FlameFan4Life Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 minute ago, travel_dude said: You are saying that a defenseman at age 26 is in the twilight? That is the beginning of the primer for that position. Not everyone is Ekblad who is a top pair guy at age 18. Most come into their primes between age 23 and 26, so yeah, Ekblad will probably get even better. Same goes for Dougie. The goalie has nothing to do with the value of the defender. You have the skills or you don't. You may take some time before you are at the top of your game, like Gio. We paid a 5th just to have the chance to sign Wideman to a bloated contract. A 5th if we actually sign Stone is possibly nothing in 2018. By then we could have better picks from other trades. A 3rd for a player that could stabilize (or help) one of the pairings is nothing. In response to the second statement, I understand what you are getting at but I think a goalie does have an effect on the value of a Dman. Normally I agree with most of what you say but in the statement I feel they go hand in hand. Yes either you have skills or you don't but some defenders have different areas they excell in. Put a goalie in the net that the team has faith in and watch an offensive Dman go end to end , or take more risk jumping up and making that big play, pinching in and helping the forwards taking himself out of position and getting the assist on the tying goal. Or you never see him do that all year because he is to worried that if this time he get's caught pinching the play goes the other way and the goalie doesn't make the big stop. A good Dman can be burried on a team and never seem to live up to his potential but the whole time it was there just replaced by having to pick up someone else's slack. Brodie is a great example, he has shown he can be a plus player, put up big points but pair him with Wideman and he is a minus 24. So the goalie IMO does have to do with the value of a defender. I think without a good trusted goalie in net and offensive puck moving Dman is worth less because his mind and play is else where picking up some slack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 57 minutes ago, FlameFan4Life said: In response to the second statement, I understand what you are getting at but I think a goalie does have an effect on the value of a Dman. Normally I agree with most of what you say but in the statement I feel they go hand in hand. Yes either you have skills or you don't but some defenders have different areas they excell in. Put a goalie in the net that the team has faith in and watch an offensive Dman go end to end , or take more risk jumping up and making that big play, pinching in and helping the forwards taking himself out of position and getting the assist on the tying goal. Or you never see him do that all year because he is to worried that if this time he get's caught pinching the play goes the other way and the goalie doesn't make the big stop. A good Dman can be burried on a team and never seem to live up to his potential but the whole time it was there just replaced by having to pick up someone else's slack. Brodie is a great example, he has shown he can be a plus player, put up big points but pair him with Wideman and he is a minus 24. So the goalie IMO does have to do with the value of a defender. I think without a good trusted goalie in net and offensive puck moving Dman is worth less because his mind and play is else where picking up some slack. We had terrible goalies last season and that had zero effect on the value of Dougie. May have effected the stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlameFan4Life Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 No I agree, it did not effect they way Dougie played or was told to play. That does not mean it doesn't change the way dmen play in general, or that a goalies talent does not effect a dmans abilities or usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 29 minutes ago, FlameFan4Life said: No I agree, it did not effect they way Dougie played or was told to play. That does not mean it doesn't change the way dmen play in general, or that a goalies talent does not effect a dmans abilities or usage. My point was strictly about value. You could have Burns on your team and Hiller. His value is still the same, while his results will change. I think we are agreed in what we are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 39 minutes ago, travel_dude said: ou could have Burns on your team and Hiller. His value is still the same, while his results will change. Fire the coach that put Hiller in the net... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Kudos to BT for focusing on where he needs to, our D, and RD. And I like Michael Stone. Was this the right move, at the right price? I don't know. It depends what he signs with the Flames at, and IF he signs with the Flames, and how well he performs. IMHO we needed another big, young RH, Elite D. Big? Check. RH? Check. Young? Sort of pass there. Elite? ......hmm. He's decent, and he has upside from his current performance. Maybe the Flames don't see the need for that Elite RH D. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Just now, jjgallow said: Maybe the Flames don't see the need for that Elite RH D. We'll see. I think what is far more likely is that that is next to impossible to acquire. Hamilton was a gift and someone who never should have been on the market in the first place. I'm sure if there is another trade like that the Flames would take it in a heartbeat, but its a next to impossible trade to pull off. RH dman don't grow on trees and they hit the trade market and free agent market even less frequently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlameFan4Life Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Yeah just a different way of seeing things. If a dman is a scorer and needs to be with a stay at home to play to his potential it is the same thing. Put him with wideman and he is being paid to pick up the slack instead of score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 14 minutes ago, cross16 said: I think what is far more likely is that that is next to impossible to acquire. Hamilton was a gift and someone who never should have been on the market in the first place. I'm sure if there is another trade like that the Flames would take it in a heartbeat, but its a next to impossible trade to pull off. RH dman don't grow on trees and they hit the trade market and free agent market even less frequently. Also adding a legit young top 4 RHD now creates issues for the expansion draft. I think this is a move to help with our depth now, and a possible Engelland replacement for next year. And they might address adding another top 4 D after the expansion draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, JTech780 said: Also adding a legit young top 4 RHD now creates issues for the expansion draft. I think this is a move to help with our depth now, and a possible Engelland replacement for next year. And they might address adding another top 4 D after the expansion draft. I agree. A dman with term wasn't coming here prior to the expansion draft. That being said expansion draft or not Elite dmen are extremely tough to acquire. Basically need to draft them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Stone was actually..(pardon the pun! ha) solid last night! You can't understate the value of a big right hand shot Dman. He wasn't mesmerizing but he did a lot of the right things and he looked pretty sound positionally. For a 3rd and potential 5th rounder its looking like a good trade. With his wife being from Calgary an extension at a value price is likely..especially with him having an off year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 On 2/21/2017 at 4:12 PM, cross16 said: I think what is far more likely is that that is next to impossible to acquire. Hamilton was a gift and someone who never should have been on the market in the first place. I'm sure if there is another trade like that the Flames would take it in a heartbeat, but its a next to impossible trade to pull off. RH dman don't grow on trees and they hit the trade market and free agent market even less frequently. Very true. On the other hand, the draft picks they gave up, have the potential to yield elite something (including elite RH D). And like you say, some positions are next to impossible to acquire after they've been developed. Thus the importance of draft picks. I'm not saying it was a bad trade, but I am saying it depends on whether they actually sign him to an affordable contract and he contributes in a useful way here. Because the Flame's chances of drafting an elite darkhorse in the next couple drafts (which I think they need more), just went down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, jjgallow said: Very true. On the other hand, the draft picks they gave up, have the potential to yield elite something (including elite RH D). And like you say, some positions are next to impossible to acquire after they've been developed. Thus the importance of draft picks. I'm not saying it was a bad trade, but I am saying it depends on whether they actually sign him to an affordable contract and he contributes in a useful way here. Because the Flame's chances of drafting an elite darkhorse in the next couple drafts (which I think they need more), just went down. I guess but I think this is reaching a fair bit to say the Flames arn't serious about getting an elite RH dman becuae they gave up a 3rd round pick. Espeiclally a 3rd rounder in a weak draft. From 2001 to 2010 2 dman picked in the 3rd round or later you could argue are elite and that is Letang and Byfuglien. Sure you have some names like Sami Vantanen, Tyson Barrie, Denis Seidenberg thrown in there but those are solid players not elite so odds are minisclue at best that any team, let alone Flames, would fine an elite RH dman in the 3rd round. See if the trade works out thought I don't disagree there. Worth the risk even if it doesn't though, IMO at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 14 minutes ago, jjgallow said: Very true. On the other hand, the draft picks they gave up, have the potential to yield elite something (including elite RH D). And like you say, some positions are next to impossible to acquire after they've been developed. Thus the importance of draft picks. I'm not saying it was a bad trade, but I am saying it depends on whether they actually sign him to an affordable contract and he contributes in a useful way here. Because the Flame's chances of drafting an elite darkhorse in the next couple drafts (which I think they need more), just went down. Might as well sit around and hope you win the lottery as well. There is a cost to getting your team the help it needs both now and in the future, speculating on who or what that 3rd round pick becomes is a useless exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 ARI's recalled DeAngelo to replace Stone. Surmising they didn't want to wait any longer. Good eye by Treliving imho. I shed no tears for ARI if it goes our way. Strome Dvorak Domi Perlini Crouse Fischer Duclair OEL - believe it or not, is only 25. Murphy Chychrun Smith is getting long in the tooth, but when he's healthy, he can own any team on any given night. No remorse offered to ARI, they are frigging stacked with young talent. It's almost sickening, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted February 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, conundrumed said: ARI's recalled DeAngelo to replace Stone. Surmising they didn't want to wait any longer. Good eye by Treliving imho. I shed no tears for ARI if it goes our way. Strome Dvorak Domi Perlini Crouse Fischer Duclair OEL - believe it or not, is only 25. Murphy Chychrun Smith is getting long in the tooth, but when he's healthy, he can own any team on any given night. No remorse offered to ARI, they are frigging stacked with young talent. It's almost sickening, lol. They have a lot 2nd and 3rd line type forwards, I think Strome, Perlini, Crouse, and Duclair are all pretty overrated. I do like Crouse I just don't think there is a lot of offense there. Strome I think is going to struggle at the NHL level, Perlini and Duclair are 3rd liners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 40 minutes ago, JTech780 said: They have a lot 2nd and 3rd line type forwards, I think Strome, Perlini, Crouse, and Duclair are all pretty overrated. I do like Crouse I just don't think there is a lot of offense there. Strome I think is going to struggle at the NHL level, Perlini and Duclair are 3rd liners. How old is each of those guys again? Little early for that, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted February 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 34 minutes ago, conundrumed said: How old is each of those guys again? Little early for that, isn't it? I am always looking at prospects and trying to project them, that's just how I project those guys. I could be wrong, but that's just how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zima Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 I am positive about 1 thing if he signs next season it will be term and will be over 3 figures. with in 1 season every one will not be happy with his play and want to trade him just like Gio because hes not the player he use to be. I don't think stone is of the calibure of Gio so I doubt the term he will ask is going to fly plus I think Cal is going to go after Russell next yr as well probably won't get him now but will try. Stone will head to highest bidder he is in his last yrs wants to cash in big with term im sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, zima said: I am positive about 1 thing if he signs next season it will be term and will be over 3 figures. with in 1 season every one will not be happy with his play and want to trade him just like Gio because hes not the player he use to be. I don't think stone is of the calibure of Gio so I doubt the term he will ask is going to fly plus I think Cal is going to go after Russell next yr as well probably won't get him now but will try. Stone will head to highest bidder he is in his last yrs wants to cash in big with term im sure. Who is Cal ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 17 hours ago, conundrumed said: How old is each of those guys again? Little early for that, isn't it? I would take Crouse as a 3rd line LW in a heartbeat but does anyone really see ARZ dealing away their youth ? He is another Ferland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zima Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Really ? Ok lets go with Calgary does that help at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Just now, zima said: Really ? Ok lets go with Calgary does that help at all? You have some many nicknames for people, was just making sure. I think the Russell train has left the yard for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zima Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Good point I do try not to comment to much on this forum any more but some times I just can't help myself I will try harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted February 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 11 minutes ago, zima said: I am positive about 1 thing if he signs next season it will be term and will be over 3 figures. with in 1 season every one will not be happy with his play and want to trade him just like Gio because hes not the player he use to be. I don't think stone is of the calibure of Gio so I doubt the term he will ask is going to fly plus I think Cal is going to go after Russell next yr as well probably won't get him now but will try. Stone will head to highest bidder he is in his last yrs wants to cash in big with term im sure. Who is going to give him term? Max term he gets anywhere is probably 4 years, but I think 3 years is more likely. Plus after a down year this year he is looking at getting less than the $4m he is currently getting. His wife is from here, and the rumors going around is that he was looking at houses in Calgary earlier in the year. So i think he would come here on a somewhat of a hometown discount. I am thinking it would cost something like 2-3 years at $2.5-3.5m The Penguins just gave up a 2nd for soon to be 36 year old Ron Hainsey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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