Goaltending

[jjgallow]

On 5/4/2023 at 3:24 PM, The_People1 said:

 

Let him start about 25-games next season in a backup role.  It's the perfect way to both ease him into the NHL plus shelter/mentor him under a veteran like Markstrom.

 

I agree.  Kind of.

 

A backup role could be good.  But even this is extremely high expectations for his age, and should come part in parcel with things like great goalie coaching,  and not a 3-goalie logjam.

 

Historically,  the Flames solve these dilemmas with a sink or system.   Just let all 3 play and see what happens.   It's incredibly high risk for goalie development. 

 

I am not known for saying popular things,  this is unlikely to be an exception  :

 

his value is sky high right now.  I would not be above trading him for picks.  Reason is that the organization is in a very precarious state right  now, and is highly unlikely to prioritize his development. 

 

Until that's in place,  there is a super high risk of asset devaluation.    Would not be unwise to get a great return on him and take a couple years to build a development system at the NHL level.

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I agree.  Kind of.

 

A backup role could be good.  But even this is extremely high expectations for his age, and should come part in parcel with things like great goalie coaching,  and not a 3-goalie logjam.

 

Historically,  the Flames solve these dilemmas with a sink or system.   Just let all 3 play and see what happens.   It's incredibly high risk for goalie development. 

 

I am not known for saying popular things,  this is unlikely to be an exception  :

 

his value is sky high right now.  I would not be above trading him for picks.  Reason is that the organization is in a very precarious state right  now, and is highly unlikely to prioritize his development. 

 

Until that's in place,  there is a super high risk of asset devaluation.    Would not be unwise to get a great return on him and take a couple years to build a development system at the NHL level.

I liked the idea of playing him in the NHL a little bit this season, anywhere from 15-20 games. Seeing as they're in Calgary, maybe he can tag along on some of the mini road trips and get some of the games that are against bottom feeders, and maybe that gives the team some jump. He can be back in Calgary for the Wranglers.

[The_People1]

12 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I agree.  Kind of.

 

A backup role could be good.  But even this is extremely high expectations for his age, and should come part in parcel with things like great goalie coaching,  and not a 3-goalie logjam.

 

Historically,  the Flames solve these dilemmas with a sink or system.   Just let all 3 play and see what happens.   It's incredibly high risk for goalie development. 

 

I am not known for saying popular things,  this is unlikely to be an exception  :

 

his value is sky high right now.  I would not be above trading him for picks.  Reason is that the organization is in a very precarious state right  now, and is highly unlikely to prioritize his development. 

 

Until that's in place,  there is a super high risk of asset devaluation.    Would not be unwise to get a great return on him and take a couple years to build a development system at the NHL level.

 

I meant we have to move Vladar so it's a 2 goalie system.  Markstrom starting about 60 games and Wolf about 22.  I don't believe playing him first year as a backup will hinder his development.  Aside from starting games, there's still practice/scrimmage where Wolf can pick up valuable experience.  I also don't think it's throwing him into the fire to expect 22 games out of Wolf.  It's never going to be a situation where he gets shelled for 5+ in one game and then we throw him back out there next game to get shelled again.  His starts will be managed.

 

Only concern is, Markstrom is not going to bounce back.  He's simply on the decline and we will find out the hard way.  This means Wolf may have to play 40+ games if we want a chance at the playoffs.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

I meant we have to move Vladar so it's a 2 goalie system.  Markstrom starting about 60 games and Wolf about 22.  I don't believe playing him first year as a backup will hinder his development.  Aside from starting games, there's still practice/scrimmage where Wolf can pick up valuable experience.  I also don't think it's throwing him into the fire to expect 22 games out of Wolf.  It's never going to be a situation where he gets shelled for 5+ in one game and then we throw him back out there next game to get shelled again.  His starts will be managed.

 

Only concern is, Markstrom is not going to bounce back.  He's simply on the decline and we will find out the hard way.  This means Wolf may have to play 40+ games if we want a chance at the playoffs.

 

Yes agreed with all of the above.

 

I am just saying that historically the Flames have left 3 goalie dilemmas to chance and the loser has tended to be the prospect. 

 

But yeah.   I agree. If you can't buy Markstrom out or trade him or combination,  then Vladar has to go so Wolf can get some ice time.

 

Then fix goalie coaching situation. 

 

However,  I don't trust the Flames to do this and also Markstrom is no longer that strong lead to take pressure off Wolf.   

 

I scared.

 

Lol

 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

I liked the idea of playing him in the NHL a little bit this season, anywhere from 15-20 games. Seeing as they're in Calgary, maybe he can tag along on some of the mini road trips and get some of the games that are against bottom feeders, and maybe that gives the team some jump. He can be back in Calgary for the Wranglers.

 

I think most people see goaltending as 2 goalies for a season.  There are so many teams where this isn't even the case.  Some run 3-4 for the season.  The goal is to have a young goalie learn and eventually replace the older one.  So, you get Wolf up for 6 starts and evaluate after each one.  Not 6 in a row, but 6 over a short course of time.  Then you get him AHL games to keep it up.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I liked the idea of playing him in the NHL a little bit this season, anywhere from 15-20 games. Seeing as they're in Calgary, maybe he can tag along on some of the mini road trips and get some of the games that are against bottom feeders, and maybe that gives the team some jump. He can be back in Calgary for the Wranglers.

 

Huge logistical advantage having the Wranglers here yes.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think most people see goaltending as 2 goalies for a season.  There are so many teams where this isn't even the case.  Some run 3-4 for the season.  The goal is to have a young goalie learn and eventually replace the older one.  So, you get Wolf up for 6 starts and evaluate after each one.  Not 6 in a row, but 6 over a short course of time.  Then you get him AHL games to keep it up.

ya! 
 

i feel like the flames haven't operated that way. I don't know if we haven't had the prospects to, or we've missed the boat on developing them properly. Brossoit comes to mind. He's not a world beater or starter, but still in the nhl, and I was surprised to see a few other ex flames prospects still out there minding nets.

[travel_dude]

16 hours ago, robrob74 said:

ya! 
 

i feel like the flames haven't operated that way. I don't know if we haven't had the prospects to, or we've missed the boat on developing them properly. Brossoit comes to mind. He's not a world beater or starter, but still in the nhl, and I was surprised to see a few other ex flames prospects still out there minding nets.

 

We traded him before he even got a shot.  Couple in the AHL and in ECHL.

Traded as part of Smid trade.  Nothing super, but it was a dumb throw in.

Had better NHL upside than Ortio.

 

I just think that if you have a waiver exempt goalie, you can find games for him to play.

Not like he looked any worse than Markstrom.

[DirtyDeeds]

While I somewhat agree that you need to ripen the fruit enough......

 

You can also let it rot if too long.... just saying

 

Flames have a poor history when carrying 3 goaltenders.. It simply does not work for any length of time. Not for game time, not for practice time. If you think he is ready then make a trade and open up a backup spot for him.

[jjgallow]

26 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

While I somewhat agree that you need to ripen the fruit enough......

 

You can also let it rot if too long.... just saying

 

Flames have a poor history when carrying 3 goaltenders.. It simply does not work for any length of time. Not for game time, not for practice time. If you think he is ready then make a trade and open up a backup spot for him.

 

They could solve this by building the new event center's arena into the shape of a triangle.

 

I'll make some calls.

 

p.s....I think @travel_dude is right to have reservations about letting Vladar go over Markstrom.

                         The times to have those reservations though were:

                1.  When we signed Markstrom to a mammoth team-killing contract

                2.  When we invested in Vladar rather than a higher-ceiling prospect for those minutes.

 

I think you will win this though @travel_dude.   We gonna need that triangular arena.

 

 

 

p.s.s...   I take this one step further.  And this is where I go from popular opinion back to unpopular.

          If you really, really want to maximise asset return and solve the goalie trilemma,

              The only way to do that is actually to trade Wolf.  His value is sky-high.

               This could, obviously, backfire.

                But following buy low sell high theory, this is what you do.

                   It also implies that not only are we going into a rebuild, but we are going into a rebuild so deep that even Wolf might be a touch old for it.  Yup.

            So, nobody's going to agree with me on this, and even myself I cringe to say it.

               But the math says that's kind of the last play we have left to maximise returns while solving the Trilemma.   Obviously, trade would be for picks.  And would be hated.

[DirtyDeeds]

For years around here people have been saying all we need in Calgary is "average goaltending".

 

We got better than that 2 seasons ago and less than that this last season. 

 

The results compared to each other in hindsight are exactly correct or as you would expect.

 

I put the onus on the Goaltender coaching to pull us out of this huge drop in results.

 

 

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

p.s....I think @travel_dude is right to have reservations about letting Vladar go over Markstrom.

                         The times to have those reservations though were:

                1.  When we signed Markstrom to a mammoth team-killing contract

                2.  When we invested in Vladar rather than a higher-ceiling prospect for those minutes.

 

I think you will win this though @travel_dude.   We gonna need that triangular arena.

 

 

 

I think the biggest issue is we needed a goalie when we signed Markstrom.

We got Vladar, but there was no guarantee he would be better than a 20 game backup.

EDM would have signed Marky, so maybe that's a huge loss for them or a win.

Outscoring mistakes is what they do. 

[LouCifer]

I’m not a big fan of Markstrom, despite that I think he’ll have a bounceback season next year. If I were the new GM, I’d try to offload him regardless of what “Mr. Bean” said

 

A couple of trade destination ideas, especially considering the league’s perception that Calgary miscasts their players and that they’ll have much more success out of Calgary (see: Bennett, Brodie, Tkachuk, trends…)

1. Ottawa - Talbot is UFA. Debrincat isn’t re-signing there. Not sure what we’d get back. Their 12th overall pick? 
 

2. LA. I don’t think Korpisalo is the answer. Not sure about the return. 

 

3. WPG. With Hellybuck going into the final year of his contract, maybe we can pull off a goalie swap. Yes, highly unlikely, but hear my rationale.
- Helly made recent comments about his time to win a cup running out. *If* WPG feels or understands he might not re-sign after next season (and given that WPG - like us - has difficulty luring free agents), Markstrom being under contract could look *very* attractive to them for stability in net. 
- How does it help us? Well, we get 1 year of Hellybuck which would align with the final contract years of many of our players.
- Calgary wants a playoff run and I think Helly would give us at minimum league-average goaltending to get into the dance.

- Helly opens the door for Wolf to come in now that Markstrom’s contract is moved 

- Vladar’s position is ultimately decided by Helly at year’s end. 
 

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

While I somewhat agree that you need to ripen the fruit enough......

 

You can also let it rot if too long.... just saying

 

Flames have a poor history when carrying 3 goaltenders.. It simply does not work for any length of time. Not for game time, not for practice time. If you think he is ready then make a trade and open up a backup spot for him.

it is why I think on a short trip you can call him up and travel I'm with the big club. Throw him in and then send him back. He can be waived so that's easy. No need to carry 3 goalies for a long time. Not in that trap like a few years ago 

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

While I somewhat agree that you need to ripen the fruit enough......

 

You can also let it rot if too long.... just saying

 

Flames have a poor history when carrying 3 goaltenders.. It simply does not work for any length of time. Not for game time, not for practice time. If you think he is ready then make a trade and open up a backup spot for him.

 

We made some dubious choices that year we carried three.  Was it Irving or Ortio, I forget.  Just kidding I know it was Ortio.  Think we ran Hiller and Ramo at the same time.  I guess the difference is we don't have Sigalet as the goalie coach now.  

 

I do think you need to manage the risk a bit.  Start him early enough to know what you have and have time to make a trade if he's ready.  There really isn't anything other than one meaningless game against one of the worst teams in the league that gutted the team.  He did fine, but it's not a sure thing.

[robrob74]

I think we are worried about Goaltending and Wolf getting playing time for nothing. I think get him some NHL games next year - a dozen or so, if he is showing good that is.
 

If all three goalies are doing well then we have trade options. 

[oldschoolplayer]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

I think we are worried about Goaltending and Wolf getting playing time for nothing. I think get him some NHL games next year - a dozen or so, if he is showing good that is.
 

If all three goalies are doing well then we have trade options. 

It's simple what else is to be said? 

[oldschoolplayer]

4 hours ago, LouCifer said:

I’m not a big fan of Markstrom, despite that I think he’ll have a bounceback season next year. If I were the new GM, I’d try to offload him regardless of what “Mr. Bean” said

 

A couple of trade destination ideas, especially considering the league’s perception that Calgary miscasts their players and that they’ll have much more success out of Calgary (see: Bennett, Brodie, Tkachuk, trends…)

1. Ottawa - Talbot is UFA. Debrincat isn’t re-signing there. Not sure what we’d get back. Their 12th overall pick? 
 

2. LA. I don’t think Korpisalo is the answer. Not sure about the return. 

 

3. WPG. With Hellybuck going into the final year of his contract, maybe we can pull off a goalie swap. Yes, highly unlikely, but hear my rationale.
- Helly made recent comments about his time to win a cup running out. *If* WPG feels or understands he might not re-sign after next season (and given that WPG - like us - has difficulty luring free agents), Markstrom being under contract could look *very* attractive to them for stability in net. 
- How does it help us? Well, we get 1 year of Hellybuck which would align with the final contract years of many of our players.
- Calgary wants a playoff run and I think Helly would give us at minimum league-average goaltending to get into the dance.

- Helly opens the door for Wolf to come in now that Markstrom’s contract is moved 

- Vladar’s position is ultimately decided by Helly at year’s end. 
 

I expect a mass exodus of players

Probably won't recognize the team; all young guys and maybe a girl thrown in there. Just go with Vladar, and eat the loss on Markstrom. 

[DirtyDeeds]

20 minutes ago, oldschoolplayer said:

I expect a mass exodus of players

Probably won't recognize the team; all young guys and maybe a girl thrown in there. Just go with Vladar, and eat the loss on Markstrom. 

I would mention that all the unhappy players who said they were going to leave have mostly said they will stay now that Dutter is gone. The mass exodus you expect may be a lot smaller than you think.

 

Add to that thought an Owner who won't even allow the executive to say the Rebuild word let alone do it.....

 

Then there is the go between the Owners and the Hockey Operations who is under the impression that we are a very good team who just underperformed a bit.....

[oldschoolplayer]

Too many facets to assume. What I heard management saying was it's time for a big change, so that is what I expect. 

[travel_dude]

19 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I think we are worried about Goaltending and Wolf getting playing time for nothing. I think get him some NHL games next year - a dozen or so, if he is showing good that is.
 

If all three goalies are doing well then we have trade options. 

 

The exact number isn't even relevent.  Ther is zero risk to play him this season.  13F vs 14F on the club while we have 3 goalies.  The problem is that we have too many waiver eligible players unless we use the kids like Pelletier and Zary and Poirier.  Or we waive Stone after we sign him.  It was so stupid that we had to waive Valimaki.  There were much better options.  

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

The exact number isn't even relevent.  Ther is zero risk to play him this season.  13F vs 14F on the club while we have 3 goalies.  The problem is that we have too many waiver eligible players unless we use the kids like Pelletier and Zary and Poirier.  Or we waive Stone after we sign him.  It was so stupid that we had to waive Valimaki.  There were much better options.  

I guess that's the thing. I think it's the GM job to make it so that the players are waiver eligible and if not, get deals for them.

[zima]

On 5/8/2023 at 2:55 PM, travel_dude said:

 

The exact number isn't even relevent.  Ther is zero risk to play him this season.  13F vs 14F on the club while we have 3 goalies.  The problem is that we have too many waiver eligible players unless we use the kids like Pelletier and Zary and Poirier.  Or we waive Stone after we sign him.  It was so stupid that we had to waive Valimaki.  There were much better options.  

Ok agreed on Val but that is probably why BT has moved on I wouldn't be surprised if BT ends up with the yoytes another Risborough scenario of course just venting on that one but I am going to ask the question the mail bagged asked which of Val or marky would you trade to me it is a crazy option right now because Val didn't do to bad and Marky I think will jump back to his old forum and kill it this yr. But if not then it will be time to bring up Wwolf and let which ever goalie is sucking sit. Only because I have no Idea how Wolf will handle a long stint with the bigs although I believe he will take us to the cup another Kipper.

[oldschoolplayer]

22 minutes ago, zima said:

Ok agreed on Val but that is probably why BT has moved on I wouldn't be surprised if BT ends up with the yoytes another Risborough scenario of course just venting on that one but I am going to ask the question the mail bagged asked which of Val or marky would you trade to me it is a crazy option right now because Val didn't do to bad and Marky I think will jump back to his old forum and kill it this yr. But if not then it will be time to bring up Wwolf and let which ever goalie is sucking sit. Only because I have no Idea how Wolf will handle a long stint with the bigs although I believe he will take us to the cup another Kipper.

Keen points. Can't wait to give Wolf a go. I think Markstrom has had his chance. BT and Sutter hit the road so why should he get any more chances here? Hopefully he will go with BT somewhere. 

I was thinking Sutter would show up on the Yotes bench. 

Where ever he goes, I hope he gets more cups. Go Sutter! 

I don't like how the owners (I assume) threw the towel in on that team. I'm hoping for new owners; they shouldn't be in the hockey business. 

 

[zima]

So then lets get Reynolds to purchase this team I'm on board with that.