sure he never expected it to go so far down hill but not protecting for the lottery was a huge mistake . GG might have been the coach but i bet BT made a few decisions that GG was not happy with when it came to player movements. Im leaning towards a c to c- this yr on his work as a whole. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Davis1891 said: Do we think Treliving is professional enough to put aside the emotional aspect of hiring Sutter as coach? As a manager in my industry of 20 years, I once hired a previous manager and it was a defining and learning mistake. Would never do that again. I'm not saying Sutter would undercut him or anything, but if I was BT I'd always have the wonder and fear in the back of my mind. Would he put himself in that position? Would he choose another coach because of that reason? Maybe that's why ownership is getting involved. A good manger trains his replacement. Replacement for when he might be sick or away and replacement to carry on the job after he is gone. Sometimes it is difficult to find the best qualified for the job and then fit them in to all the other garbage that comes with a high profile job.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 For Treliving there is little to no room for error. I get the hype for Peters but his lack of success in the NHL as me hesitant. Tre is looking for someone with a trove of NHL experience so I'm not sure Peters is the best fit. Tippett is always an option with the former Coyotes management now apart of the Flames. AV is an interesting candidate as he now knows the East and West divs very well and has found success on both fronts. He'd be pretty hard to ignore with his resume but I don't believe he's the one Tre has in mind. Trotz is a solid coach....I don't believe I've ever seen his neck to be honest lol. If he's let go he'd be a strong coach but perhaps he's not the best option for where the game is trending. I dont want Sutter back personally, been there done that. He's a good coach but I'm not looking to keep revisiting that past. He plays an effective but boring game of hockey... his style of hockey is great!...for insomniacs. I think there's still some coaches that become available and wouldn't mind BT taking a little more time to assess his options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 In the history of the NHL only 3 coaches have won Cups with multiple teams. Mike Sullivan had zero playoff success as coach and now he has 2 Cups. Quenneville had never been to a Cup final before going to Chicago and now has 3 Cups. Claude Julien had two playoff appearances before going to Boston and winning a Cup. This idea that we need a proven winner is a load of crap. What is the old adage? Show me a good coach and I will show you a good goaltender. Alain Vigneault: Jose Theodore, Roberto Luongo, Henrik Lundqvist Darryl Sutter: Ed Belfour, Evgeni Nabokov, Miikka Kiprusoff, Jonathan Quick Bill Peters: Cam Ward, Eddie Lack, Scott Darling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cccsberg Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 40 minutes ago, rickross said: For Treliving there is little to no room for error. I get the hype for Peters but his lack of success in the NHL as me hesitant. Tre is looking for someone with a trove of NHL experience so I'm not sure Peters is the best fit. Tippett is always an option with the former Coyotes management now apart of the Flames. AV is an interesting candidate as he now knows the East and West divs very well and has found success on both fronts. He'd be pretty hard to ignore with his resume but I don't believe he's the one Tre has in mind. Trotz is a solid coach....I don't believe I've ever seen his neck to be honest lol. If he's let go he'd be a strong coach but perhaps he's not the best option for where the game is trending. I dont want Sutter back personally, been there done that. He's a good coach but I'm not looking to keep revisiting that past. He plays an effective but boring game of hockey... his style of hockey is great!...for insomniacs. I think there's still some coaches that become available and wouldn't mind BT taking a little more time to assess his options. There are always positives and negatives for every coach and player, and potential reasons why there was no success. As far as Peters goes, from what I’ve read his history is better than GG, he is more direct and accountability is a major factor on who he plays. That is one of the things this team desperately needs, not only to clear out ineffective vets, and youngsters, but to enhance the level of play throughout. He also plays an up-tempo, aggressive fore-check fast game which I’d also like to see. Hope we get him then start the process of rebuilding the team’s style with players willing to give their all. As for his lack of playoff success goes, I’d buy the tough division/ non-salary cap story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 16 hours ago, phoenix66 said: To be Real Honest , I don't put a whole lot of stock into this "Ownership is meddling " talk that is surrounding Sutter . Just due to the history since the Ken King era ended and the way I know their dynamic has shown it to be. Recent things that we know as fact: - BT has stated he has no constraints salary wise when it comes to hiring this coach - He wants and has stated , a coach that has NHL experience - It has been stated by all parties , many times, he consults and relies on Brian Burke in many situations , but final decisions are BT's - When the last coach was hired , Randy Carlyle was a candidate through the whole process, its safe to say this was a BB suggestion , he's a BB guy so it makes sense, but in the end it was BT's guy that got hired - based on the last hire , when GG was hired , he needed sign off on the contract from BB and ownership What likely is happening , or happened here : They had their big meeting in Banff, and the conclusion was that GG needed to go . BT and / or BB pointed out to ownership that if they wanted something proven, more solid this time. they will need to pay the new coach , not shop on a budget - BIll Peters makes 1.6M in Carolina , safe to say where he ends up he will be higher than that , I can see the 2.5 to 4 range based on coaches these days .. I read somewhere that GG made about 1 or just under Ownership,(and this is their right since they write checks ) likely said OK , but with a caveat that it needs to be a solid proven guy. If it's not , we're not writing a big check for that - Could KK be suggesting names? absolutely and due to the past history that name was likely Darryl Sutter - they wanted him to return to behind the bench before he left , he resigned instead of firing his Brother - Could BB be suggesting names ? absolutely , that's his job and in many ways his Job is tied to BT.. if BT fails he could be gone too - Will BT have to explain who he is hiring and justify why he picked him and why he wants to pay him $X? absolutely ..that's his job - Could he say he wants to hire Bill Peters and pay him $4M and be told No, we'll only give you $2M for him ? yes.. but again its his job to sell that to them and all indications is he has BB in his corner to back his decisions and let it be his hire again Do I believe that Ownership/ KK could be saying " we really like Darryl, make sure you take a hard look at him " yes.. absolutely . and that is no different than BB telling him last time " Take a hard look at Carlyle" Do I believe Ownership/ KK is saying " you're going to Hire Darryl Sutter "? absolutely not . That's jumping multiple levels of delegation If Ownership is "demanding " it .. then KK would be ticked , cuz that's what he hired BB for and that's stepping on KK's toes If KK is demanding it, then BB should be ticked cuz that's what he was hired for It's silly to believe for one second that brainstorming ISN'T happening ..everybody throwing out names and suggestions .and BT has probably asked them to. BB has a history in the league, BT has a fairly recent list of people he interviewed last time , KK and owners are going to throw their 2 cents in as well But somebody hears "Ownership is pushing for Darryl Sutter" and people hear "Owners are meddling and telling BT who to Hire " The tell take for me was hearing "BT is pushing for Peters and Ownership wants him to Hire Sutter ".. because seriously , when has anybody ever known what BT was wanting or doing before he did it ?? Nope sorry .. even if Sutter does get hired, it will be because BT interviewed him and decided he was the guy he wanted .. nobody is making him do anything , except maybe to interview him . I think it would be Sutter saying NO THANKS to be honest about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted April 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 Everything I'm reading on Peters, is telling me the philosophy and play style is similar to GG. BT was real strong on the "continuity" aspect , and with Peters it seems the players wont be learning a whole new system. So if you believed in what GG was trying to get them to do (I did) , this is a good thing . Where the big difference it seems comes in , is he's far better at the player management side (like knowing a Troy Brouwer shouldn't be on the PP) and it will be a big change from the "Golly Gee Shucks" you seemed to get from GG. I'd expect more pressers like you get from Todd up North . And for those who still miss the Bob Hartley Days , this should make you smile "Everything once you get here is on an as-earned basis. We don’t care how old you are, we don’t really care where you’re drafted. We care about results." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 12 minutes ago, cccsberg said: There are always positives and negatives for every coach and player, and potential reasons why there was no success. As far as Peters goes, from what I’ve read his history is better than GG, he is more direct and accountability is a major factor on who he plays. That is one of the things this team desperately needs, not only to clear out ineffective vets, and youngsters, but to enhance the level of play throughout. He also plays an up-tempo, aggressive fore-check fast game which I’d also like to see. Hope we get him then start the process of rebuilding the team’s style with players willing to give their all. As for his lack of playoff success goes, I’d buy the tough division/ non-salary cap story. Peters has been facing the same things in CAR that GG faced here and that was having teams not quite ready to be consistent winners. Timing there or timing here will dictate success most times. If he walks from CAR I think he is our next Coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted April 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, MAC331 said: I think it would be Sutter saying NO THANKS to be honest about it. I can totally see that.. many reasons why he wouldn't even come back here . He would likely be constantly hearing references to his GM days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted April 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, MAC331 said: Peters has been facing the same things in CAR that GG faced here and that was having teams not quite ready to be consistent winners. Timing there or timing here will dictate success most times. If he walks from CAR I think he is our next Coach. Everything I'm hearing seems to indicate its a done deal, unless Dallas blows our offer out of the water . He's getting ready to leave for the WC, today is the supposed window deadline .. an announcement on the weekend will not surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 Sure sounds it it's Peters. I get people will make the Gultuzan comparison but IMO that is flawed and too simplistic. First off, Peters is much more respect in the hockey community including Hockey Canada (I personally put alot of stock into this). Second, while their system are similar their are some differences too. Peters and the Canes played faster and quicker in transition. They are not as shy to take the puck and turn it the other way as the Flames were this year. From a visual perspective, I would look at how the Flames played for the bulk of last year as a better example of Peters system. I don't think we had as many "system" complaints last year as we did this year with the tweaks the Flames made this year, so as long as Peters can adapt and go back more to what the Flames did last year I think they are in great shape. Even if there are similarities no 2 coaches are identical , so to draw the conclusion this is "just another Gulutzan" is IMO also very flawed. On paper, Mike Sullivan looked like another Gulutzan too when the Pens hired him. The reality is, until you try it you really do not know how a coach is going to turn out. IMO, judging and predicting coaches is entirely a fools game and thus why I think it's the most difficult job a GM has. It is very much a science experiment where you are hoping to get the right mix to produce the right results, but you won't know until you try. The only concern with Peters would be the PP and you hope that they target a good PP assistant for him. That being said, it's also a bit of a chicken-egg thing because the Canes lack alot of forward talent so is it the PP or is the talent level? If you just give Peters PP the Flames players will it be more successful? Can't answer that so we'll have to see but I would like to see them go with a more inovativestyle PP. Be nice if they could steal a currently employed one (Bob Woods or Joe Mullen in Philly) but that may be tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, cross16 said: Sure sounds it it's Peters. I get people will make the Gultuzan comparison but IMO that is flawed and too simplistic. First off, Peters is much more respect in the hockey community including Hockey Canada (I personally put alot of stock into this). Second, while their system are similar their are some differences too. Peters and the Canes played faster and quicker in transition. They are not as shy to take the puck and turn it the other way as the Flames were this year. From a visual perspective, I would look at how the Flames played for the bulk of last year as a better example of Peters system. I don't think we had as many "system" complaints last year as we did this year with the tweaks the Flames made this year, so as long as Peters can adapt and go back more to what the Flames did last year I think they are in great shape. Even if there are similarities no 2 coaches are identical , so to draw the conclusion this is "just another Gulutzan" is IMO also very flawed. On paper, Mike Sullivan looked like another Gulutzan too when the Pens hired him. The reality is, until you try it you really do not know how a coach is going to turn out. IMO, judging and predicting coaches is entirely a fools game and thus why I think it's the most difficult job a GM has. It is very much a science experiment where you are hoping to get the right mix to produce the right results, but you won't know until you try. The only concern with Peters would be the PP and you hope that they target a good PP assistant for him. That being said, it's also a bit of a chicken-egg thing because the Canes lack alot of forward talent so is it the PP or is the talent level? If you just give Peters PP the Flames players will it be more successful? Can't answer that so we'll have to see but I would like to see them go with a more inovativestyle PP. Be nice if they could steal a currently employed one (Bob Woods or Joe Mullen in Philly) but that may be tough. I was impressed with CAR when they played here . Their quickness and transition game was very noticeable. CAR is also a very close team to breaking out but their loss would be our gain by the looks of things. Fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted April 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 Bill Peters has resigned from Carolina shouldn't be long now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 Word is the Rangers and Dallas also spoke to the Canes as well so this is not a one way negotiation. That being said all buzz i've hears is his preference is the Flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted April 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, cross16 said: Word is the Rangers and Dallas also spoke to the Canes as well so this is not a one way negotiation. That being said all buzz i've hears is his preference is the Flames. I figure its either he signs some where right away , or this all waits until the WC are over Whenever my fear of his track record is giving me doubts about him i just tell myself Pete DeBoer is looking pretty good in SJ right now It may be a moot point.. but I wonder why a name Jack Capuano isn't out there .. had the NYI in the playoffs 3/6 years 3 in the last 4. His PP was always near top . Travis Hamonic had his best season under him not saying hes the guy but what am I missing that doesn't have his name out there ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 Have to admit it would be a little funny if after all this Dallas or something hired him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted April 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 1 hour ago, cross16 said: Have to admit it would be a little funny if after all this Dallas or something hired him... I could actually see the NYR being a good fit and making a big offer . They do after all, want someone whos developmental Ironically knowing that Carolina is sounding pretty cheap(word was they were offering only 400K for the GM job ) I can see GG getting a new job pretty quick there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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