Goaltending

[travel_dude]

On 12/23/2018 at 6:23 AM, conundrumed said:

I agree 100%.

I like that BP uses injury terminology to spare the player.

I wonder the same with Bennett/Neal. Their games were getting stagnant.

Just my opinion, but healthy scratch isn’t nice connotations. I think BP said, we can call guys up, let’s take some time, look at some film and get you guys playing like we all know you can.

God knows Bennett was a bat out of hell against Tampa.

Coming off a minor injury. Hmmmm....

I smell a lot of team building going on here and my respect for how BP is doing it is going off the charts.

This is our last step imho. New coach earning the team’s respect.

 

If it's confidence, then he needs to work that out.  What I find strange is that his issues started last year and have continued this year.  Leading up to the injury, post injury, and this season struggles.  At times he's dialed in and is tracking the puck.  Maybe he was just lucky in those games where he was able to shut the door.  Possibly true, since we were limiting high danger chances.  

 

The confidence thing for the Philly game may be true, since he went about it (or BP put it that way) strangely having the goalie coach tell the head coach at the start of the period.  Don;t want to tell the coach you are losing it?  Fine.  Treat it as an injury where the GM needs to call up a backup?  That has cap implications.  Not dire ones, just risky.  We had to go with a bare minimum players with two suspended and Backlund injured.

 

Anyway, my gripe about starting goalies is that you should be going with the guy you have confidence in.  You can't always give the guy a chance to play his way out of a funk.  Giving Smith an extra game off before the holidays wouldn;t have been the end of the world.  Playing him and exposing the confidence issues again wasn't going to help.  So, now we have that same decision coming up.  WPG, VAN, SJS, DET/BOS, Philly.  Smith struggled against VAN and Philly.  BSD did well against WPG.  BOS and SJS were relatively low scoring games.   

[robrob74]

10 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

If it's confidence, then he needs to work that out.  What I find strange is that his issues started last year and have continued this year.  Leading up to the injury, post injury, and this season struggles.  At times he's dialed in and is tracking the puck.  Maybe he was just lucky in those games where he was able to shut the door.  Possibly true, since we were limiting high danger chances.  

 

The confidence thing for the Philly game may be true, since he went about it (or BP put it that way) strangely having the goalie coach tell the head coach at the start of the period.  Don;t want to tell the coach you are losing it?  Fine.  Treat it as an injury where the GM needs to call up a backup?  That has cap implications.  Not dire ones, just risky.  We had to go with a bare minimum players with two suspended and Backlund injured.

 

Anyway, my gripe about starting goalies is that you should be going with the guy you have confidence in.  You can't always give the guy a chance to play his way out of a funk.  Giving Smith an extra game off before the holidays wouldn;t have been the end of the world.  Playing him and exposing the confidence issues again wasn't going to help.  So, now we have that same decision coming up.  WPG, VAN, SJS, DET/BOS, Philly.  Smith struggled against VAN and Philly.  BSD did well against WPG.  BOS and SJS were relatively low scoring games.   

 

What I don’t like is how the radio guys on the Fan, Loubardius and Wills, argue that he has won the 6 games prior to the last loss. I didn’t feel very confident in those wins myself, but what do I know?

[travel_dude]

17 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

What I don’t like is how the radio guys on the Fan, Loubardius and Wills, argue that he has won the 6 games prior to the last loss. I didn’t feel very confident in those wins myself, but what do I know?

 

Wills is about the most annoying guy I have ever heard.  I don't care what he thinks.  Maybe I just don't like him, but I rarely agree with what he says.

[Thebrewcrew]

Maybe Wills is just an optimistic person, I can’t say as I don’t know him but I find him to be a homer. Like others have mentioned yeah he won 6 straight but he got a lot of goal support. IMO I still think he has yet to turn a corner and I would give Rittich the net to run with

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Maybe Wills is just an optimistic person, I can’t say as I don’t know him but I find him to be a homer. Like others have mentioned yeah he won 6 straight but he got a lot of goal support. IMO I still think he has yet to turn a corner and I would give Rittich the net to run with

 

They do call it a bad game when they see it. The thing about hi. Though is he’s so touchy-feely with his love for every player that ever played. So when he’s calling it as it is, I tend to believe it because he’s generally very positive about everything else.

17 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Wills is about the most annoying guy I have ever heard.  I don't care what he thinks.  Maybe I just don't like him, but I rarely agree with what he says.

 

I tend to agree. He talks too much for a radio guy when the game play by ply description matters more than who he’s watched as a Bantum player at age 5. Over exaggerating but... 

 

i wont take what they say away from a live game. Like anything else, I guess results matter, but I haven’t been excited about Smith’s wins in those 6 straight. You turn around and look at the past and what is on paper erases the doubts. I am not that practical. Smith still needs a ton of work; count me in as not convinced.

[CheersMan]

BSD has single handily defused any goalie controversy, if there was one. With a SA% and GAA in top 3 in league he may have entered a territory where no Flame goalie has ever been, not even Kipper. Manage his starts moving forward and lets go win the division....plus some.

[redfire11]

When did teams in the NHL and we as fans determine that a NHL starter goalie couldn't play a LARGE majority of the games and be effective.

Martin Brodeur between 95-08 averaged well over 70 games a year

Dominik Hasek some years played over 70

Patrick Roy averaged well over 60 games a year

 

Are our goalies facing more shots? NO

Are our goalies being run into like they used to? NO

 

So why is there the impression that they need time off?

Are there stats that prove that a goalie only playing 40 - 50 games a season plays better? (couldn't find any)

 

 

[JTech780]

12 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

When did teams in the NHL and we as fans determine that a NHL starter goalie couldn't play a LARGE majority of the games and be effective.

Martin Brodeur between 95-08 averaged well over 70 games a year

Dominik Hasek some years played over 70

Patrick Roy averaged well over 60 games a year

 

Are our goalies facing more shots? NO

Are our goalies being run into like they used to? NO

 

So why is there the impression that they need time off?

Are there stats that prove that a goalie only playing 40 - 50 games a season plays better? (couldn't find any)

 

 

 

The 3 goalies you listed are all hall of famers and quite possibly the 3 best goalies to ever play the game, not sure those are fair comparisons to anyone playing today. 

 

Only Corey Crawford played more than 55 games (57) and won the Stanley Cup from the last 5 years. 

 

It's all about making sure you put your goaltender in the best situation to win and giving your team the best chance to win when it matters most. 

 

Look at the years we had with Kipper, the one year he took us to the Cup Final he barely played in the regular, after that we over played him and he was drained when the playoffs came around, if we got that far.

[cross16]

I don't really buy into the Kipper got worn out idea. He was routinely excellent in the playoffs and the 2 years he wasn't were the years under Keenan where he wasn't great in the regular season either and even then I still thought he was good in the playoffs. In 08-09 the Flames went into the playoffs with basically no good healthy dmen and still found a way to push Chicago to 6 games.  But I also agree with Jtech were are talking about the elite of elite here so i'ts not a good comparison, and for my money Kipper was a Hall of fame level goalie as a Flame. (but he'll never get into the Hall but that's a separate discussion).

 

Depends on the goalie and in the situation. Typically only about 10-12 goalies play 60 or more games so it's not the majority. But here is the bigger reason I think it's something for Rittich specifically:

 

23

48

32

33

 

Rittich's GP total the last 4 years. Big jump if that's goes to 55-60. 

[Carty]

Rittich is only 26 years old and is healthy...   He can handle more games...   At this point the Flames just need a backup that can step up if/when needed. or when Rittich could use a breather or for a B2B scenario...   Smith could still be that guy if he can get back in the groove and be dependable, and if he can't, then the Flame will have to go shopping...   I have no doubt that they already have a list of potential candidates in case the need should arise...

 

Rittich could turn out to be elite, and right now he deserves/needs the chance to do that...   As others have already pointed out, he is close to the top of the league for SV% and GAA, and he is within a whisker of being right at the top...

 

 

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I don't really buy into the Kipper got worn out idea. He was routinely excellent in the playoffs and the 2 years he wasn't were the years under Keenan where he wasn't great in the regular season either and even then I still thought he was good in the playoffs. In 08-09 the Flames went into the playoffs with basically no good healthy dmen and still found a way to push Chicago to 6 games.  But I also agree with Jtech were are talking about the elite of elite here so i'ts not a good comparison, and for my money Kipper was a Hall of fame level goalie as a Flame. (but he'll never get into the Hall but that's a separate discussion).

 

Depends on the goalie and in the situation. Typically only about 10-12 goalies play 60 or more games so it's not the majority. But here is the bigger reason I think it's something for Rittich specifically:

 

23

48

32

33

 

Rittich's GP total the last 4 years. Big jump if that's goes to 55-60. 

 

I heard that the starters usually practice and prepare differently than the back up. If Rittich can play positionally sound in net then he may not need to expel the kind of energy an athletic goalie has to to make the saves. Manage practices as a starter, and ease him up to more games. 

 

I think, as we talked about it in the past, that the Flames could’ve done a disservice to him by limiting him to such lower numbered starts. 

 

For me, he was clearly the better goalie when he and Gillies came up. Numbers may not prove it, but from what I saw, Rittich has always made me feel more confident in him due to the way he plays, his mechanics.

 

i think it is a matter of keeping Rittich in this zone. 

[cross16]

So just to clarify, If I were Peters my aim would be to start Rittich in approximately 60% of the games remaining would which get him to about 47-48 games played over the course of the season which I also think its a pretty optimal number given his workload in past years. Obviously subject to change given game play etc.

 

So I'm all for treating him like a starter I just don't think it warrants an elite level usage like 70-80% of starts. 

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

So just to clarify, If I were Peters my aim would be to start Rittich in approximately 60% of the games remaining would which get him to about 47-48 games played over the course of the season which I also think its a pretty optimal number given his workload in past years. Obviously subject to change given game play etc.

 

So I'm all for treating him like a starter I just don't think it warrants an elite level usage like 70-80% of starts. 

 

Check.  Rittich has started 18.  Give hime 30 more.  14 for a backup.

That's all well and good.

Except, that assumes we have a reliable goalie to play the other remaining 14.

Maybe Smith is that guy, but they need to play him that way, much like they have the last little bit.

[conundrumed]

I admit that I was a bit worried to see how Rittich would come out of the break.

He came out of it like it never happened.

There weren’t many that thought Rittich would be capable in the preseason, prolly even within the org.

He’s starting to make a name for himself and teams will start responding so that’ll be the next challenge. But imho, he doesn’t really have any real weaknesses as he relies on the science of the position.

Without being a homer, I think Rittich is one of the funnest stories in the league this year.

But I also credit Smith for being there for Rittich too. While the fans turn it into a drama, Smith hasn’t done that at all.

 

The pre-goal celly for JG denotes a kid in a candy store. I think that enthusiasm becomes infectious. Highlight of the year.

And typical deadpan, “well I knew he was going to score”.

When they’re having fun we’re having fun.

It’s been a long time coming.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I admit that I was a bit worried to see how Rittich would come out of the break.

He came out of it like it never happened.

There weren’t many that thought Rittich would be capable in the preseason, prolly even within the org.

He’s starting to make a name for himself and teams will start responding so that’ll be the next challenge. But imho, he doesn’t really have any real weaknesses as he relies on the science of the position.

Without being a homer, I think Rittich is one of the funnest stories in the league this year.

But I also credit Smith for being there for Rittich too. While the fans turn it into a drama, Smith hasn’t done that at all.

 

 

I think we all had some questions when he was left in CGY for pre-season.  

Maybe that helped him more than anything to start.

For the most part, it seems like BP has been trying to get Smith pumped up by going to him when we think otherwise.

STL was a great example.  Hard to watch a 2nd game against them with Smith in nets; 5 GA in first fame and 3 in 2nd game.

His first start after the "injury".

 

I don;t know the best way of getting Smith back to starter quality, if there's even a chance.

He's not inspiring confidence right now, while Rittich is.

Maybe there are a few games where you don;t have to worry about the other team and can limit shots.

What are those?

We've been bleeding too many high danger chances and the goalie needs to make those stops.

Rittich does and Smith doesn;t.  That's the fax jack.

Blame the D or the cheating forwards, but we can;t always help out the stryggling goalie.

 

I get the sense that BT is looking at Smith with the same eyes that saw Elliott fall from grace.

If he doesn;t turn his game around STAT, BT will be looking for a backup.

We've come so far from last year to have another season dictated by poor finishing goaltending.

Gillies isn;t the answer if Smith falters.

Rittich can make a believer out of the most fickle fans, but he needs help.

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think we all had some questions when he was left in CGY for pre-season.  

Maybe that helped him more than anything to start.

For the most part, it seems like BP has been trying to get Smith pumped up by going to him when we think otherwise.

STL was a great example.  Hard to watch a 2nd game against them with Smith in nets; 5 GA in first fame and 3 in 2nd game.

His first start after the "injury".

 

I don;t know the best way of getting Smith back to starter quality, if there's even a chance.

He's not inspiring confidence right now, while Rittich is.

Maybe there are a few games where you don;t have to worry about the other team and can limit shots.

What are those?

We've been bleeding too many high danger chances and the goalie needs to make those stops.

Rittich does and Smith doesn;t.  That's the fax jack.

Blame the D or the cheating forwards, but we can;t always help out the stryggling goalie.

 

I get the sense that BT is looking at Smith with the same eyes that saw Elliott fall from grace.

If he doesn;t turn his game around STAT, BT will be looking for a backup.

We've come so far from last year to have another season dictated by poor finishing goaltending.

Gillies isn;t the answer if Smith falters.

Rittich can make a believer out of the most fickle fans, but he needs help.

Smith is fine as a back up right now

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Smith is fine as a back up right now

 

Yes, his last two starts were awesme.

[MAC331]

30 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Yes, his last two starts were awesme.

Barely even remember them so they couldn't have been that bad. The team is winning, Rittich has been stellar, I'm not to worried about Smith right now. Take a look around the entire NHL and tell me a goalie that is playing with any consistency. Seriously the game has changed so much to the shooters advantage, games like our one with TB which was epic had each goalie give up 5 goals each before a winner was declared. Fluke goals are everywhere every game, Smith has allowed his share but he as also made a lot of great saves at the right times to help win some games.

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think we all had some questions when he was left in CGY for pre-season.  

Maybe that helped him more than anything to start.

For the most part, it seems like BP has been trying to get Smith pumped up by going to him when we think otherwise.

STL was a great example.  Hard to watch a 2nd game against them with Smith in nets; 5 GA in first fame and 3 in 2nd game.

His first start after the "injury".

 

I don;t know the best way of getting Smith back to starter quality, if there's even a chance.

He's not inspiring confidence right now, while Rittich is.

Maybe there are a few games where you don;t have to worry about the other team and can limit shots.

What are those?

We've been bleeding too many high danger chances and the goalie needs to make those stops.

Rittich does and Smith doesn;t.  That's the fax jack.

Blame the D or the cheating forwards, but we can;t always help out the stryggling goalie.

 

I get the sense that BT is looking at Smith with the same eyes that saw Elliott fall from grace.

If he doesn;t turn his game around STAT, BT will be looking for a backup.

We've come so far from last year to have another season dictated by poor finishing goaltending.

Gillies isn;t the answer if Smith falters.

Rittich can make a believer out of the most fickle fans, but he needs help.

 

 

I think the way to go is play Smith the way they did in his 6 wins. Play him like a back up who plays the easier teams. They rave about his six wins, but forget to mention who they played and how they played and yet Smith still let in som ugly ones. 

 

But go that way. Make sure he’s able to get some wins.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I think the way to go is play Smith the way they did in his 6 wins. Play him like a back up who plays the easier teams. They rave about his six wins, but forget to mention who they played and how they played and yet Smith still let in som ugly ones. 

 

But go that way. Make sure he’s able to get some wins.

 

I don't disagree, but out of the coming games, what are the easy games:

vs VAN

vs SJS

@DET (B2B1)

@BOS (B2B2)

@PHI

@CHI

vs COL

 

Every one of those teams can be tough to handle and shut down.  If you want to get Smith going, the road may be the best place to start.  DET might be the first game I would start him for that reason.  PHI will be a bad nightmare for him and CHI is startng to play better.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't disagree, but out of the coming games, what are the easy games:

vs VAN

vs SJS

@DET (B2B1)

@BOS (B2B2)

@PHI

@CHI

vs COL

 

Every one of those teams can be tough to handle and shut down.  If you want to get Smith going, the road may be the best place to start.  DET might be the first game I would start him for that reason.  PHI will be a bad nightmare for him and CHI is startng to play better.

 

Play him in B2B1 then Rittich in B2B2.

 

maybe you go back to him in Phi or Chi?

 

i think I’d play Rittich 2 games on then 1 off, or every 2 of 3? I dunno. It’s a fools’ game to guess. 

[travel_dude]

36 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Play him in B2B1 then Rittich in B2B2.

 

maybe you go back to him in Phi or Chi?

 

i think I’d play Rittich 2 games on then 1 off, or every 2 of 3? I dunno. It’s a fools’ game to guess. 

 

I don't even know if BP has a plan or is just reacting to what he sees.

With tonight Rittich will have played 2 in a row.

He should start against SJS.

 

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't even know if BP has a plan or is just reacting to what he sees.

With tonight Rittich will have played 2 in a row.

He should start against SJS.

 

 

I can’t see how Smith just loses it mentally. I get goaltending is in the head. But I wonder if the injuries he’s had doesn’t allow him to move the same way? 

 

He was so good last year, and from the times we’ve played him before, he was always sound. I think that it’s age, and the injuries, and that is hitting the mental side of him.

[travel_dude]

21 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I can’t see how Smith just loses it mentally. I get goaltending is in the head. But I wonder if the injuries he’s had doesn’t allow him to move the same way? 

 

He was so good last year, and from the times we’ve played him before, he was always sound. I think that it’s age, and the injuries, and that is hitting the mental side of him.

 

FYI, Rittich to start against San Jose.

[robrob74]

45 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

FYI, Rittich to start against San Jose.

 

That’s  good! I have 0 faith in Smith. If Smith is so good in the room, maybe he can become an assistant goalie coach.