Goaltending

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

Unfortunately, that likely sums up our situation. I find it difficult to believe that Treliving would stake his job on our current goaltending. Maybe he comes up with more magic this summer. 

 

Man, I am going to be choked if Eddie Lack comes up big this year.

 

You really think Lack will beat out Kinkaid or Schneider for a backup spot?  He's depth for NJ.  Minors for him.

 

I agree with your other sentiments, though.  Smith/Rittich start to the season (assuming that is the pair) will determine BT's timeline for replacing Smith.  He may already have had those discussions with another GM and is holding off right now.  I would be surprised if he doesn't have a plan B.  IN some ways, that is the annoying thing about BT; he's not agile in making deals.  His trades are usually based on weeks or months of talking.  Grubauer could have been had, but it seemed a quick decision.  Sure, we didn't have a 2nd but could have offered a roster player and bought out Orpik as well. 

 

 

 

[robrob74]

13 hours ago, 7wit said:

 

I hope you’re right. If it doesn’t work out this year though, then what? I guess you trade for a Bobrovsky?

 

That might be the case. I guess the hope is we are in it until the trade deadline, and if we are just on the fence we can trade for reinforcements in net then? The hope is not giving up the farm, and possibly a younger player steps up their play allowing us to use them or another solid piece in a trade at the time?

[cccsberg]

23 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

Unfortunately, that likely sums up our situation. I find it difficult to believe that Treliving would stake his job on our current goaltending. Maybe he comes up with more magic this summer. 

 

Man, I am going to be choked if Eddie Lack comes up big this year.

Why in the world would you be choked?  Lack was beyond terrible last year and HAD to go.  Players fluctuate all the time but how long can you hang on to a complete failure?  I guess you’d also be choked if Rittich and Gillies turn the corner and become consistent or amazing goalies?  Those two looked like All-stars compared to Lack last year....

[Thebrewcrew]

Smith was very good last year up until the all star break. After that he looked to be overworked and his play suffered even before his injury.

 

This year he needs to be better managed, give the back up a bit more action. Ideally start Smith 55-60 games tops. Let’s not forget how good Rittich was until February. Some of you even called him the goalie of the future at times here... both him and Gillies should be better this year after truly getting their feet wet at this level last year.

 

After this year though we need to find another goalie. At 37, probably the best move to let Smith go. Often times starting goalies aren’t that sought after in UFA so if we want we could target a Varlamov or Bobrovsky if they reach UFA and there’s our starter for the next few years 

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

This year he needs to be better managed, give the back up a bit more action

 

Managed by who?  The goalie coach?  The head coach?  The player?

Lack wasn't used early enough, and when he finally got the start he was useless.

Rittich got limited starts, even when he showed he was playing well.

Before that, it was the 3 headed monster.

 

We can banter back and forth about how many starts Smith should get, but it comes down to the coach making choices.

 

[Cowtownguy]

On July 29, 2018 at 10:20 AM, cccsberg said:

Why in the world would you be choked?  Lack was beyond terrible last year and HAD to go.  Players fluctuate all the time but how long can you hang on to a complete failure?  I guess you’d also be choked if Rittich and Gillies turn the corner and become consistent or amazing goalies?  Those two looked like All-stars compared to Lack last year....

I wish him well of course. I was more wishing that he had turned it around with the Flames.

[The_People1]

On 7/29/2018 at 11:51 AM, travel_dude said:

 

We can banter back and forth about how many starts Smith should get, but it comes down to the coach making choices.

 

 

I forgot which coach or which team does this but when the season begins, they would sit down with both goalies with the schedule at hand and then together, tell the backup exactly when he will start.

 

It could be all back to back games, or to give the starter a good rest before a tough stretch of games.  So, once the season begins, the backup can prepare for all the games he will be starting and there are no surprises and let downs.  Stick to the agreed schedule.

[travel_dude]

53 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I forgot which coach or which team does this but when the season begins, they would sit down with both goalies with the schedule at hand and then together, tell the backup exactly when he will start.

 

It could be all back to back games, or to give the starter a good rest before a tough stretch of games.  So, once the season begins, the backup can prepare for all the games he will be starting and there are no surprises and let downs.  Stick to the agreed schedule.

 

Hartley said that, but then it was a coach decision.  Then it was win-and-you're-in.  It sounded last year like Smith decided his own starts.

[phoenix66]

59 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I forgot which coach or which team does this but when the season begins, they would sit down with both goalies with the schedule at hand and then together, tell the backup exactly when he will start.

 

It could be all back to back games, or to give the starter a good rest before a tough stretch of games.  So, once the season begins, the backup can prepare for all the games he will be starting and there are no surprises and let downs.  Stick to the agreed schedule.

This was Nashville last year .. read that a few weeks ago .

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

This was Nashville last year .. read that a few weeks ago .

It's the way to go imo. Give Smith a milder workload over the first 60 vs the last 20.

Tell him beforehand, I'm sure if you leave it open he'll take everything. Put him on a schedule.

[travel_dude]

23 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

It's the way to go imo. Give Smith a milder workload over the first 60 vs the last 20.

Tell him beforehand, I'm sure if you leave it open he'll take everything. Put him on a schedule.

 

 

I would say there's always room for adjustment.

If teams didn;t make a single change in the summer then you could probably do that more effectively.

You scout the team leading up to the game and pass on to the team how to play them.

 

The only issue I have is that a goalie has runs where they are feeling it, and you want to take advantage.  Just don;t go too long.

Our coaches seemed to have the play until you lose two in a row mindset.

With Smith, it was play until we have a B2B and you are a little tired and you have lost recently.

 

I agree that Smith needs to be fresher in the later stages of the season.  At most play 40/60 then 10/22.  Give him a tuneup game just before playoffs.

All this depends on having the right guy backing him up.  If Rittich can't handle 20 early on, then you need to find someone who can.  I'm not even that comfortable with Smith/Rittich, but it doesn;t look like we have a choice.  IMHO, we need to have Rittich work with a trainer in the summer.  As soon as he gets back off his honeymoon.  Too bad his arbitration hearing was set for the same day as his wedding.  That bites.  Maybe why they settled.  

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

It's the way to go imo. Give Smith a milder workload over the first 60 vs the last 20.

Tell him beforehand, I'm sure if you leave it open he'll take everything. Put him on a schedule.

 

It's pretty tough to do with an injury prone starter and a limited backup. 

[Cowtownguy]

13 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

I would say there's always room for adjustment.

If teams didn;t make a single change in the summer then you could probably do that more effectively.

You scout the team leading up to the game and pass on to the team how to play them.

 

The only issue I have is that a goalie has runs where they are feeling it, and you want to take advantage.  Just don;t go too long.

Our coaches seemed to have the play until you lose two in a row mindset.

With Smith, it was play until we have a B2B and you are a little tired and you have lost recently.

 

I agree that Smith needs to be fresher in the later stages of the season.  At most play 40/60 then 10/22.  Give him a tuneup game just before playoffs.

All this depends on having the right guy backing him up.  If Rittich can't handle 20 early on, then you need to find someone who can.  I'm not even that comfortable with Smith/Rittich, but it doesn;t look like we have a choice.  IMHO, we need to have Rittich work with a trainer in the summer.  As soon as he gets back off his honeymoon.  Too bad his arbitration hearing was set for the same day as his wedding.  That bites.  Maybe why they settled.  

Agreed. Another issue that I think needs to be addressed is this sakamoto ideology that you play regardless of your health. It was not appropriate for Monahan to be pulled from play as he was this last year. You run the risk of creating more serious physical problems. Smith is among this generation of players that believes you go in no matter what. I really think that needs to change. Having a flexible schedule may be the way to go. You are also correct that you want to take advantage of when a player/goalie is feeling like he can do no wrong.

[rickross]

So...what is the plan in net moving forward? Do we extend Smith one more year until we know for sure if Rittich/Gillies are ready to handle the workload? Or do we go and spend $ in the FA pool or acquire a #1 goalie via trade again? I don't believe there are many options in free agency and I don't see Tre wanting to part with anymore high draft picks/prospects via trade. 

 

Could it it be possible that Rittich and/or Gillies could be valid NHL starters after this season? It seems like a stretch but you never know. Rittich showed flashes at times while Gillies struggled a bit more. At this point I don't know how we can ever consider ourselves contenders without a proper starter in the organization. Smith is good but he's aging and will get injured again. There doesn't seem like there are many if any viable plays at the moment, I guess we just wait and see if Rittich, Gillies or Parsons pan out?

[MAC331]

2 hours ago, rickross said:

So...what is the plan in net moving forward? Do we extend Smith one more year until we know for sure if Rittich/Gillies are ready to handle the workload? Or do we go and spend $ in the FA pool or acquire a #1 goalie via trade again? I don't believe there are many options in free agency and I don't see Tre wanting to part with anymore high draft picks/prospects via trade. 

 

Could it it be possible that Rittich and/or Gillies could be valid NHL starters after this season? It seems like a stretch but you never know. Rittich showed flashes at times while Gillies struggled a bit more. At this point I don't know how we can ever consider ourselves contenders without a proper starter in the organization. Smith is good but he's aging and will get injured again. There doesn't seem like there are many if any viable plays at the moment, I guess we just wait and see if Rittich, Gillies or Parsons pan out?

Now is the time to find out what we have in Rittich and Gilles

[conundrumed]

On 7/30/2018 at 11:36 PM, kehatch said:

 

It's pretty tough to do with an injury prone starter and a limited backup. 

Regardless, it has to be managed.

The alternative we seem to run with is every game is a must win and it has to be Smith.

It would be nice to get away from that and have Smith max out at 60.

No reason Rittich can't play 25-odd.

You don't gain confidence in uncertainties by ignoring them. Rittich isn't Eddie Lack.

He looked great as a backup. Gave him scant starts, Smith gets hurt and expecting him to go alpha is unrealistic.

My personal opinion is Rittich deserves more credit than he's given.

 

The skaters on the other hand...if you're going to be a contender, you win games in spite of goaltending. Occasionally....

Not, never.

They have more to prove than Rittich imho.

Good teams get good goaltending, bad teams that don't know how to score, notsomuch.

Niemi won a Cup for god sakes. He's just as good now as he was then.

21 skaters definitely flattered him.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Regardless, it has to be managed.

The alternative we seem to run with is every game is a must win and it has to be Smith.

It would be nice to get away from that and have Smith max out at 60.

No reason Rittich can't play 25-odd.

You don't gain confidence in uncertainties by ignoring them. Rittich isn't Eddie Lack.

He looked great as a backup. Gave him scant starts, Smith gets hurt and expecting him to go alpha is unrealistic.

My personal opinion is Rittich deserves more credit than he's given.

 

The skaters on the other hand...if you're going to be a contender, you win games in spite of goaltending. Occasionally....

Not, never.

They have more to prove than Rittich imho.

Good teams get good goaltending, bad teams that don't know how to score, notsomuch.

Niemi won a Cup for god sakes. He's just as good now as he was then.

21 skaters definitely flattered him.

 

I agree. 

When the team learns to play a complete game I will then critique The goalies.

[cccsberg]

22 hours ago, rickross said:

So...what is the plan in net moving forward? Do we extend Smith one more year until we know for sure if Rittich/Gillies are ready to handle the workload? Or do we go and spend $ in the FA pool or acquire a #1 goalie via trade again? I don't believe there are many options in free agency and I don't see Tre wanting to part with anymore high draft picks/prospects via trade. 

 

Could it it be possible that Rittich and/or Gillies could be valid NHL starters after this season? It seems like a stretch but you never know. Rittich showed flashes at times while Gillies struggled a bit more. At this point I don't know how we can ever consider ourselves contenders without a proper starter in the organization. Smith is good but he's aging and will get injured again. There doesn't seem like there are many if any viable plays at the moment, I guess we just wait and see if Rittich, Gillies or Parsons pan out?

Both Rittich and Gillies COULD settle in as starters, or 1A/1B starters after next season.  If that doesn't happen then all bets are off and someone like Bobrovsky or Varlamov are the targets.  Of course, we could give Smith a 1yr deal as well if he is playing well.

[kehatch]

10 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I agree. 

When the team learns to play a complete game I will then critique The goalies.

 

Then you will be too late.

 

You are correct that it's a mistake to evaluate the goaltending without considering the play in front. It is also bad to cherry pick the good games and ignore the bad (which people do all the time) or give the goalies a pass because of the team in front of them (which is what you are doing). 

 

The Flames were not the worst defensive team in the NHL last season. But over 82 games they had average goaltending from the starter and poor goaltending from the backups. There is little reason to believe it will be better this season, and given the age / injury to our starter there is a legitimate concern it could be worse. 

[MAC331]

15 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Regardless, it has to be managed.

The alternative we seem to run with is every game is a must win and it has to be Smith.

It would be nice to get away from that and have Smith max out at 60.

No reason Rittich can't play 25-odd.

You don't gain confidence in uncertainties by ignoring them. Rittich isn't Eddie Lack.

He looked great as a backup. Gave him scant starts, Smith gets hurt and expecting him to go alpha is unrealistic.

My personal opinion is Rittich deserves more credit than he's given.

 

The skaters on the other hand...if you're going to be a contender, you win games in spite of goaltending. Occasionally....

Not, never.

They have more to prove than Rittich imho.

Good teams get good goaltending, bad teams that don't know how to score, notsomuch.

Niemi won a Cup for god sakes. He's just as good now as he was then.

21 skaters definitely flattered him.

I would even use 50 games as a target for Smith within a game plan for our Goalies. I would even work in Gilles to the equation later in the season

[rickross]

3 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Then you will be too late.

 

You are correct that it's a mistake to evaluate the goaltending without considering the play in front. It is also bad to cherry pick the good games and ignore the bad (which people do all the time) or give the goalies a pass because of the team in front of them (which is what you are doing). 

 

The Flames were not the worst defensive team in the NHL last season. But over 82 games they had average goaltending from the starter and poor goaltending from the backups. There is little reason to believe it will be better this season, and given the age / injury to our starter there is a legitimate concern it could be worse. 

It's a problem. This team can't take the next step without a starting goaltender. It's just wasting precious term and valued cap with each season that passes. We'd likely have been a top 5 drafting team had it not been for Mike Smith most nights...I  actually believe in Rittich right now to provide sufficient backup goaltending, Gillies I'm  I think needs more seasoning. 

 

Ive said it from the start of the rebuild, it's not complete until you have your goalie!...and the search continues for the Flames. Signing Bobrosvky or Varlamov will be expensive and risky at their age. I'm sure Treliving inquired about Hellebuyck a few seasons back when he was considered on the bubble by many. 

 

I guess the play us hoping Rittich becomes the next Kipper or Gillies the new J.Quick....

[MAC331]

11 minutes ago, rickross said:

It's a problem. This team can't take the next step without a starting goaltender. It's just wasting precious term and valued cap with each season that passes. We'd likely have been a top 5 drafting team had it not been for Mike Smith most nights...I  actually believe in Rittich right now to provide sufficient backup goaltending, Gillies I'm  I think needs more seasoning. 

 

Ive said it from the start of the rebuild, it's not complete until you have your goalie!...and the search continues for the Flames. Signing Bobrosvky or Varlamov will be expensive and risky at their age. I'm sure Treliving inquired about Hellebuyck a few seasons back when he was considered on the bubble by many. 

 

I guess the play us hoping Rittich becomes the next Kipper or Gillies the new J.Quick....

You can't just go pluck one of these Goalies off a tree either. Both Rittich and Gilles showed flashes of being very capable NHL goalies last season. The only way to find out if those flashes translate into regularity is by providing the opportunities for them to play with the team. I don't think we should be afraid to go there at least with this coming season.

[rickross]

8 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I would even use 50 games as a target for Smith within a game plan for our Goalies. I would even work in Gilles to the equation later in the season

It's so hard to do though...what if your goalie is riding a hot streak?...do you risk throwing him out of rhythm throughout the season?  Goalie confidence is such a tricky thing to manage. Some goalies need to work themselves back into their "zone" or sometimes they need those quick rebound games to stay sharp and maintain confidence. It's tough to peg a target on goalies but you do have to manage it somehow, especially with guys like Smith. 

 

If Rittich and Gillies can't prove their worth then it could leave few options where we part with another prospect like Gillies himself, and/or a player like Bennett, Lazar. Maybe you package a deal for a guy like Schneider?.. good goalie and has experience playing in front of both conferences...he's seen a lot of shooters. He's also injury prone and already 32 though. 

 

 

[rickross]

4 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

You can't just go pluck one of these Goalies off a tree either. Both Rittich and Gilles showed flashes of being very capable NHL goalies last season. The only way to find out if those flashes translate into regularity is by providing the opportunities for them to play with the team. I don't think we should be afraid to go there at least with this coming season.

I think everyone is all for giving Rittich and Gillies their opportunities, it's just what happens if it doesn't work out for whatever myriad of reasons? What are our options?..we all know you can't win a Cup without a top goalie. U can't expect this team to consistently win and play with confidence with their goalie situation still in flux. I think one of these goalies steps up this season but I could easily be wrong. We could very well have 2 decent backups in Rittich and Gillies, if that is the case...realistically what can and will the Flames do to finally get their goalie?

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Then you will be too late.

 

You are correct that it's a mistake to evaluate the goaltending without considering the play in front. It is also bad to cherry pick the good games and ignore the bad (which people do all the time) or give the goalies a pass because of the team in front of them (which is what you are doing). 

 

The Flames were not the worst defensive team in the NHL last season. But over 82 games they had average goaltending from the starter and poor goaltending from the backups. There is little reason to believe it will be better this season, and given the age / injury to our starter there is a legitimate concern it could be worse. 

 

But it is the chances we give up. You can look at stats all you want but it doesn’t tell the story of when you give up a bad high quality scoring chance on a bonehead play by our team. We compare to other teams all we want but if we keep giving up those scoring chances at bad times, it’s going to cost you. 

 

Its not not getting the puck out, or making a simple play or doing that at the other team’s blue line. 

 

Not saying Elliott is the greatest, but a good example of a goalie who had phenomenal numbers before coming. I said it then, we will see what he can do with this team in front of him. He was better than average before and ended up below average after. 

 

I think what you’re asking for is just, but where can you get that when we make goalies look even worse than they are?