Goaltending

[jjgallow]

55 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

That's kinda the point.  If Wolf had been flawless in his NHL debut and his lone start in pre-season, then the team might be approaching the season differently.  It's not like we have an all star like Hiller and a backup as good as Rittich.  

 

 

I have a lot of hope for Wolf, some hope for Vladar too.

 

It's not all bad.   Wolf had an opportunity,  but he will get many more I am sure.

 

No disrespect to any of those guys, this is just a position worth going overboard on, would love to see more in the pipeline 

[conundrumed]

6 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

I have a lot of hope for Wolf, some hope for Vladar too.

 

It's not all bad.   Wolf had an opportunity,  but he will get many more I am sure.

 

No disrespect to any of those guys, this is just a position worth going overboard on, would love to see more in the pipeline 

Don't forget Sergeev. The NCAA fires up this wkend and UConn goes b2b vs Colgate.

They're in tough in the Hockey East division with BU ranked #1 with the Celebrini's and 14 NHL drafted prospects. BC is ranked #6 with half of last year's USNTDP u18 team, including Leonard-Smith-Perrault STILL together.

I'm positive Sergeev will have a really good year to follow up last season:

19GP; 11-6-1; 2.61gaa; .912sv%.

So our top 2 G prospects are 7th rders. That's kinda fun. Not 1, but 2 Pekka Rinne's. lol

We added 2 more NCAA grads last year to test out. It's not like we aren't looking. 31 other teams are too.

You can't cycle through them all, and hits are extremely rare.

Did you hear the commentators re Adin Hill coming in last year? Not even they knew he goalies very well. They were calling him 4th-5th string, ECHL goalie. It was absurd. Due to them obviously never having actually watched him before. I was insulted for him. lol

Goalies are waaay harder than coulda woulda shoulda. Nearly impossible to project to the NHL as has been proven over and over again. Still waiting for Spencer Knight to be Carey Price...

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Don't forget Sergeev. The NCAA fires up this wkend and UConn goes b2b vs Colgate.

They're in tough in the Hockey East division with BU ranked #1 with the Celebrini's and 14 NHL drafted prospects. BC is ranked #6 with half of last year's USNTDP u18 team, including Leonard-Smith-Perrault STILL together.

I'm positive Sergeev will have a really good year to follow up last season:

19GP; 11-6-1; 2.61gaa; .912sv%.

So our top 2 G prospects are 7th rders. That's kinda fun. Not 1, but 2 Pekka Rinne's. lol

We added 2 more NCAA grads last year to test out. It's not like we aren't looking. 31 other teams are too.

You can't cycle through them all, and hits are extremely rare.

Did you hear the commentators re Adin Hill coming in last year? Not even they knew he goalies very well. They were calling him 4th-5th string, ECHL goalie. It was absurd. Due to them obviously never having actually watched him before. I was insulted for him. lol

Goalies are waaay harder than coulda woulda shoulda. Nearly impossible to project to the NHL as has been proven over and over again. Still waiting for Spencer Knight to be Carey Price...

 

There is for sure an element of voodoo.

 

The position is yet another strong case for bumping the draft age.  And yes, you can sometimes get lucky with goalies in the later rounds.

 

I do have my eye on Sergeev

 

All that said though, again it's still a position that is hard to overdo.  Never seen a team blame their failures on having too many good goalie prospects.

 

Adin Hill I always liked.  Was not shocked.   Even from a stats perspective,  he's a hard read but I liked.  With goalies I think you need to care less about consistency when they are young and more about what level they can reach when hot.   Achieving consistency later is the gamble.  Adin was always relatively highly rated until some AHL struggle that he overcame.   Is exactly why I don't give up easy on the Ortio types.

 

Spencer Knight I like too.   Would be a good acquisition if he falls out of favor.   I'm  not advocating paying top dollar for the flavor of the week.     I'm thinking long term.

 

If we are to start building out around the net, then this position should get loads of focus.  Late rounds, high rounds, waiver pickups, ptos, trades.   

 

To be honest,  I don't mind Vladar either.  He could surprise.

 

I would trade him though because he is too old to build around even though he's likely just entering his prime.  Would trade him in a 10 game hot streak and be hated by all.  Lol

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

If we are to start building out around the net, then this position should get loads of focus.  Late rounds, high rounds, waiver pickups, ptos, trades.   

 

To be honest,  I don't mind Vladar either.  He could surprise.

 

I would trade him though because he is too old to build around even though he's likely just entering his prime.  Would trade him in a 10 game hot streak and be hated by all.  Lol

 

You say a lot of things about building a pipeline but not about using the guys in it.  We have had multiple goalies and not enough places to play them.  That backs up when they are ready to play NHL games.  Wolf is a prime example.  Park a couple in the NCAA if you go that route, but they back up when they graduate.  Lose them if they wait and you have no future for them.  

 

26 is too old?  So you trade him in season, then have an injury to Markstrom.  Wolf/Dansk is your NHL tandem.  That doesn't inspire ,much confidence.  Wolf could be the stud we think he is, but beyond that we have to likely make a trade for anything longer than 10 game injury.  So, we just finished trading a goalie that performed well and have to trade for scraps that may not even be close.

 

I'm starting to re-think my goalie strategy.  Maybe we give Vladar the year and only use Wolf for max 15 games.  See what we really have.  Not ideal, but getting a 3rd isn't exactly a huge win if you have to take big risks because of it.

[cross16]

the only thing I'd say about goaltending right now is I think with all of them, yes including Markstrom, the leash should be longer to start the season. Flames have made several systematic changes and have changed from man to zone for their d coverage. From what I say against the Jets they still have a ways to go before they are on the same page with it. They gave up some super easy chances against the Jets and while I haven't watched a ton this pre season I would suspect it's been the same no matter who is in net. 

 

I think it's going to take 10-12 games of the regular season before we get a read on anyone which the Flames master the change. 

[travel_dude]

41 minutes ago, cross16 said:

the only thing I'd say about goaltending right now is I think with all of them, yes including Markstrom, the leash should be longer to start the season. Flames have made several systematic changes and have changed from man to zone for their d coverage. From what I say against the Jets they still have a ways to go before they are on the same page with it. They gave up some super easy chances against the Jets and while I haven't watched a ton this pre season I would suspect it's been the same no matter who is in net. 

 

I think it's going to take 10-12 games of the regular season before we get a read on anyone which the Flames master the change. 

 

I will be interested to see the impact of zone.  Weegar suggested that some are struggling with it, as it's a big change.  I believe Weegar came from such a system, so reverting to it won't be as difficult for him.  The guys like Hanifin and Ras and even Zadorov might have a harder time, being that they played under man coverage for quite a few years here.

 

I'm not really concerned with goaltending at this point.  We have two guys that have played well in the past, so it's not like we are resurrecting careers.  Wolf is an up and comer.  We have to manage his trajectory.  Don't want to develop another Matt Murray.  

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Don't want to develop another Matt Murray.  

 

Basically gotta build the new arena to Olympic size then.

 

I really think they should.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/matt-murray-concussion-penguins-nhl-1.4855812

 

Dude has has like a billion zillion trillion concussions starting with the Brayden Schenn hit.  I am assuming this is what you're getting at.

 

He recovered from it, but they literally played him almost immediately right after and he was vulnerable to concussions ever since.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/penguins-matt-murray-leaves-game-collision-schenn/

 

Like...full guillotine. 

 

Okay so my arena comment is controversial lol.

 

Some basics: 

follow the protocol.  He should have been out longer after that.

Get real defenceman 

And to your point....manage them.   He was playing too many games in a row when it happened and made a poor decision lunging like that.

 

 

So yes....all these things have to be considered before even stocking up on goalie prospects 

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

the only thing I'd say about goaltending right now is I think with all of them, yes including Markstrom, the leash should be longer to start the season. Flames have made several systematic changes and have changed from man to zone for their d coverage. From what I say against the Jets they still have a ways to go before they are on the same page with it. They gave up some super easy chances against the Jets and while I haven't watched a ton this pre season I would suspect it's been the same no matter who is in net. 

 

I think it's going to take 10-12 games of the regular season before we get a read on anyone which the Flames master the change. 

The torches and pitchforks will be out by game 6 if history tells us anything.

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Basically gotta build the new arena to Olympic size then.

 

I really think they should.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/matt-murray-concussion-penguins-nhl-1.4855812

 

Dude has has like a billion zillion trillion concussions starting with the Brayden Schenn hit.  I am assuming this is what you're getting at.

 

He recovered from it, but they literally played him almost immediately right after and he was vulnerable to concussions ever since.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/penguins-matt-murray-leaves-game-collision-schenn/

 

Like...full guillotine. 

 

Okay so my arena comment is controversial lol.

 

Some basics: 

follow the protocol.  He should have been out longer after that.

Get real defenceman 

And to your point....manage them.   He was playing too many games in a row when it happened and made a poor decision lunging like that.

 

 

So yes....all these things have to be considered before even stocking up on goalie prospects 

 

 

Plucking a player out of the AHL and putting them as the defacto starter is not managing their trajectory.  He was pretty darn young and underdeveloped physically.  Much like Wolf is today.  So, you need to be careful for smaller players or wirey guys.  Goalie contact is almost a given.  

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

the only thing I'd say about goaltending right now is I think with all of them, yes including Markstrom, the leash should be longer to start the season. Flames have made several systematic changes and have changed from man to zone for their d coverage. From what I say against the Jets they still have a ways to go before they are on the same page with it. They gave up some super easy chances against the Jets and while I haven't watched a ton this pre season I would suspect it's been the same no matter who is in net. 

 

I think it's going to take 10-12 games of the regular season before we get a read on anyone which the Flames master the change. 

 

Last year was probably the only year I was upset with goaltending. I tend to believe goalie numbers are a team stat. While sometimes it is the talent level, but I think the amount of mental errors the team has made over the years has been the result of a lot of odd-man rushes against, and so it's tough to judge the goaltending aside from things that are obvious. 

 

Last year was the only year I felt Markstrom/goaltending was part of the problem. Other times, I felt so so on it being a problem, or more thinking, they need to fix the team's issues and we will see how the goalies fair. Not saying we've had starter calibre every year, just that it is hard to get into a groove when teams hang goalies out to dry as much as the Flames have. 

 

We will see with the new system. I don't know how different it will be from Sutter. But if they were defensively aware under Sutter, it can spill into this year, with some slight changes. 

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Last year was probably the only year I was upset with goaltending. I tend to believe goalie numbers are a team stat. While sometimes it is the talent level, but I think the amount of mental errors the team has made over the years has been the result of a lot of odd-man rushes against, and so it's tough to judge the goaltending aside from things that are obvious. 

 

Last year was the only year I felt Markstrom/goaltending was part of the problem. Other times, I felt so so on it being a problem, or more thinking, they need to fix the team's issues and we will see how the goalies fair. Not saying we've had starter calibre every year, just that it is hard to get into a groove when teams hang goalies out to dry as much as the Flames have. 

 

We will see with the new system. I don't know how different it will be from Sutter. But if they were defensively aware under Sutter, it can spill into this year, with some slight changes. 

 

When you chop down goals for and need to rely on goals against to win games, you will always have a harder time making the playoffs.  It doesn't change the low SA% and relatively high GAA, but we were about a dozen goals away from the playoffs last year.  Our team was probably better designed to win in the playoffs than the chippy call regular season.  No 3v3 OT's in playoffs.  

 

Markstrom gave up goals in bunches last year, which is not typical for him.  Last year, it seemed anyway, that goals were frequently odd-man rushes from a turnover and extended D-zone play resulting in better chances.  Maybe that part is fixed and we just see the raw goaltending numbers from normal defensive play.  Maybe we see more scoring from our team and we aren't always on our heels down in 2-1 games or playing prevent hockey for a 2-1 lead for 2 periods.

 

Last year, the defense was run by Huska, but under a Sutter system.  The switch always seemed to mess up our D, so teams exploited that.  And we always took too many penalties trying to cover man on man.  Maybe it doesn't change the penalty situation, but I can't think it could be much worse.

[cross16]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Last year was probably the only year I was upset with goaltending. I tend to believe goalie numbers are a team stat. While sometimes it is the talent level, but I think the amount of mental errors the team has made over the years has been the result of a lot of odd-man rushes against, and so it's tough to judge the goaltending aside from things that are obvious. 

 

Last year was the only year I felt Markstrom/goaltending was part of the problem. Other times, I felt so so on it being a problem, or more thinking, they need to fix the team's issues and we will see how the goalies fair. Not saying we've had starter calibre every year, just that it is hard to get into a groove when teams hang goalies out to dry as much as the Flames have. 

 

We will see with the new system. I don't know how different it will be from Sutter. But if they were defensively aware under Sutter, it can spill into this year, with some slight changes. 

 

I would agree and think this is a pretty fair way to look at it. 

 

Man to zone is a fairly big change in terms of communication and reading the play. Should be an improvement once it's nailed down, but I think it's a harder transition at first because of the importance of communication which is why I expect some growing pains. 

 

I thought the Flames should have gone to more zone last year. I get why the desire to play man but I just don't think it worked for this group. 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Plucking a player out of the AHL and putting them as the defacto starter is not managing their trajectory.  He was pretty darn young and underdeveloped physically.  Much like Wolf is today.  So, you need to be careful for smaller players or wirey guys.  Goalie contact is almost a given.  

 

 

99.978%

[LouCifer]

Markstrom already looking in mid season form. He continues to let in the first shot on goal with consistency. Pre-season, Shmee-season. Systems change, shmystems-change. He has a single game plan - all season, and that’s to stop the puck. He had his break to get himself right between the posts, and right between the ears to start this season, but he looks exactly the same. Sucks for the team to have to worry about going down 1-0 early and often when he’s in net. Trade him 1 for 1 for Hellybyuk, or send him to chicago. I’m not watching that crap for another full season.  

[Heartbreaker]

1 hour ago, LouCifer said:

Markstrom already looking in mid season form. He continues to let in the first shot on goal with consistency. Pre-season, Shmee-season. Systems change, shmystems-change. He has a single game plan - all season, and that’s to stop the puck. He had his break to get himself right between the posts, and right between the ears to start this season, but he looks exactly the same. Sucks for the team to have to worry about going down 1-0 early and often when he’s in net. Trade him 1 for 1 for Hellybyuk, or send him to chicago. I’m not watching that crap for another full season.  

 

I don't think you have a choice, m'man. I mean, unless you choose to watch a different team. I can't see another team wanting to take on the rest of the contract, and besides, he has a no-move clause. For better or worse, he's the Flames #1 for the foreseeable future.

 

Love.

[conundrumed]

4 hours ago, LouCifer said:

Markstrom already looking in mid season form. He continues to let in the first shot on goal with consistency. Pre-season, Shmee-season. Systems change, shmystems-change. He has a single game plan - all season, and that’s to stop the puck. He had his break to get himself right between the posts, and right between the ears to start this season, but he looks exactly the same. Sucks for the team to have to worry about going down 1-0 early and often when he’s in net. Trade him 1 for 1 for Hellybyuk, or send him to chicago. I’m not watching that crap for another full season.  

So. All 5 Flames collapsing on the puck carrier. Wide open dman at the middle of the point, wide open forward in front of the net...I have no idea wtf they were doing, but it sounds like that pathetic little display gets 5 passes.

Does why they scored just not matter at all?

I don't have a problem when a goalie let's in a weak shot. Freeze the play just before the puck goes to the point for the shot. What in the dying F kind of defence is that? All 5 Flames players. WTF are at least 3 of them doing there? And top players to boot. Look at those guys just wiiiiide open in front of Markstrom and at the point.

Now that is scary.

The forwards, the best ones, were awful defensively for goals 1 and 3. The 2nd goal, Oesterle is stuck in no man's land because Hughes just waltzes through the forwards,

If you can't score, can you at least pick your defensive games up?

[jjgallow]

9 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

I don't think you have a choice, m'man. I mean, unless you choose to watch a different team. I can't see another team wanting to take on the rest of the contract, and besides, he has a no-move clause. For better or worse, he's the Flames #1 for the foreseeable future.

 

Love.

 

Well I remember Vancouver had their media write that he was the best goalie in the NHL and then threw that in front of bt.

 

We've got some doozies in our media too

 

Maybe they could write up a  nice piece and show it to Toronto, see of BT's up for another bite

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

So. All 5 Flames collapsing on the puck carrier. Wide open dman at the middle of the point, wide open forward in front of the net...I have no idea wtf they were doing, but it sounds like that pathetic little display gets 5 passes.

Does why they scored just not matter at all?

I don't have a problem when a goalie let's in a weak shot. Freeze the play just before the puck goes to the point for the shot. What in the dying F kind of defence is that? All 5 Flames players. WTF are at least 3 of them doing there? And top players to boot. Look at those guys just wiiiiide open in front of Markstrom and at the point.

Now that is scary.

The forwards, the best ones, were awful defensively for goals 1 and 3. The 2nd goal, Oesterle is stuck in no man's land because Hughes just waltzes through the forwards,

If you can't score, can you at least pick your defensive games up?

 

What we need is some defensive coaching. 

 

Know anyone?

 

 

I have some strong suspicions that we are about to find out why Sutter blew his lid

 

[MP5029]

9 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

I don't think you have a choice, m'man. I mean, unless you choose to watch a different team. I can't see another team wanting to take on the rest of the contract, and besides, he has a no-move clause. For better or worse, he's the Flames #1 for the foreseeable future.

 

Love.

Unfortunately the no-move clause and 6mil price, you are 100% correct!

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

What we need is some defensive coaching. 

 

Know anyone?

 

 

I have some strong suspicions that we are about to find out why Sutter blew his lid

 

 

The head coach is a defensive coach that got egged because of Sutter.  Who replaced him?  Lambert?  MacLean?  Not sure.  I don't think the preseason means Richard.  Have to wait to game 1-10 to see if this was just playing to not get injured or symptomatic to the changing to a system the players aren't used to.

 

No excuses here, just saying I'm not going to panic at pre-season play.  When have we ever looked good, even with top NHL players?

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, conundrumed said:

So. All 5 Flames collapsing on the puck carrier. Wide open dman at the middle of the point, wide open forward in front of the net...I have no idea wtf they were doing, but it sounds like that pathetic little display gets 5 passes.

Does why they scored just not matter at all?

I don't have a problem when a goalie let's in a weak shot. Freeze the play just before the puck goes to the point for the shot. What in the dying F kind of defence is that? All 5 Flames players. WTF are at least 3 of them doing there? And top players to boot. Look at those guys just wiiiiide open in front of Markstrom and at the point.

Now that is scary.

The forwards, the best ones, were awful defensively for goals 1 and 3. The 2nd goal, Oesterle is stuck in no man's land because Hughes just waltzes through the forwards,

If you can't score, can you at least pick your defensive games up?

 

Tough game to watch.  Didn't seem like normal play.  Wake up team, you have a season starting soon.

[Heartbreaker]

2 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Unfortunately the no-move clause and 6mil price, you are 100% correct!

 

Can you please say that again, but like, loud for my wife to hear? You can leave out all the contract stuff if you'd like...

Love.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

The head coach is a defensive coach that got egged because of Sutter.  Who replaced him?  Lambert?  MacLean?  Not sure.  I don't think the preseason means Richard.  Have to wait to game 1-10 to see if this was just playing to not get injured or symptomatic to the changing to a system the players aren't used to.

 

No excuses here, just saying I'm not going to panic at pre-season play.  When have we ever looked good, even with top NHL players?

 

Didn't mean to be a dick about it, you're right, it's just preseason.    I guess I just got drawn in when i saw @conundrumed discovering all the unfiltered words lol

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Didn't mean to be a dick about it, you're right, it's just preseason.    I guess I just got drawn in when i saw @conundrumed discovering all the unfiltered words lol

 

I missed his tirade, but you probably noticed you can fool it by mispelling some words or stringing together several words.  It's like Bill Cosby used to say, fudge is still the intent of saying the F word.  Was that Bill Cosby?  I remeber the original Bill Cosby show which was looselt based on his comedy routines.  He certainly didn't age well.  His Noah routine was the best.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I missed his tirade, but you probably noticed you can fool it by mispelling some words or stringing together several words.  It's like Bill Cosby used to say, fudge is still the intent of saying the F word.  Was that Bill Cosby?  I remeber the original Bill Cosby show which was looselt based on his comedy routines.  He certainly didn't age well.  His Noah routine was the best.

 

Yup he took a wrong turn.

 

I was a huge fan.   Then I went to see him live and he was just a complete dick.

 

He made fun of Calgary like he was too good for it.    Something was off.  Mentally

 

Whenever these hockey players are too good for Calgary, I think of dick Cosby