Flames Defense

[jjgallow]

43 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

this was my problem for the past 2-3 drafts. We went years before drafting Valamaki and then the same since drafting him. We needed to continue to draft all positions because running the risk of not having players come in to replace aging ones is too high. It means you have no plan. I was upset trading down because I wanted a D or RW. The rest of that draft we saw RHS players go picks just after ours. But it was all good after we took a flyer on an offensive skating D who can’t play defensive hockey. I’ve heard that one before in Kylington. But it’s a good high reward move if he pans out, but I just don’t see it happening. 
 

but we didn’t plan for the future before and paid for it, and it looks like we aren’t planning for the future again. 
 

I might need to jump ship and route for a team that knows how to build… because the Flames really makes me feel like I am constantly hitting my head against a brick wall wondering what they’re doing or waiting for them to do something of note.

 

I can be pretty negative but I would never encourage anyone to jump ship, I actually think we will turn the corner sooner than later here because of necessity.

 

One you get into that bottom 5 there is no pretending things are okay.     Truthfully I would be hard on most teams, just not all.

 

Flames will always be my NHL team.    But how much time I spend watching junior, or the AHL, or better yet actually getting out on the ice myself is another matter.   It's not like we can just start cheering for Edmonton lol, I'm okay for cheering for an underdog but I can't go that far.

[sak22]

57 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

this was my problem for the past 2-3 drafts. We went years before drafting Valamaki and then the same since drafting him. We needed to continue to draft all positions because running the risk of not having players come in to replace aging ones is too high. It means you have no plan. I was upset trading down because I wanted a D or RW. The rest of that draft we saw RHS players go picks just after ours. But it was all good after we took a flyer on an offensive skating D who can’t play defensive hockey. I’ve heard that one before in Kylington. But it’s a good high reward move if he pans out, but I just don’t see it happening. 
 

but we didn’t plan for the future before and paid for it, and it looks like we aren’t planning for the future again. 
 

I might need to jump ship and route for a team that knows how to build… because the Flames really makes me feel like I am constantly hitting my head against a brick wall wondering what they’re doing or waiting for them to do something of note.

Go for it.  If you follow other teams for as long as you've followed the Flames you'll find the exact same thing unless you jump from ship to ship.  You make it sound like this is a Flames specific problem.  I'm almost 40, teams I've never seen win the cup: Maple Leafs, Senators, Canucks, Sabres, Sharks, Jets/Coyotes, Thrashers/Jets, Wild, Panthers, Bluejackets, Predators, Flyers.  5 of those I've never seen in the finals. Then are teams that have existed before me that have only won 1 cup in my life, Blues, Capitals, Rangers, Stars, Whalers/Hurricanes, Bruins.  Add in the Rangers have only won one cup in both mine and my dad's life despite never struggling to attract top free agents.  Any team that has had success has had periods of being dreadful. Wings had a 40 year drought, Blackhawks 39 years, Kings 40+, Penguins probably wouldn't even exist if not for a couple generational players.  This is sports, as bad as you think you have it there are plenty of fans just as depressed as you are.

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, MP5029 said:

And how you do that is NOT by trading away basically 3-4 first round picks (in amy combo of actual picks, players or prospects)

 

Feaster tried to trade 3 first round picks to draft Mackinnon and got rejected.  Now, Eichel is a step below Mackinnon, sure, but we were offering a 6th overall for Mackinnon and COL still said no.  Our 4 first round picks could be 4 picks in the teens or 20s.

 

There really is just two ways (maybe a third way...),

1. Tank for one.

2. Trade 4 first round picks for one.

3. Draft outside the top 3 picks and fluke out.

 

We know this organization is not tanking for one.  And are already trying to fluke out for one but it hasn't come yet.  So, there's really only 1 way to go.

[jjgallow]

43 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Feaster tried to trade 3 first round picks to draft Mackinnon and got rejected.  Now, Eichel is a step below Mackinnon, sure, but we were offering a 6th overall for Mackinnon and COL still said no.  Our 4 first round picks could be 4 picks in the teens or 20s.

 

There really is just two ways (maybe a third way...),

1. Tank for one.

2. Trade 4 first round picks for one.

3. Draft outside the top 3 picks and fluke out.

 

We know this organization is not tanking for one.  And are already trying to fluke out for one but it hasn't come yet.  So, there's really only 1 way to go.

 

I guess I see getting 1st overall as a nice-to-have in a rebuild, but not a requirement.

 

Tampa never had a first overall, St Louis didn't, Los Angeles didn't, Chicago didn't, Boston didn't, they all had successful rebuilds and won cups at Least once.

 

So does it help?  Pittsburgh and Washington say yes, but it's not necessary.

 

The Problem with first overall is you have to sink Sooo low in every way in your organisation, the recovery is daunting.  Better to have a few seasons in the top 8 until you win the lotto.

 

Anyway, Eichel's not a first overall.   And in a redraft, I still don't think he'd be even without McDavid.   Too much Marner, too much Kyle Connor, too much Aho.  He's somewhere in the top 5, that's all we know even now.  LIkewise, we all see shane Wright and Bedard as the prize, but we don't even know if they are the top players in those drafts.  Some think it is Michkov.  I would tend to agree, and yet other see other dark horses emerging.   

 

 

I like to think of it more in terms of what I think will happen right now, because the notion that the Flames actually have a plan and will follow through and success with said non-existent plan, imho is not realistic.     Reality will happen to the Flames and reality says they got some lotto picks coming.    I am less concerned with the likelihood of the rebuild happening at this point and more concerned with hot the Flames conduct themselves in it.   Because like most here, I don't want it to go on for a decade.

 

[MP5029]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Feaster tried to trade 3 first round picks to draft Mackinnon and got rejected.  Now, Eichel is a step below Mackinnon, sure, but we were offering a 6th overall for Mackinnon and COL still said no.  Our 4 first round picks could be 4 picks in the teens or 20s.

 

There really is just two ways (maybe a third way...),

1. Tank for one.

2. Trade 4 first round picks for one.

3. Draft outside the top 3 picks and fluke out.

 

We know this organization is not tanking for one.  And are already trying to fluke out for one but it hasn't come yet.  So, there's really only 1 way to go.

Yeah but you forgot the part to my point…2022 and 2023 drafts are Uber deep and Uber talented…your better off taking your chances on 4x 1st rounders in theses drafts than trading for eichel, who is not a step defund McKinnon, he’s actually behind Monahan’s numbers and being paid 10 mil…at that price I’d much rather trade 4x1st to col for McKinnon…and if they were for this draft or 2023 they would do it in a heart beat cause they’d be getting so much more than just McKinnon out of that deal…

 

hence the smart play is to Wait till TDL trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund and whoever else’s (except maybe Tachuck, Anderson, Valimaki and Lindholm, need some vet and Already developed Or nearly developed D) 

 

you will land at least 1x McKinnon, maybe 2x Monahan’s and Backlund out of this and or next draft, worsts case..which is a huge improvement over where we are now and a far cry better than taking on an injured 10mil Eichel 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I guess I see getting 1st overall as a nice-to-have in a rebuild, but not a requirement.

 

Tampa never had a first overall, St Louis didn't, Los Angeles didn't, Chicago didn't, Boston didn't, they all had successful rebuilds and won cups at Least once.

 

So does it help?  Pittsburgh and Washington say yes, but it's not necessary.

 

The Problem with first overall is you have to sink Sooo low in every way in your organisation, the recovery is daunting.  Better to have a few seasons in the top 8 until you win the lotto.

 

Anyway, Eichel's not a first overall.   And in a redraft, I still don't think he'd be even without McDavid.   Too much Marner, too much Kyle Connor, too much Aho.  He's somewhere in the top 5, that's all we know even now.  LIkewise, we all see shane Wright and Bedard as the prize, but we don't even know if they are the top players in those drafts.  Some think it is Michkov.  I would tend to agree, and yet other see other dark horses emerging.   

 

 

I like to think of it more in terms of what I think will happen right now, because the notion that the Flames actually have a plan and will follow through and success with said non-existent plan, imho is not realistic.     Reality will happen to the Flames and reality says they got some lotto picks coming.    I am less concerned with the likelihood of the rebuild happening at this point and more concerned with hot the Flames conduct themselves in it.   Because like most here, I don't want it to go on for a decade.

 

TBay both Lecavaier and Stamkos 1st oa. He dman 2oa.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

Tampa never had a first overall, St Louis didn't, Los Angeles didn't, Chicago didn't, Boston didn't, they all had successful rebuilds and won cups at Least once.

 

 

BOS - Joe Thorton (1st overall)

CHI - Patrick Kane (1st overall)

SLT - Eric Johnson (1st overall)

TBL - see list from Conundrumed

 

Your point being 1st overall doesn't guarantee a cup, or at least that's the argument today.

Try not to ignore the facts though. 

[jjgallow]

44 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

TBay both Lecavaier and Stamkos 1st oa. He dman 2oa.

 

Forgot about those, yes I suppose tanking is a thing

[jjgallow]

32 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

BOS - Joe Thorton (1st overall)

CHI - Patrick Kane (1st overall)

SLT - Eric Johnson (1st overall)

TBL - see list from Conundrumed

 

Your point being 1st overall doesn't guarantee a cup, or at least that's the argument today.

Try not to ignore the facts though. 

 

Yeah these facts are pretty damning towards tanking though lol.

 

It helps big-time and my point was more the context but on 2nd thought it really would we best if we just imploded.

Sorry

Lol 

 

Eichel will absolutely not get us there.

And the idea that we do Eichel because more likely than implosion,  I feel the opposite is true

 

[Horsman1]

9 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I can be pretty negative but I would never encourage anyone to jump ship, I actually think we will turn the corner sooner than later here because of necessity.

 

One you get into that bottom 5 there is no pretending things are okay.     Truthfully I would be hard on most teams, just not all.

 

Flames will always be my NHL team.    But how much time I spend watching junior, or the AHL, or better yet actually getting out on the ice myself is another matter.   It's not like we can just start cheering for Edmonton lol, I'm okay for cheering for an underdog but I can't go that far.

flames were only 4 wins away from finishing atop the division last year.. We don't need a rebuild.. we need a shrink~~~~ that's four winnable games against Ottawa

 

[The_People1]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I guess I see getting 1st overall as a nice-to-have in a rebuild, but not a requirement.

 

Tampa never had a first overall, St Louis didn't, Los Angeles didn't, Chicago didn't, Boston didn't, they all had successful rebuilds and won cups at Least once.

 

So does it help?  Pittsburgh and Washington say yes, but it's not necessary.

 

The Problem with first overall is you have to sink Sooo low in every way in your organisation, the recovery is daunting.  Better to have a few seasons in the top 8 until you win the lotto.

 

Anyway, Eichel's not a first overall.   And in a redraft, I still don't think he'd be even without McDavid.   Too much Marner, too much Kyle Connor, too much Aho.  He's somewhere in the top 5, that's all we know even now.  LIkewise, we all see shane Wright and Bedard as the prize, but we don't even know if they are the top players in those drafts.  Some think it is Michkov.  I would tend to agree, and yet other see other dark horses emerging.   

 

 

I like to think of it more in terms of what I think will happen right now, because the notion that the Flames actually have a plan and will follow through and success with said non-existent plan, imho is not realistic.     Reality will happen to the Flames and reality says they got some lotto picks coming.    I am less concerned with the likelihood of the rebuild happening at this point and more concerned with hot the Flames conduct themselves in it.   Because like most here, I don't want it to go on for a decade.

 

 

 

If my quick glance is correct, then no top 2 pick has won the Cup since 2010 (Tyler Seguin),

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/index.html

 

But what's interesting is that every team that has won the Cup recently, except the Blues, drafted in the top 2.

 

The salary cap has certainly made an impact.  My guess is we will be entering an era where drafting in the top 2 will not matter (unless COL, EDM, FLA, TOR, etc) win the Cup next.  But let's see.  It would be nice to see more Blues-type teams win the Cup... basically refusing to tank.  I know the Blues drafted #1 in 2006 but man, that's another era.  Can't really count that.

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Yeah but you forgot the part to my point…2022 and 2023 drafts are Uber deep and Uber talented…your better off taking your chances on 4x 1st rounders in theses drafts than trading for eichel, who is not a step defund McKinnon, he’s actually behind Monahan’s numbers and being paid 10 mil…at that price I’d much rather trade 4x1st to col for McKinnon…and if they were for this draft or 2023 they would do it in a heart beat cause they’d be getting so much more than just McKinnon out of that deal…

 

hence the smart play is to Wait till TDL trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund and whoever else’s (except maybe Tachuck, Anderson, Valimaki and Lindholm, need some vet and Already developed Or nearly developed D) 

 

you will land at least 1x McKinnon, maybe 2x Monahan’s and Backlund out of this and or next draft, worsts case..which is a huge improvement over where we are now and a far cry better than taking on an injured 10mil Eichel 

 

I don't know man.  I would probably trade 4 first rounders in 2022/23 for Shane Wright and/or Conor Bedard.  The "Next Ones".  

[conundrumed]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I don't know man.  I would probably trade 4 first rounders in 2022/23 for Shane Wright and/or Conor Bedard.  The "Next Ones".  

Which one will be Nolan Patrick?

I'm sure I could add Schmaltz and Robert Thomas for a lot cheaper, and suddenly we're very deep down the middle. I want a team that is very hard to play against, not the Oilers/Devils. They have some elite talent, it doesn't matter.

[nevermissashift]

16 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Yeah but you forgot the part to my point…2022 and 2023 drafts are Uber deep and Uber talented…your better off taking your chances on 4x 1st rounders in theses drafts than trading for eichel, who is not a step defund McKinnon, he’s actually behind Monahan’s numbers and being paid 10 mil…at that price I’d much rather trade 4x1st to col for McKinnon…and if they were for this draft or 2023 they would do it in a heart beat cause they’d be getting so much more than just McKinnon out of that deal…

 

hence the smart play is to Wait till TDL trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund and whoever else’s (except maybe Tachuck, Anderson, Valimaki and Lindholm, need some vet and Already developed Or nearly developed D) 

 

you will land at least 1x McKinnon, maybe 2x Monahan’s and Backlund out of this and or next draft, worsts case..which is a huge improvement over where we are now and a far cry better than taking on an injured 10mil Eichel 

Do it! Whoops for a second there I thought You Could do it🐶. 

I like more than one of the rebuild or improve ideas you guys have. I would like to see 'something of note' (like someone worded it) get done this season. I wish one of you guys had Treliving's authority, so we all could see some substantial move/s. It's nice to have some fresh optimism to start the season with. 

 

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Which one will be Nolan Patrick?

I'm sure I could add Schmaltz and Robert Thomas for a lot cheaper, and suddenly we're very deep down the middle. I want a team that is very hard to play against, not the Oilers/Devils. They have some elite talent, it doesn't matter.

 

Shane Wright is pretty strong defensively along with, well, having upside similar or better to Nathan Mackinnon.   I would say better.

 

IMHO we could win the lotto and get him.   Even I don't think we'll finish dead last although we could be there for the Bedard draft.

 

https://lastwordonsports.com/hockey/2021/08/09/early-2022-nhl-draft-rankings/

 

Now taking things back on topic and to the point of being a complete team, you've got Simon Nemic as the top D in the draft and a RHS.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/589605/simon-nemec

 

A lot will change in the next year but as thing stand now, he's ranked right around where I see us picking.

 

[robrob74]

13 hours ago, Horsman1 said:

flames were only 4 wins away from finishing atop the division last year.. We don't need a rebuild.. we need a shrink~~~~ that's four winnable games against Ottawa

 

 

But they also ended a season playing the Canucks who have already given up on their season, and thus won some meaningless games. If the Canucks didn't catch Covid, then how are those games that they had to postpone played if they were played on their original dates? And if the Canucks try in the last few games, are we still only 4 wins away, or is it 5+?  For me, this is why I don't look at the standings when the last bunch of games are meaningless and so it's easier to just come to play. They have to get up for the meaningful games, which this team has failed to do 3 seasons in a row, albeit a couple of odd shortened ones. 

[The_People1]

8 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Which one will be Nolan Patrick?

I'm sure I could add Schmaltz and Robert Thomas for a lot cheaper, and suddenly we're very deep down the middle. I want a team that is very hard to play against, not the Oilers/Devils. They have some elite talent, it doesn't matter.

 

Let's be the next Pittsburgh Penguins.

[Horsman1]

10 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

But they also ended a season playing the Canucks who have already given up on their season, and thus won some meaningless games. If the Canucks didn't catch Covid, then how are those games that they had to postpone played if they were played on their original dates? And if the Canucks try in the last few games, are we still only 4 wins away, or is it 5+?  For me, this is why I don't look at the standings when the last bunch of games are meaningless and so it's easier to just come to play. They have to get up for the meaningful games, which this team has failed to do 3 seasons in a row, albeit a couple of odd shortened ones. 

thats a lot of if s and buts.. Flames were 4 wins away from top of the division-- fact.. Here's one for you.. If playoffs were determined by winning percentage overall instead  of  wins and losses, would vancouver have stayed tuned in??guess we;ll never know

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, Horsman1 said:

thats a lot of if s and buts.. Flames were 4 wins away from top of the division-- fact.. Here's one for you.. If playoffs were determined by winning percentage overall instead  of  wins and losses, would vancouver have stayed tuned in??guess we;ll never know

 

 

good on you for being optimistic. It’s a fact the Flames try as hard as possible when they’re out of it though. They always win a few at the end when other teams have given up.

 

and you said earlier, if they just beat Ottawa. There’s a fact in there, they didn’t win a lot of games against them. So you can’t say if, especially if you’re going to call me out on ifs…

[conundrumed]

14 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Let's be the next Pittsburgh Penguins.

Or Edmonton? Or Buffalo? Or NJ? Or Ottawa?

You know as well as anyone that the tank to eventually succeed model is dicey at best. You get the best player for 3 yrs on an ELC, there's your window. Then he's going to need 12-15% of your cap. Now your window is closing. McDavid and Draisaitl easily compare to Crosby and Malkin. But it doesn't matter.

Scrapping everything is not a good plan. I know many want to see it, but in reality, it's a really piss-poor tactic.

Even Ovi didn't put the team on his back. It's easily argued Kuznetzov did just as much. A 26th oa.

Now if we can get over the silly mindset of "bpa-unless he's Russian", that could help a lot. Point's a 3rd rounder, Kucherov's a 2nd rder, Datsyuk was a 6th along with Markov in the same draft. Jamie Benn's a 5th rder. We can do this all day. Don't need to tank for a high pick to get a great player.

We picked Adam Fox...now we should just shoot pucks at his head...

[nevermissashift]

17 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Or Edmonton? Or Buffalo? Or NJ? Or Ottawa?

You know as well as anyone that the tank to eventually succeed model is dicey at best. You get the best player for 3 yrs on an ELC, there's your window. Then he's going to need 12-15% of your cap. Now your window is closing. McDavid and Draisaitl easily compare to Crosby and Malkin. But it doesn't matter.

Scrapping everything is not a good plan. I know many want to see it, but in reality, it's a really piss-poor tactic.

Even Ovi didn't put the team on his back. It's easily argued Kuznetzov did just as much. A 26th oa.

Now if we can get over the silly mindset of "bpa-unless he's Russian", that could help a lot. Point's a 3rd rounder, Kucherov's a 2nd rder, Datsyuk was a 6th along with Markov in the same draft. Jamie Benn's a 5th rder. We can do this all day. Don't need to tank for a high pick to get a great player.

We picked Adam Fox...now we should just shoot pucks at his head...

conundrumed: LOL, Who is Adam Fox? What is ELC? What is Uber?

 

Those are the kind of stats we need to be reminded of = lousy odds. 

... and what a BORING 2 to 5 year GAMBLE with no team on the ice, and knowing they are throwing games. WHAT A DRAG! Not worth my time even watching, not to mention a sicK bit of sportsmanship. You think the org doesn't know that?! You think the org would survive in Calg? 

FLAMES TANK, NO TANKS!  

 

PS... and 1 player does not a team make (Connor, still yet to prove). 

 

 

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Or Edmonton? Or Buffalo? Or NJ? Or Ottawa?

You know as well as anyone that the tank to eventually succeed model is dicey at best. You get the best player for 3 yrs on an ELC, there's your window. Then he's going to need 12-15% of your cap. Now your window is closing. McDavid and Draisaitl easily compare to Crosby and Malkin. But it doesn't matter.

Scrapping everything is not a good plan. I know many want to see it, but in reality, it's a really piss-poor tactic.

Even Ovi didn't put the team on his back. It's easily argued Kuznetzov did just as much. A 26th oa.

Now if we can get over the silly mindset of "bpa-unless he's Russian", that could help a lot. Point's a 3rd rounder, Kucherov's a 2nd rder, Datsyuk was a 6th along with Markov in the same draft. Jamie Benn's a 5th rder. We can do this all day. Don't need to tank for a high pick to get a great player.

We picked Adam Fox...now we should just shoot pucks at his head...

 

I think as fans, we like to put simple explanations forward to keep things easy.  "You need to have a first overall to win the cup" or "You need X number of ELCs" or "You need X caliber player as X,Y, and Z positions".  I have done it.  You have done it.  Its how we set up context for an argument or discussion. But the reality is, you need the best players and the best team to win and there isn't a specific recipe to achieving that.    

 

That said, we all know that the best place to get the best players is the draft.  The best way to get the best players in the draft is to draft higher and more often.  And the best way to get the highest and most picks is to rebuild.  I agree with you that the top SC teams had a lot of great players to complement the other great players they got in top spots of the drafts.  But those teams still had the great players they got in the top spots of the draft.    

 

The issue with the Flames is we don't have the strong base the consistently great teams do.  We don't have the top players at any position, and the two we have that can occasionally be in the conversation are at the least important position (LW).  Could we find those players outside of a top 3 draft pick?  Possibly.  Its why people like me are advocating for Eichel.  But its a lot harder. 

 

Some fans look at it like this.  Are we good enough to be legitimate SC contenders with the base we have?  No, then lets rebuild.  Its that simple, and it leads to a lot of the arguments describe at the paragraph "The only way too ..." or "If we don't then terrible thing X,Y will occur".  

 

The owners don't look at it like that though. Playoffs and big name players is where you make your money.  When you don't have those two things, then you rebuild to get those two things, but certainly not before.  For coaches and GMs, if you can make the playoffs you might be the next 04 Flames, 06 Oilers, 20 Canadians, or even better 19 Blues.  The GM and coaches aren't going to have a job through a rebuild.  

[conundrumed]

Moved out of the D thread...

[conundrumed]

moved

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Or Edmonton? Or Buffalo? Or NJ? Or Ottawa?

You know as well as anyone that the tank to eventually succeed model is dicey at best. You get the best player for 3 yrs on an ELC, there's your window. Then he's going to need 12-15% of your cap. Now your window is closing. McDavid and Draisaitl easily compare to Crosby and Malkin. But it doesn't matter.

Scrapping everything is not a good plan. I know many want to see it, but in reality, it's a really piss-poor tactic.

Even Ovi didn't put the team on his back. It's easily argued Kuznetzov did just as much. A 26th oa.

Now if we can get over the silly mindset of "bpa-unless he's Russian", that could help a lot. Point's a 3rd rounder, Kucherov's a 2nd rder, Datsyuk was a 6th along with Markov in the same draft. Jamie Benn's a 5th rder. We can do this all day. Don't need to tank for a high pick to get a great player.

We picked Adam Fox...now we should just shoot pucks at his head...

 

The window is not the ELC of the elite players. Elite players will elite and worth every penny. Instead, it's the pre-UFA status of the Blake Colemans, Byfugliens, McKnabbs, etc.  You pay your stars and then draft well to fill out the bottom 6 and lower pair D.  Your window is before your stud supporting cast prices you out.

 

If you don't have your base/core of elites, then everything is all for not.  The Flames draft stud supporting cast players.  We don't have that game breaking elite Center... And now I would argue we don't have that stud elite D too so getting Eichel alone isn't enough... It's just a start.