Brad Treliving, Advanced Stats, and Old School Thinking

[kehatch]

Advanced Statistics

For those that don't follow the movement advanced stats attempt to quantify shot attempt data to determine possession.  

• Possession stats are the ratio of offensive opportunities you get versus the ones you give up.  
• Context data give us more information about a player.  For example, Player X scores 20 goals while player Y scores 15.  Using traditional metrics player X is better.  But player X was playing in offensive situations against the other teams third and fourth lines while player Y was playing in defensive situations attempting to shut down the other teams top lines.    
• People are finding unique ways to use the data.  For example, teams are measuring a zone entries.  How many times is a player dumping the puck in versus carrying the puck in and what is the success rate in keeping possession on entry. 

What do Advanced Stats Tell Us

A lot.  They give us more insight into how effective a player is.  They tell us that carrying the puck in is usually more effective then dumping it in.  They show us why players like Brodie and Backlund are so important because they maintain positive possession numbers while faced with the other teams top players.  Usually the data complements traditional thinking.  But occasionally they conflict.  Here are two examples:

• The role of the enforcer: The writing was already on the wall on the enforcers ability to enforce.  Instigator penalties.  Penalties for removing your helmet.  Requirements to wear visors for players entering the league.  Etc.  They can't do anything to the other team unless the other team lets them.  But the stats are showing us just how large of a liability the enforcer is while on the ice.  Players like McGrattan give up way more opportunities then they get.  That's why even teams like Philly that traditionally dress enforcers aren't. 
• The role of the defensive d-man: Possession numbers show that the aggregate is what is important.  Being really good in your own zone (or really good in the offensive zone) doesn't make you a good player if you can't move the puck in the right direction and contribute in the other zone.  Its about generating more chances then the other team.  A defensive d-man usually gives up a lot more chances then they get because they can't get the puck out and they can't generate chances at the other end when they get there.  

Brad Treliving's and the Flames

Trelivings Moves as GM:

• FA: Raymond 3y/9.45M
• FA: Hiller 2y/9M
• FA: Engelland 3y/8.75M
• FA: Setoguchi 1y/0.75M
• FA: Potter 1y/0.7M
• FA: Diaz 1y/0.7M
• T: 3-round pick (CGY) for (CHI) Bollig

It is a little early to judge Treliving.  He has been the boss for one summer and three games.  But there are a few flags that are worth monitoring

• He is sticking with the enforcers.  While most teams aren't playing their heavy weights Trelving has McGrattan on the active roster.  He also has Engelland and Bollig on the ice at the same time.  These guys are getting MURDERED using possession metrics despite playing against the other teams bottom lines.  Worse, they are taking down players like Russell and Stajan that traditionally have strong possession numbers.  
• He is sticking with the defensive d-men.  Smid was already on the team when he got here.  But he went out and overpaid for Engelland on a 3-year contract.  Not only was the contract way to much for that player, but Engelland is that traditional d-man who spends too much time in the d-zone and can't contribute in the opposing zone.  
• The Flames are one of the last teams to the party.  Most other teams have made major investments into analytic's.  Most teams have hired people well versed in the advanced stats movement.  Not the Flames.   

The Flames thinking appears a bit dated (sometimes downright archaic).  I will be watching this closely to see if the Flames learn to be innovative and modernize their thinking.  Considering they are building a team from the ground up I think it is important they are building it the right way.  

[AlbertaBoy12]

Personally I dont think Engelland has played any worse then Wideman, actually I think him and Russel have been a pretty solid pairing.

While bollig hasent been a stand out, im assuming Brad was hoping that he would turn into a solid 4th liner, and I think jones would be better on the 4th line the McGratten at this point but hes a fan favorite so I doubt that will happen. Just my 2 cents.

[phoenix66]

Analytics are great they give us another tool, but we need to be wary of going "all in". The poster child for analytics, the Oakland Athletics, have yet to win a championship.

Instead of using them to strictly rate the enforcers, what are the stats for the other players with them on the bench? Its not coincidence that the seasons of both the canucks and flames hit a turning point the night of the big brawl..ours went up, the canucks tanked. You cant do analysis on the mental part of the game. The rangers lost to the kings in the end because they got pushed around by the Kings.

Im all for replacing typical goons with fighters that can play, replacing westgarth with Engelland and/or Bollig is a big step up.But until you get me a skilled player who nobody wants to mess with, Grats is irreplaceable.

As long as we have Matt Cooks running around, we need them. Even the greatest skill, finesse team in history employed Dave Semenko and Marty McSorley for a reason

I do agree with the defense pairings, it makes more sense to pair offense with defense, but im thinking it will take hartley a while longer to solidify the pairings, but that's on hartley not treliving.

If you compare the list of players in vs players out its pretty much a list if it were a big trade we'd say we won it hands down. So far id say we have upgraded the talent core under treliving.

[travel_dude]

Bollig in, Westgarth out - upgrade, but results have not shown much to prove this.

Engelland in, Shane O'Brien out - upgrade, but so far hasn't done a lot to prove it.

The only positive thing I have seen so far is willingness to scratch McGrattan and Wideman. Results - a win. If they take an honest look at games films, they will see how they drive the play in the wrong direction. Maybe Hartley will ask BT to do something about it.

[stubblejumper1]

I haven't spent much time learning about advanced stats, but I find them very interesting.

Oakland has no money, but the fact that they are competitive on a shoe string budget says something.

Regarding the Matt Cooks of the world, McGrattan rarely, if ever, gets the chance to dole out justice. Cook-type players refuse to drop the gloves, making enforcers less useful. Alex Burrows is quoted as saying "I am no effective if I fight." The way to deal with "agitators" is to return the cheap shot, or to go after the other team's star players.

Analytics are great they give us another tool, but we need to be wary of going "all in". The poster child for analytics, the Oakland Athletics, have yet to win a championship.

Instead of using them to strictly rate the enforcers, what are the stats for the other players with them on the bench? Its not coincidence that the seasons of both the canucks and flames hit a turning point the night of the big brawl..ours went up, the canucks tanked. You cant do analysis on the mental part of the game. The rangers lost to the kings in the end because they got pushed around by the Kings.

Im all for replacing typical goons with fighters that can play, replacing westgarth with Engelland and/or Bollig is a big step up.But until you get me a skilled player who nobody wants to mess with, Grats is irreplaceable.

As long as we have Matt Cooks running around, we need them. Even the greatest skill, finesse team in history employed Dave Semenko and Marty McSorley for a reason

I do agree with the defense pairings, it makes more sense to pair offense with defense, but im thinking it will take hartley a while longer to solidify the pairings, but that's on hartley not treliving.

If you compare the list of players in vs players out its pretty much a list if it were a big trade we'd say we won it hands down. So far id say we have upgraded the talent core under treliving.

[Wreckening]

I haven't spent much time learning about advanced stats, but I find them very interesting.

Oakland has no money, but the fact that they are competitive on a shoe string budget says something.

Regarding the Matt Cooks of the world, McGrattan rarely, if ever, gets the chance to dole out justice. Cook-type players refuse to drop the gloves, making enforcers less useful. Alex Burrows is quoted as saying "I am no effective if I fight." The way to deal with "agitators" is to return the cheap shot, or to go after the other team's star players.

 

I have to disagree. First of all its incumbent upon the refs to start calling a better game. Secondly, it always seems to me that the player who retaliates is the one who gets the penalty.....refer to my first reason for clarity......Besides I'm not down with this whole eye for an eye concept when it comes to dealing with this stuff. It generally works against you in the long run. Your team's focus should always be on how to win the game, not how you're going to get even in a fight so to speak.

[stubblejumper1]

I completely agree. I should have started by saying that the best way to deal with clowns like Cook is to ignore them.

If you feel the need to do your own policing, you can't fight someone whi refuses to engage. You can't run away from a cheap shot.

I have to disagree. First of all its incumbent upon the refs to start calling a better game. Secondly, it always seems to me that the player who retaliates is the one who gets the penalty.....refer to my first reason for clarity......Besides I'm not down with this whole eye for an eye concept when it comes to dealing with this stuff. It generally works against you in the long run. Your team's focus should always be on how to win the game, not how you're going to get even in a fight so to speak.

[kehatch]

I completely agree. I should have started by saying that the best way to deal with clowns like Cook is to ignore them.

If you feel the need to do your own policing, you can't fight someone whi refuses to engage. You can't run away from a cheap shot.

I agree with all of that. This idea that having McGrattan on your team protects you from the Cookes of the world is wrong.

McGrattan isn't on the ice when your stars are on the ice. He can't target a player after the fact without penalizing the team. Once upon a time enforcers could enforce. Now they can't.

So the question is, why play them? The answer is, most teams don't anymore.

[MAC331]

Right now they are in transition and need some size to protect a young and smaller team this year. Next year could be totally different with the progression of some players and the trading of others. Worth watching the movement as you say.

Advanced Statistics

For those that don't follow the movement advanced stats attempt to quantify shot attempt data to determine possession.  

• Possession stats are the ratio of offensive opportunities you get versus the ones you give up.  
• Context data give us more information about a player.  For example, Player X scores 20 goals while player Y scores 15.  Using traditional metrics player X is better.  But player X was playing in offensive situations against the other teams third and fourth lines while player Y was playing in defensive situations attempting to shut down the other teams top lines.    
• People are finding unique ways to use the data.  For example, teams are measuring a zone entries.  How many times is a player dumping the puck in versus carrying the puck in and what is the success rate in keeping possession on entry. 

What do Advanced Stats Tell Us

A lot.  They give us more insight into how effective a player is.  They tell us that carrying the puck in is usually more effective then dumping it in.  They show us why players like Brodie and Backlund are so important because they maintain positive possession numbers while faced with the other teams top players.  Usually the data complements traditional thinking.  But occasionally they conflict.  Here are two examples:

• The role of the enforcer: The writing was already on the wall on the enforcers ability to enforce.  Instigator penalties.  Penalties for removing your helmet.  Requirements to wear visors for players entering the league.  Etc.  They can't do anything to the other team unless the other team lets them.  But the stats are showing us just how large of a liability the enforcer is while on the ice.  Players like McGrattan give up way more opportunities then they get.  That's why even teams like Philly that traditionally dress enforcers aren't. 
• The role of the defensive d-man: Possession numbers show that the aggregate is what is important.  Being really good in your own zone (or really good in the offensive zone) doesn't make you a good player if you can't move the puck in the right direction and contribute in the other zone.  Its about generating more chances then the other team.  A defensive d-man usually gives up a lot more chances then they get because they can't get the puck out and they can't generate chances at the other end when they get there.  

Brad Treliving's and the Flames

Trelivings Moves as GM:

• FA: Raymond 3y/9.45M
• FA: Hiller 2y/9M
• FA: Engelland 3y/8.75M
• FA: Setoguchi 1y/0.75M
• FA: Potter 1y/0.7M
• FA: Diaz 1y/0.7M
• T: 3-round pick (CGY) for (CHI) Bollig

It is a little early to judge Treliving.  He has been the boss for one summer and three games.  But there are a few flags that are worth monitoring

• He is sticking with the enforcers.  While most teams aren't playing their heavy weights Trelving has McGrattan on the active roster.  He also has Engelland and Bollig on the ice at the same time.  These guys are getting MURDERED using possession metrics despite playing against the other teams bottom lines.  Worse, they are taking down players like Russell and Stajan that traditionally have strong possession numbers.  
• He is sticking with the defensive d-men.  Smid was already on the team when he got here.  But he went out and overpaid for Engelland on a 3-year contract.  Not only was the contract way to much for that player, but Engelland is that traditional d-man who spends too much time in the d-zone and can't contribute in the opposing zone.  
• The Flames are one of the last teams to the party.  Most other teams have made major investments into analytic's.  Most teams have hired people well versed in the advanced stats movement.  Not the Flames.   

The Flames thinking appears a bit dated (sometimes downright archaic).  I will be watching this closely to see if the Flames learn to be innovative and modernize their thinking.  Considering they are building a team from the ground up I think it is important they are building it the right way.  

[tmac70]

Analytic s, IMPO, information gathered in areas that can advance improvement is great. All analytic's do is enlighten area's of weakness that may not be as transparent as other areas. 

 

Enforcer's. Clark Gillies, Mark Messier, Chris Pronger, Jim Pepelinski, Gary Roberts, Joel Ottto, Eric Lindros, Milan Lucic, Jerome Iginla, Chara, Dustin Brown, David Backes, Scott Stevens ETC. All are leaders with offensive upside  but could stand up for team mates if required.  I agree the trend has gotten away from the enforcers but really has it? We are just seeing a re positioning of offensive/aggressive player coming back. Skilled guys who can enforce are a huge assets to any club, Ferland is a huge asset to this club, offensive upside but can also protect.

 

Puck Possession:  Do you need stats to tell us that " he who controls the puck, controls the game" but it can show us players that are weak in that area. Chi, San Jose, ANA, LA, BOS, Blues  are puck possession teams, not uncommon to see them at the top of the league.  

 

 

You can get so lost in the numbers it is ridiculous. I am not saying Analytic s are useless, However it isn't the do all be all of a championship team. It does however give you a different documentation to view rather than just observe. 

[cccsberg]

I have to disagree. First of all its incumbent upon the refs to start calling a better game. Secondly, it always seems to me that the player who retaliates is the one who gets the penalty.....refer to my first reason for clarity......Besides I'm not down with this whole eye for an eye concept when it comes to dealing with this stuff. It generally works against you in the long run. Your team's focus should always be on how to win the game, not how you're going to get even in a fight so to speak.

Completely disagree, ignoring a bully only encourages them to continue. You've got to stand up to them. If they refuse go after their teammates, I think they'll get the point.

[phoenix66]

I agree with all of that. This idea that having McGrattan on your team protects you from the Cookes of the world is wrong.

McGrattan isn't on the ice when your stars are on the ice. He can't target a player after the fact without penalizing the team. Once upon a time enforcers could enforce. Now they can't.

So the question is, why play them? The answer is, most teams don't anymore.

 

 

totally disagree.. why play them ? because it makes your smaller players bigger .. backlund isnt afraid to jump someone in defence of a teammate , knowing somebody has his back.. the team plays with more confidence.

second, who says the retribution has to happen right away ?.. at some point during that game, or even the next meeting , you can get Mcgrattan on the ice with any player you want.. and the player knows it ..

dd people try that stuff with Gretzky?.. nope.. and thats why .. Players Like Sid, (as much as he whines like a little girl )  get cheap shotted constantly , because they dont have this kind of player

 

like i said earlier, if you can give me a heavyweight that can take on and consistently beat any heavyweight but also is a ore skilled player , then im all for it

[kehatch]

Analytic s, IMPO, information gathered in areas that can advance improvement is great. All analytic's do is enlighten area's of weakness that may not be as transparent as other areas. 

 

Enforcer's. Clark Gillies, Mark Messier, Chris Pronger, Jim Pepelinski, Gary Roberts, Joel Ottto, Eric Lindros, Milan Lucic, Jerome Iginla, Chara, Dustin Brown, David Backes, Scott Stevens ETC. All are leaders with offensive upside  but could stand up for team mates if required.  I agree the trend has gotten away from the enforcers but really has it? We are just seeing a re positioning of offensive/aggressive player coming back. Skilled guys who can enforce are a huge assets to any club, Ferland is a huge asset to this club, offensive upside but can also protect.

 

Puck Possession:  Do you need stats to tell us that " he who controls the puck, controls the game" but it can show us players that are weak in that area. Chi, San Jose, ANA, LA, BOS, Blues  are puck possession teams, not uncommon to see them at the top of the league.  

 

 

You can get so lost in the numbers it is ridiculous. I am not saying Analytic s are useless, However it isn't the do all be all of a championship team. It does however give you a different documentation to view rather than just observe. 

 

Of course we know that possession is an important measurement in success.  Just like shot attempts, scoring attempts, goals, etc are important.  Advanced stats just provides a measurement to determine how effective the players are at achieving that.  

 

I agree that this isn't baseball and educated observation will always be a component of hockey evaluation (it is in baseball as well).  But the metrics do provide an objective measurement to support that observation.  

 

totally disagree.. why play them ? because it makes your smaller players bigger .. backlund isnt afraid to jump someone in defence of a teammate , knowing somebody has his back.. the team plays with more confidence.

second, who says the retribution has to happen right away ?.. at some point during that game, or even the next meeting , you can get Mcgrattan on the ice with any player you want.. and the player knows it ..

dd people try that stuff with Gretzky?.. nope.. and thats why .. Players Like Sid, (as much as he whines like a little girl )  get cheap shotted constantly , because they dont have this kind of player

 

like i said earlier, if you can give me a heavyweight that can take on and consistently beat any heavyweight but also is a ore skilled player , then im all for it

 

Well we disagree then.  I have seen zero evidence that skill players perform better on teams with enforcers then they do on teams without enforcers.  I have seen plenty of evidence that traditional enforcement lines perform poorly and are a liability to the team.  I have also seen very few examples of enforcers preventing dirty play or avenging a dirty play.  I have seen them get penalized trying.  Look no further then both preseason games against Winnipeg for examples.  

 

Being a good fighter isn't a liability.  Not being a very good hockey player is.  Players like McGrattan aren't good NHL hockey players. Smart teams aren't sending out a goon squad to go up against the McGrattan line.  They are putting out skill players that can go after the white meat.  

 

Who is even left for McGrattan to fight?  Almost nobody is icing these guys.  Its a new world.  Hope the Flames are ready for it.  (Kinda the point of the post). 

[travel_dude]

Great debate on the virtues of dressing an enforcer. To be honest, we have 3 on the team right now. Does the team really need to dress all three? I am sorta OK with Engelland, because he plays as a shutdown D. He will more likely be on the ice when our stars are on, than McG or Bollig. He can lay a bit hit on someone in response or step in when needed. If it comes to it, he is 3rd man in and prevents MayRay or Hudler or Mony from getting a John Scott beating.

As far as McGrattan goes, nobody even tangles with him these days. Westgarth got in more fights the end of last season.

[Wrek]

"Enforcer's" in my eyes belong on the D, so they can stay out for a majority of time to protect certain lines.

and power forward types like Ferland, Iggy, Lucic ect

 

Not 4th line bruisers that only skate for 5 minutes.

[cross16]

I agree on Mcgratton and If it were up to me he'd be off mg team. But to credit Treliving a bit, He as already under contract when he got here. I don't think he acquired Bolig to have two enforcers, I think he got Bolig because Bolig is an enforcer who can actually play plus is in the age range you want. I think this is the danger of analytics yes the are important but you can't go all in and forget about important elements of building a team. There is no doubt in my mind having an enforcer helps out young players because if anyone takes liberties with them there is someone on the bench calling them out on it. If you don't believe enforces have an impact, did you not watch the Canuck gr last year?

Now where I do agree as it related to the enforcer if you can't have guys that just play 5 mins a game and can't play 5 on 5. But I would counter many teams in the NHL keep a guy that can fight bjy the key is that person has to play.

Another thing I would counter with the flames is they have been very reliant this year on the dump and chars and one touch passing designed to get certain players the puck and I think the results have not been good so far. That's goin to kill a lot of procession numbers but I don't think they necessarily a fair reflection on the player.

[kehatch]

First, last season was exceptional. Hartley knew how to get under Torterellas skin and he did it. That isn't a plug for enforcers.

Second, being able to fight isn't a bad thing. It's like being big. Having big players helps. But the Flames over 200 pounds are McGrattan, Bollig, Engelland, Colborne, Jones, Bouma, Smid, and Setoguchi. I like Colborne and Bouma. Maybe Smid. But that list includes many recent acquisitions of some of our worst players.

Advanced stats don't say being big or being able to fight is bad. Personally my favourite players are the power forwards that can hit, score, and occasionally drop the gloves. LA is one of the poster teams for advanced stats and they are really big.

But they do show us that bad hockey players are liabilities. That should be obvious. But we keep loading the roster with bad hockey players because they can fight or are big.

I think some teams are still over rating size and toughness and are willing to forgive a lot to get it. The Flames appear to be one of those teams.

[tmac70]

Enlightenment is all analytics are really. It just defines areas that are individual's need work on. Golf has gone on to use analytics in that it is strokes gained by players against the field.

 

I agree with those of need for an enforcer however that player needs to have the ability to play top 9 minutes. CHI, Blues, LA, ANA, all the top teams have players that have the ability to play that type of game but still not let their club get pushed around. Today's enforcers are really not enforcers but are offensive, physical guys that will fill the role if required. We have one that could possibly fill that void in Ferland, and a long shot in Hunter Smith in a few years. Current roster zero.

 

I believe BT is for analytics but BB is not. Managers selecting players based on analytics is scary, systems are different from team to team divisions are different. For example if you were to look at Bolig's # in CHI vs his # with the Flames, he would have a much higher rating solely based on the team he played on.

 

KEhatch makes the same point as I do. I am all for the large aggressive team but they have to able to play. When Calgary was a force in the 80's they were big, skilled and could fight. They had the exact players we speak of now.

[DirtyDeeds]

Enlightenment is all analytics are really. It just defines areas that are individual's need work on. Golf has gone on to use analytics in that it is strokes gained by players against the field.

 

I agree with those of need for an enforcer however that player needs to have the ability to play top 9 minutes. CHI, Blues, LA, ANA, all the top teams have players that have the ability to play that type of game but still not let their club get pushed around. Today's enforcers are really not enforcers but are offensive, physical guys that will fill the role if required. We have one that could possibly fill that void in Ferland, and a long shot in Hunter Smith in a few years. Current roster zero.

 

I believe BT is for analytics but BB is not. Managers selecting players based on analytics is scary, systems are different from team to team divisions are different. For example if you were to look at Bolig's # in CHI vs his # with the Flames, he would have a much higher rating solely based on the team he played on.

 

KEhatch makes the same point as I do. I am all for the large aggressive team but they have to able to play. When Calgary was a force in the 80's they were big, skilled and could fight. They had the exact players we speak of now.

Tim Hunter should not have been in the NHL when he first came to the Flames. he was a fighter only and was there to counter the Semenko's in the league. 

 

He improved into an adequate player over his time with the Flames.. If we lay kehatch's opinions on him, he never should have got the chance to play here and learn.

[kehatch]

Tim Hunter should not have been in the NHL when he first came to the Flames. he was a fighter only and was there to counter the Semenko's in the league.

He improved into an adequate player over his time with the Flames.. If we lay kehatch's opinions on him, he never should have got the chance to play here and learn.

It was a different world back then.

[tmac70]

Tim Hunter should not have been in the NHL when he first came to the Flames. he was a fighter only and was there to counter the Semenko's in the league. 

 

He improved into an adequate player over his time with the Flames.. If we lay kehatch's opinions on him, he never should have got the chance to play here and learn.

I agree with both of you, however we had roster of guys that could play both ends. Back in those days you had both types of players, onw who just fought and ones that did both. The fact are today there is no respect for anyone, hence the need for enforcers. Look no further than EDM when RNH had to fight, who stepped in, NOBODY cause there roster got bigger but their first line couldn't beat there sisters in a fist fight. 

[CheersMan]

Intimidation wins hockey games.  You can intimidate your opposition in many ways including predictable scoring, playing sound defense, great goaltending, physical play/fighting.  The great teams intimidate in every area.  As long as fighting is part of the game I want the best (Grat’s) on my team.  I also want the best offensive and defensive players, I want the best goaltender as well.  Grat’s only fills 1 of 23 spots and he fills it very well.  His presence gives our younger and smaller guys the confidence to play.  What we need now are guys that can score, guys that can play defense and guys that can stop a puck.

This is a copycat league.  Everyone wants to be like the last SC champ.  Couple years back everyone wants to be like BOS.  Today everyone wants to be like LA.  Just because TML drops Orr doesn’t mean we should be dropping Grat’s.  Besides, who wants to be like the TML anyways? 

Someone mentioned that Grat’s hasn’t been fighting lately.  That’s because the ground work has been laid, he has a reputation of knocking people out.  No one wants to fight him except for some new kid trying to make a name for himself, but he predictably answers the bell when required.  In his last 97 games as a Flame his plus minus is -8, that’s not bad considering what he gives back.

I remember a few years back, after Grat’s left the first time, teams would come into our building and push us around because there was little consequence and very little push back.  It was embarrassing in fact.  Grat’s then returns a couple years later, most people remember the fight and the famous solute?  That was notice to the league that getting 2 pts in Calgary won’t be so easy anymore.  That fixed one part of our game, now we need to fix a few more parts.

[tmac70]

Intimidation wins hockey games.  You can intimidate your opposition in many ways including predictable scoring, playing sound defense, great goaltending, physical play/fighting.  The great teams intimidate in every area.  As long as fighting is part of the game I want the best (Grat’s) on my team.  I also want the best offensive and defensive players, I want the best goaltender as well.  Grat’s only fills 1 of 23 spots and he fills it very well.  His presence gives our younger and smaller guys the confidence to play.  What we need now are guys that can score, guys that can play defense and guys that can stop a puck.

This is a copycat league.  Everyone wants to be like the last SC champ.  Couple years back everyone wants to be like BOS.  Today everyone wants to be like LA.  Just because TML drops Orr doesn’t mean we should be dropping Grat’s.  Besides, who wants to be like the TML anyways? 

Someone mentioned that Grat’s hasn’t been fighting lately.  That’s because the ground work has been laid, he has a reputation of knocking people out.  No one wants to fight him except for some new kid trying to make a name for himself, but he predictably answers the bell when required.  In his last 97 games as a Flame his plus minus is -8, that’s not bad considering what he gives back.

I remember a few years back, after Grat’s left the first time, teams would come into our building and push us around because there was little consequence and very little push back.  It was embarrassing in fact.  Grat’s then returns a couple years later, most people remember the fight and the famous solute?  That was notice to the league that getting 2 pts in Calgary won’t be so easy anymore.  That fixed one part of our game, now we need to fix a few more parts.

Nobody disputes the fact that Grats is tough. What the irrefutable point is does he wins us hockey games, no, he wins fights. I agree with having physical guys on a team but they have to be able to play hockey. LA, CHI St Louis,ANA they wear teams out with physical play not by fighting. Does having a fighter on your bench intimidate me, no, playing a highly offensive/physical team is more intimidating than having a fighter on the bench. 

[pcs]

Hi all. Haven't checked in and posted in a long time, but have been following constantly. For some reason, this topic has caused me to break my silence.

 

I'm wondering if anyone has a sense that perhaps Treliving is giving all of these "truculent" enforcer types a trial in the hopes that one (or maybe two) of them will really work with the team; the remainder to be shipped out via trade, shipped to Addy, bought out, etc.? Or maybe they were early acquisitions made in an effort to endear him to Burke?

 

Someone suggested in another thread that our various reclamation projects (Raymond, Setoguchi) were taken on before anyone really knew what kind of potential we might have on the farm. If we're lucky, those that don't work out are dropped to make room for a kid or two as the season progresses. Might the goon squad have been approached with that mindset? Doesn't make the most sense (better would be not to have hired them all in the first place!), but I'll take that over the belief that the team actually needs all of these enforcers in the active lineup at the same time on a long-term basis.

 

Has anyone seen any indication that this might be management's thinking? Or is this just me looking for a silver lining where there's really just a big crappy storm cloud?

[robrob74]

Nobody disputes the fact that Grats is tough. What the irrefutable point is does he wins us hockey games, no, he wins fights. I agree with having physical guys on a team but they have to be able to play hockey. LA, CHI St Louis,ANA they wear teams out with physical play not by fighting. Does having a fighter on your bench intimidate me, no, playing a highly offensive/physical team is more intimidating than having a fighter on the bench.

We are not winning hockey games anyway with or without Mc Grattan. Look at the rest of the team, who do we have that says this is a playoff team. Like someone else pointed out, he is 1 of 23. A combined -8 over 90+ games is better than a lot of other players. I know he doesn't play as much, but without him, this team was pushed around so much that there was no flow to the game. Put that in the advanced stats.

We are still in a rebuild. We are growing our prospects and growing our prospect pool. This team is going to have a lot of bad games, and possession numbers are going to mean something, but the fact remains we are a relatively young team and that is going to drive those numbers down regardless of who we have in there.

Bollig played for Chicago, one of the most skilled teams in the league. Just throwing that out there. Did they not win the cup last year because of that Fact?

Yes we have a crappy fourth line, yes we have an okay 3rd line, but we don't really have a real 1st line. This team is going to drive our possession numbers down. The management is buying time and trying to ice a reasonably competitive team while we keep developing players. We all know that our possession numbers are low because we did a elbowing job of drafting up until very recent. We still have to find out what we have in these recent draft picks.

Picking a guy like Smith in this last draft helps with the replacement of the enforcers because he can play big, hit and pinch in a goal or two every now and then...

Also, some of us are using then for than.... We are not talking time when comparing two things... It's easy to do and then keep writing, but then, I prefer to have it right than it being wrong. I make mistakes too though.