Goaltending

[travel_dude]

24 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

He might not be interested.    It's true.  And it's true we had to offer nhl contracts to the likes of Ramo to get them over.

 

I guess that goes back to havjg the scouting capacity to make those big decisions.   And I don't think we have it.

 

But also, I really do believe there is a huge pool of talent that never gets a chance.   Basically all talent 6 feet and under.   As well as guys from less scouted regions.   My guess is this guy went to the world cup for a reason and would love a shot.   I might be wring.

 

I guess where I am going with this is that there is some opportunity out there for teams willing to make the investment and the talent pool is ...impressive. 

 

I think what you see is that the talent pool is all over the map for skill.  Askarov looked like the best player in the KHL.  This guy looks like a good player in a lesser league.  Which is fine.  I do think the Flames track these things, as every team does.  They might not be at every game, but I am sure they track players.  It's literally their job.

 

As you recall, we signed Rittich from that league.  He was old for a prospect, so likely had no better options.  At the time, there would have been a path to the NHL.  Maybe for an older guy, being offered a contract to play in Canada is good, but it's a big thing for a younger guy not drafted.  What is the draw for him?  Make $70k in Canada?  Most of that goes to taxes and just living.  Calgary ain't cheap.

[JTech780]

Hlavaj put average numbers in one of the weakest pro leagues in Europe. Now he has moved up a level to the Czech league, but even that league is on the lower end and his numbers are pretty average.

 

Sure the Flames could sign him, but where is he going to play? He isn’t good enough to play in the AHL, so the ECHL? May as well let him develop in Europe and sign him when he shows signs of being at least capable of playing in the AHL, his numbers suggest he isn’t there yet.

 

Edit: JJ starts the same conversation every year and every year shows little to no knowledge of the world of hockey, even though the logistics have been explained to him over and over again.

[travel_dude]

11 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Hlavaj put average numbers in one of the weakest pro leagues in Europe. Now he has moved up a level to the Czech league, but even that league is on the lower end and his numbers are pretty average.

 

Sure the Flames could sign him, but where is he going to play? He isn’t good enough to play in the AHL, so the ECHL? May as well let him develop in Europe and sign him when he shows signs of being at least capable of playing in the AHL, his numbers suggest he isn’t there yet.

 

Edit: JJ starts the same conversation every year and every year shows little to no knowledge of the world of hockey, even though the logistics have been explained to him over and over again.

 

Can't fault the guy for looking up stats.  He does a good job of picking through the weeds for dandelions.  Can't say I spend that much time looking.  So there's that.

 

I do assume that the Flames are good at identifying targets.  We have some good prospects and have already signed a couple of guys to AHL deals.  They are already in NA.  

[jjgallow]

58 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Hlavaj put average numbers in one of the weakest pro leagues in Europe. Now he has moved up a level to the Czech league, but even that league is on the lower end and his numbers are pretty average.

 

Sure the Flames could sign him, but where is he going to play? He isn’t good enough to play in the AHL, so the ECHL? May as well let him develop in Europe and sign him when he shows signs of being at least capable of playing in the AHL, his numbers suggest he isn’t there yet.

 

Edit: JJ starts the same conversation every year and every year shows little to no knowledge of the world of hockey, even though the logistics have been explained to him over and over again.

 

I know statements like this are super popular right now with the usuals all patting themselves on the back.

 

I won't bite with an equally elevated response.

 

I will simply inform you that you are incorrect.

 

You might possibly be basing it on Vladar's 6 game hot streak there, not sure.    Czechia is a men's league.   The WC is a men's competition.    For a 21 year old he excelled at both.  You won't find another goalie who performed that well in those leagues at 21 who isn't signed or playing in the NHL.

 

Generally speaking a goalie his size is going to perform with very similar numbers in the AHL as they do there.   And I can give you lots of examples of that with very slight variations in either direction. 

 

That puts him on par with other goalies in this conversation like Askarov etc.

 

But free.

 

Doesn't matter how smart or stupid I am.   You're forming a statistical opinion and i can assure you he is statistically competitive.   Sure you need scouts but that wasn't your arguement. 

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-best-ice-hockey-leagues/

[bosn111]

JJ is a passionate fan who wants the team to get better. Nothing wrong with that. He honestly does a lot of thinking of ways to get better and he is not the only one. 
 

The biggest issue with this particular thinking, as I see it, is we fans have been burned too often by “the best goalie / D man / goal scorer not in the NHL”, who then comes over and is average at best, or a flop at worst. Many fans are tired of the narrative.

 

This doesn’t mean that this option is not possible for success, just hasn’t worked out for the Flames the last however many times. 
 

When all fans stay level headed and respectful, great discussions occur. When emotions and jabs take over, the threads fall apart. Let’s keep things respectful as we are all fans.

[JTech780]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Can't fault the guy for looking up stats.  He does a good job of picking through the weeds for dandelions.  Can't say I spend that much time looking.  So there's that.

 

I do assume that the Flames are good at identifying targets.  We have some good prospects and have already signed a couple of guys to AHL deals.  They are already in NA.  

Oh I have no problem with someone looking at stats and trying to find hidden gems, but to suggest the Flames are failing because they aren’t signing every guy with somewhat good stats on eliteprospects shows a lack of understanding.

 

There is only 6 pro spots for goalies with the Flames. Most players aren’t going to leave their home pro leagues to come here to play in the ECHL, so that leaves 4 spots in pro hockey to offer. 

[JTech780]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I know statements like this are super popular right now with the usuals all patting themselves on the back.

 

I won't bite with an equally elevated response.

 

I will simply inform you that you are incorrect.

 

You might possibly be basing it on Vladar's 6 game hot streak there, not sure.    Czechia is a men's league.   The WC is a men's competition.    For a 21 year old he excelled at both.  You won't find another goalie who performed that well in those leagues at 21 who isn't signed or playing in the NHL.

 

Generally speaking a goalie his size is going to perform with very similar numbers in the AHL as they do there.   And I can give you lots of examples of that with very slight variations in either direction. 

 

That puts him on par with other goalies in this conversation like Askarov etc.

 

But free.

 

Doesn't matter how smart or stupid I am.   You're forming a statistical opinion and i can assure you he is statistically competitive.   Sure you need scouts but that wasn't your arguement. 

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-best-ice-hockey-leagues/

Except he isn’t 21 and he hasn’t excelled in the Czech league, in fact he has only played 5 games in that league and is in the middle of the pack in save %. A quick look and the last young goalie to come out of that league and be in be a starter in the NHL is Karel Vejmelka, and Hlavaj’s numbers aren’t close to Vejmelka at the same age, and Vejmelka’s NHL numbers leave a lot to be desired.

 

Hlavaj’s numbers are not competitive.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Except he isn’t 21 and he hasn’t excelled in the Czech league, in fact he has only played 5 games in that league and is in the middle of the pack in save %. A quick look and the last young goalie to come out of that league and be in be a starter in the NHL is Karel Vejmelka, and Hlavaj’s numbers aren’t close to Vejmelka at the same age, and Vejmelka’s NHL numbers leave a lot to be desired.

 

Hlavaj’s numbers are not competitive.

 

I don't really have time for this, look i was honestly trying to be nice, and all you've been is insulting when nobody was attacking you.

 

Please just stop embarrassing yourself so thoroughly. 

 

Please stop trying to show everyone how smart you are by knowing how unproductive the leage is that produced Dominik Hasek.

 

You're literally giving me a recent example of an NHL starter who's NHL save percentage and Czechia numbers are only different by 0.01.

 

I am sure that your deep analytics took account for the fact that this guy is playing on the worst team in the league, and has played more minutes in that league  already than anyone his age this year.

 

I am sure his WC performance was a fluke because Czechia defends so well as a team.

 

Look I picked this guy at random as stated originally, if I put an hour into it I could probably come up with 3 to 5 others just as promising or more promising.   If you would stop falling on your face for a bit maybe I'd be doing that instead of trying to explain basics.

[conundrumed]

I like our goalie scouting personally. Sure we took MacDonald over Demko but that's a call on how you're perceiving the construct of a 17-18yo. Nobody was complaining at drafting Parsons but it didn't work out. Every single team has this happen.

Signing Markstrom was a sign that we had to stop Blockchaining around and at least get a bonafide NHL goalie. The cost was the cost.

But when you're on the draft floor knowing you can take a chance on Wolf in the 7th rd, that's top shelf work.

They spotted Rittich overseas and it was easy to see that his basic mechanics are as solid as anyone's.

Taking Sergeev in the 7th rd...who, exactly, is scouting a goalie in N. Louisiana?

The Vladar acquisition was stellar. Low cost, Boston was in a pickle and our goalie scouts really like him.

Then cycling NCAA goalies that might be something.

I get we're not drafting Askarov's and higher goalie picks, but the unfortunate reality is that we spent a world of picks on trades so never had the draft capital. It's not that we missed out, we didn't have enough picks to make it work. If we wanna be Detroit and have 6 picks/yr in the top 50, well, get used to an almost unwatchable NHL product.

I think our G dept has been as solid as most of the other 31 teams. If there is a G out there that has the potential to be a top 100 goalie in the world, make no mistake, he's being heavily scouted.

[robrob74]

12 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I like our goalie scouting personally. Sure we took MacDonald over Demko but that's a call on how you're perceiving the construct of a 17-18yo. Nobody was complaining at drafting Parsons but it didn't work out. Every single team has this happen.

Signing Markstrom was a sign that we had to stop Blockchaining around and at least get a bonafide NHL goalie. The cost was the cost.

But when you're on the draft floor knowing you can take a chance on Wolf in the 7th rd, that's top shelf work.

They spotted Rittich overseas and it was easy to see that his basic mechanics are as solid as anyone's.

Taking Sergeev in the 7th rd...who, exactly, is scouting a goalie in N. Louisiana?

The Vladar acquisition was stellar. Low cost, Boston was in a pickle and our goalie scouts really like him.

Then cycling NCAA goalies that might be something.

I get we're not drafting Askarov's and higher goalie picks, but the unfortunate reality is that we spent a world of picks on trades so never had the draft capital. It's not that we missed out, we didn't have enough picks to make it work. If we wanna be Detroit and have 6 picks/yr in the top 50, well, get used to an almost unwatchable NHL product.

I think our G dept has been as solid as most of the other 31 teams. If there is a G out there that has the potential to be a top 100 goalie in the world, make no mistake, he's being heavily scouted.

I also wonder if the way they scout goalies has shifted since McDonald. 

[JTech780]

16 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I don't really have time for this, look i was honestly trying to be nice, and all you've been is insulting when nobody was attacking you.

 

Please just stop embarrassing yourself so thoroughly. 

 

Please stop trying to show everyone how smart you are by knowing how unproductive the leage is that produced Dominik Hasek.

 

You're literally giving me a recent example of an NHL starter who's NHL save percentage and Czechia numbers are only different by 0.01.

 

I am sure that your deep analytics took account for the fact that this guy is playing on the worst team in the league, and has played more minutes in that league  already than anyone his age this year.

 

I am sure his WC performance was a fluke because Czechia defends so well as a team.

 

Look I picked this guy at random as stated originally, if I put an hour into it I could probably come up with 3 to 5 others just as promising or more promising.   If you would stop falling on your face for a bit maybe I'd be doing that instead of trying to explain basics.

Ok great let’s see the 3 to 5 other promising goalies, and then you can explain where they will play.

[Heartbreaker]

13 hours ago, conundrumed said:

...

Nobody was complaining at drafting Parsons but it didn't work out. Every single team has this happen.

 

 

I really did think that Tyler Parsons was going to work out.

 

Love.

[cross16]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I also wonder if the way they scout goalies has shifted since McDonald. 

I don’t think it has to be honest. Sure McDonald over Demko looks bad in hindsight but it wasn’t that egregious at the time and I also believe it came done to injury. Demko had a hip surgery and it’s been reported that the flames didn’t think he’d be 100%. 
 

flames have traditionally been pretty conservative when it comes to injuries and prospects. 
 

Despite what some suggest or claim they’re really isn’t a person or organization in the NHL that has the position figured out. Every evolving strategy at the position. 

[bosn111]

It has been said before that predicting goalies is likely the most difficult task to give anyone which makes drafting near impossible.

 

Scout sees young goalie in a game. Standing on his head, stopping every shot that comes his way, ends up with a shutout. Come back a month later, same goalie let’s in 4 goals on first 10 shots including a very soft one before being pulled in the first period. Which game is the better representation of his skills and potential? Does the scout even come back for a third viewing after the stinker game?

 

The Flames have had success drafting tenders, have had some bad luck, and some outright flops. Drafted Vernon and Kidd, both had solid careers though only 1 will possibly get into the hall of fame. Craig Anderson had a decent career, just not for the Flames. Broissoit and McElhenny were serviceable backups for teams not called the Flames. Ortio just never quite got there, Gilles and Krahn fell to injuries they couldn’t come back from and Irving played a few games but didn’t quite work out.

 

So is Flames drafting goalies really that bad, or is it simply that difficult to assess goalies? Was there just bad luck? Was the development coaching inadequate?

 

Based on the statistics compared to other teams, I would say Flames drafting goalies is average, though Wolf has a shot to make it above average. Doesn’t mean it is good or great, but how many teams have a much better record?

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, bosn111 said:

It has been said before that predicting goalies is likely the most difficult task to give anyone which makes drafting near impossible.

 

Scout sees young goalie in a game. Standing on his head, stopping every shot that comes his way, ends up with a shutout. Come back a month later, same goalie let’s in 4 goals on first 10 shots including a very soft one before being pulled in the first period. Which game is the better representation of his skills and potential? Does the scout even come back for a third viewing after the stinker game?

 

The Flames have had success drafting tenders, have had some bad luck, and some outright flops. Drafted Vernon and Kidd, both had solid careers though only 1 will possibly get into the hall of fame. Craig Anderson had a decent career, just not for the Flames. Broissoit and McElhenny were serviceable backups for teams not called the Flames. Ortio just never quite got there, Gilles and Krahn fell to injuries they couldn’t come back from and Irving played a few games but didn’t quite work out.

 

So is Flames drafting goalies really that bad, or is it simply that difficult to assess goalies? Was there just bad luck? Was the development coaching inadequate?

 

Based on the statistics compared to other teams, I would say Flames drafting goalies is average, though Wolf has a shot to make it above average. Doesn’t mean it is good or great, but how many teams have a much better record?

 

I would agree with average.    Some will say above average, and while I don't agree, I understand it.

 

When I say we should assess our goalie scouting,  it's not so much a comment on our scouts....it's more to do with it being very important.   Especially in the next year or 2.

 

When I say we should assess our goalie development ..

Well

This is a different conversation 

[conundrumed]

Dwayne Roloson. We acquire absolute studs....but have to wait until they're 30.

For fun, put me in charge.

"Okay Craig, here's my plan:

Don't draft or acquire goalies under 27yo. We're only scouting the character and abilities of >28yo journeymen like they're new. *unhired*

Use your resources to focus on the skaters, I'll find a couple of guys that are worried about retiring/being forced out with their $5mil career earnings. They're developed and getting desperate". lol

I'm sure that would fly.

[jjgallow]

I think it's pretty clear that at least in the past, some very high-end goalies had their development stunted here for whatever reason and only bloomed later in other environments. 

 

Coaching and development staff should be looked at, but also...

 

Ever since Kipper we have had a system where we overplay our best goalie and underplay the rest.  At best, I think this hinders development.   At worst,  it is unsafe and increases the chance of injury. 

 

We seen it with Markstrom burnt out in the playoffs,  we seen it slow down Vladar's progress if not Wolf's.

 

We also seen it in the AHL, with Wolf getting burnt out by playoff time.

 

It's another reason I want another Wolf.  2 of them should be splitting time down there.     Do that and soon you need a 3rd because they will feed off each other and one of them will claim an NHL spot sooner.

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Dwayne Roloson. We acquire absolute studs....but have to wait until they're 30.

For fun, put me in charge.

"Okay Craig, here's my plan:

Don't draft or acquire goalies under 27yo. We're only scouting the character and abilities of >28yo journeymen like they're new. *unhired*

Use your resources to focus on the skaters, I'll find a couple of guys that are worried about retiring/being forced out with their $5mil career earnings. They're developed and getting desperate". lol

I'm sure that would fly.

 

Kind of the way BT did it for his goalies, and that's how we got the Jacob.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

I think it's pretty clear that at least in the past, some very high-end goalies had their development stunted here for whatever reason and only bloomed later in other environments. 

 

Coaching and development staff should be looked at, but also...

 

Ever since Kipper we have had a system where we overplay our best goalie and underplay the rest.  At best, I think this hinders development.   At worst,  it is unsafe and increases the chance of injury. 

 

We seen it with Markstrom burnt out in the playoffs,  we seen it slow down Vladar's progress if not Wolf's.

 

We also seen it in the AHL, with Wolf getting burnt out by playoff time.

 

It's another reason I want another Wolf.  2 of them should be splitting time down there.     Do that and soon you need a 3rd because they will feed off each other and one of them will claim an NHL spot sooner.

 

 

I can see how this makes some sense. 

 

We had McElhinney when he was young, but was providing decent back up services well into his career. If we played him, maybe we would have won more by having a rested Kipper, and had him ready for playoffs. 

 

It's tough when the back up only wins you 1 game all year. But I think that's part of only playing them so often. 

 

I liked the Roloson. Tabaracci, etc. Back when I was a love the team regardless of the product times. I didn't mind the few journeymen we had leading up to Kipper. It started to get ugly though. I think that's when I started to get exhausted by the way they didn't really have a plan.

[conundrumed]

32 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Kind of the way BT did it for his goalies, and that's how we got the Jacob.

Blame Keetley, Irving, Ortio and Gillies.lol

He did it out of necessity. I'd do it methodically, like, write an algorithm and junk <:o

[cross16]

I like what the Flames have started to do lately with drafting goalies later in the draft an in particular having a bit of a focus on the Russians and players heading the NCAA route. Afford you the chance to be more patient which I think is ultimately what you need with goalies. 

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I like what the Flames have started to do lately with drafting goalies later in the draft an in particular having a bit of a focus on the Russians and players heading the NCAA route. Afford you the chance to be more patient which I think is ultimately what you need with goalies. 

Same. Good way to buy some time while still having access to the athlete.

[bosn111]

I am not against the premise of competition between two goalies driving each other to be better. You see this regularly and it is beneficial because you know the player who ultimately stands out most is competitive and driven to be the best (important in big games).

 

In order for this to work, the goalies need to have the skill already there that just needs to get pulled out through hard work. What you lose out on is the player who may have a drive to steadily improve, who learns to play solid positionally and using good technique rather than relying on natural skill. These goalies thrive under mentorship by an older goalie but fail if their counterpart is competing with the intent of being better. 
 

Both methods could be successful, it depends on what personality your goalie has. I recall a few years ago (can’t remember how many anymore) the Flames used the competition to drive each other. There were 3 or 4 competing and none got enough game time to really shine. I may be mistaken about the exact goalies but I think there was Broissoit, Gilles, Ortio and Rittich. Basically development stagnated and none really became what was expected.

 

So it really depends on your goalies. I’m not sure competition in the AHL is the benefit for Wolf. He needs reps against better players, not a teammate trying to take his job in my opinion.

 

Does not mean we don’t need another high potential goalie in the system, just not looking for a direct challenger, rather a replacement once Wolf moves up.

[sak22]

23 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

 

Both methods could be successful, it depends on what personality your goalie has. I recall a few years ago (can’t remember how many anymore) the Flames used the competition to drive each other. There were 3 or 4 competing and none got enough game time to really shine. I may be mistaken about the exact goalies but I think there was Broissoit, Gilles, Ortio and Rittich. Basically development stagnated and none really became what was expected.

 

Broissoit was traded very early in his pro career and Ortio never really overlapped with anyone significant.  Gillies and Rittich were the main two who split, hard to call it a problem, Rittich managed to have a decent career considering where he came from and Gillies had a promising start but lost most of his first pro year to injury and never seemed to bounce back after that.  I do remember Hartley basically having open competition in most of his years behind the bench, worked one year when Hiller and Ramo played excellent, but maybe too well as the early yank of Hiller in game 6 against Vancouver seemed to destroy Hiller's confidence.  Competition can drive you to play better, but also destroy you when you put too much pressure on yourself to keep the net.

[bosn111]

Thanks Sak, I couldn’t remember who the goalies were.
 

Looking online there was the Ramo, Hiller, Ortio issue in 13/14 where all 3 left after the season. Broissoit was also in that year. I think that was the situation I was remembering. (The one you mentioned but adding 2 more tenders)

Anyone else remember something similar?