Goaltending

[JTech780]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I take it that window is gone now?  For free, he would have been a good pickup for sure.

 

Isn't he like, less than an inch separation from Parsons?

 

Good question on the goalie size thing.   I feel like when the pads and such got bigger, it benefited the larger goalies more.  I'm not sure on that either.  But the larger the goalie, the more square footage of the net they can eliminate with equipment.   It might actually level the playing field?  Either way, I don't see 6'0 as undersized.  I see 5'9 as undersized, personally.

 

That window is long gone.

 

He is an inch shorter than Parsons, and I am not 100% comfortable with Parsons size, I prefer goalies to be a tad bigger than 6'1". 

 

Goalies listed below 6'2" generally are considered to be undersized nowadays.

[Flyerfan52]

48 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

There is a brief window for players who go undrafted to sign with teams after the draft and before they go to their junior team. Schneider went undrafted, then was invited to Flames camp and impressed enough to get a contract before he was sent back to junior.

 

Vehvilainen went undrafted last year. He is a undersized and with the way goalie equipment is starting to shrink, I wonder if that is going to effect smaller goalies more. 

Same thing happened with Phillipe Myers. 30 teams passed on him 7 times in 2015.After a training camp invite he was signed by the Flyers only 3 months later.

It sounds like getting a pre-pick for the next draft as most juniors do re-enter the draft. Few work out but it's a no cost chance.

[MAC331]

13 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

That window is long gone.

 

He is an inch shorter than Parsons, and I am not 100% comfortable with Parsons size, I prefer goalies to be a tad bigger than 6'1". 

 

Goalies listed below 6'2" generally are considered to be undersized nowadays.

I think the future of goalies will be in their agility and mental aspects of their game. Size will be a bonus if they have the other 2 assets.

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I think the future of goalies will be in their agility and mental aspects of their game. Size will be a bonus if they have the other 2 assets.

You made me think of Ken Dryden. Only after getting his degree did he decide to play pro hockey. Being a student of pretty well everything he watched Tretiak work on his reflexes in the hall way when they were both in the '72 Summit Series (aka Super Series) & incorporated it into his own training.

Forgive my attempt @ coining a phrase but I'd say he "trained & brained" his way to 5 Vezina trophies & 6 SCs. Hard to believe he only spent 8 years as an NHLer.

 

He had impressive size (especially for his era) but I see his targeted training regimen ( in a day when players didn't train during the summer so training camp was a quick boot camp to shed that beer muscle) as the biggest reason for his success.

[AlbertaBoy12]

So on another note I was listening to edmonton radio today, and they were talking with a goaltending "expert" from a magazine, who has lots of connections. He was pointing out how bad the work load of a backup can be very difficult, and mentally challenging, some guys just arent up to it. He pointed out that as a backup you have your work with the goalie coach before practice, then practice where you get peppered with shots, and then usually there is shooting drills/specials teams work where you are also peppered with shots. He was pointing out the workload of the average backup, and I never thought about it when I played but you are a glorified shooter tutor, and it can be mentally challenging. Im really wondering if thats why we saw the downfall of ortio last year, cause I really dont know if jordan sigalet is that good at ruining goalies. I wonder if it was just the weird workload ortio had and the lack of confidence that crept into his game.

[conundrumed]

Did they happen to mention overplaying Talbot?

Are the comments regarding Gustavsson or Broissoit?

Edmonton currently has a break, like we do next week.

If Talbot gets injured anytime soon, they are screwed...

And that's what you get from Edmonton radio

[AlbertaBoy12]

21 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Did they happen to mention overplaying Talbot?

Are the comments regarding Gustavsson or Broissoit?

Edmonton currently has a break, like we do next week.

If Talbot gets injured anytime soon, they are screwed...

And that's what you get from Edmonton radio

They did bring that up.

 

The guy was commenting how after talbot they dont really have any known NHL talent in the back up sensem, brossoit hasent looked great when he has played minus the one game against us where he was average at best. Im curious to see what happens come playoffs if talbot plays 70 ish games in the regular season and then into the playoffs fatigue might become a factor.

[MAC331]

2 hours ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

So on another note I was listening to edmonton radio today, and they were talking with a goaltending "expert" from a magazine, who has lots of connections. He was pointing out how bad the work load of a backup can be very difficult, and mentally challenging, some guys just arent up to it. He pointed out that as a backup you have your work with the goalie coach before practice, then practice where you get peppered with shots, and then usually there is shooting drills/specials teams work where you are also peppered with shots. He was pointing out the workload of the average backup, and I never thought about it when I played but you are a glorified shooter tutor, and it can be mentally challenging. Im really wondering if thats why we saw the downfall of ortio last year, cause I really dont know if jordan sigalet is that good at ruining goalies. I wonder if it was just the weird workload ortio had and the lack of confidence that crept into his game.

I agree being a back up goalie is tough mentally. You have to be ready without a lot of game action and expected to deliver a win same as the regular. I think Johnson is the perfect back up because he seems to get psyched about coming in to prove himself but loses focus with to much use. When he is fresh his fundamentals are very sound. Elliott seems to need more work in order to be sharp and hasn't been getting it, thus the varied results.

[conundrumed]

41 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

They did bring that up.

 

The guy was commenting how after talbot they dont really have any known NHL talent in the back up sensem, brossoit hasent looked great when he has played minus the one game against us where he was average at best. Im curious to see what happens come playoffs if talbot plays 70 ish games in the regular season and then into the playoffs fatigue might become a factor.

It is something that I'd be worried about if I'm McLellan...

[Flyerfan52]

On 2017-02-06 at 7:09 PM, conundrumed said:

 

After an article I read about the Flyers goal tending an idea occurred.

Flyers & Flames are both in a dog fight for a wild card spot. Neither has received great goaltending & both are running a tandem where none of the 4 are under contract come July 1.

We talk of re-signing Johnson & the flyers will likely re-up Mason. Often a change of scenery benifits a player @ least in the short term. So how about a trade of Elliott for Neuvirth. Elliot is paid a bit more but not enough to matter.

There could be an additional 2 players involved or done in a stand alone. I'm thinking Read for Stajan. Both are versatile up front & have 1 year left after this season. &s are also close enough to make little difference. If both deals are done the cap hit is almost equal.

 

 

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

After an article I read about the Flyers goal tending an idea occurred.

Flyers & Flames are both in a dog fight for a wild card spot. Neither has received great goaltending & both are running a tandem where none of the 4 are under contract come July 1.

We talk of re-signing Johnson & the flyers will likely re-up Mason. Often a change of scenery benifits a player @ least in the short term. So how about a trade of Elliott for Neuvirth. Elliot is paid a bit more but not enough to matter.

There could be an additional 2 players involved or done in a stand alone. I'm thinking Read for Stajan. Both are versatile up front & have 1 year left after this season. &s are also close enough to make little difference. If both deals are done the cap hit is almost equal.

 

 

You're working it and I don't hate the idea outside of 2 things:

1. Elliott might get better as the pressure mounts.

2. I would hope to trade Stajan for prospect/pick rather than keeping that salary on the books.

Read might be another guy getting too much for a 4th liner, so the deal carries a lot of risk that all we're doing is standing still, not getting better or getting cap space.

 

For me, I think our first priority is to get in line in a cap world, so I wouldn't really want much salary back for Stajan because I need to be sure his savings go towards a top 6 RW, top 4 D or goaltending, be it re-signings or finding something new.

I actually think our goaltending would look a lot better if it weren't for constantly trying to overcome our #4 dman.

 

As for the Flyers, they have a position of strength to deal from at D. If Voracek gets in tune, I don't think the Flyers would be in a dog fight for a playoff spot. It would be a given. I think when your side gets back to scoring, they have the firepower to blow the doors off. You might just be suffering the calm before the storm!

[cross16]

I'm not the biggest Elliot fan and really don't like how he has played but i'm not so sure I would be dealing him at this point. I'd consider it if it brought back a better goalie, but not a chance of scenery option like Neuvirth.

 

Last year, Elliott was pretty sup par the first half of the year and then caught fire in the 2nd half. I think the best value he can give the Flames is hold on to him and hope he can do the same thing. 

 

 

[Flyerfan52]

So some are frustrated with iffy goaltending but prefer to stand pat because Elliott might improve. That's a pretty optimistic might.

Is that the feeling in general? Don't take a chance on a replacement but take a chance with the current scenario.

 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

So some are frustrated with iffy goaltending but prefer to stand pat because Elliott might improve. That's a pretty optimistic might.

Is that the feeling in general? Don't take a chance on a replacement but take a chance with the current scenario.

 

 

Unless it's an upgrade to a bonafide #1, then what is the point?  Bishop may fit the bill, but he is having an Elliott season and he's a pending UFA.  Unless there is a general agreement on terms for re-signing, then it's a huge risk to trade for him.  

 

I'm of the belief that Elliott is our best bet on the team for returning to normal.  You are seeing signs of it, among the softies he lets in.  We have seen the best of CJ, so I wonder if he can recapture the magic of November.  He looked superb in the last game, even if he let in a softie, but he has been following those up with bad games.  I suspect we will see more 4 GA performances than 2 or fewer.    

[JTech780]

3 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

So some are frustrated with iffy goaltending but prefer to stand pat because Elliott might improve. That's a pretty optimistic might.

Is that the feeling in general? Don't take a chance on a replacement but take a chance with the current scenario.

 

 

I would welcome a move to improve the goaltending, but sideways move in the hope of catching fire isn't the way I would go. 

 

A lot of the goalies that are on the market, are struggling this year, which makes it a little tougher. I would still prefer a Bishop or Fleury or Mrazek over a Neuvirth. 

[cross16]

30 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

So some are frustrated with iffy goaltending but prefer to stand pat because Elliott might improve. That's a pretty optimistic might.

Is that the feeling in general? Don't take a chance on a replacement but take a chance with the current scenario.

 

 

What is more likely, Elliot get it together and plays well down the stretch of Neuvirth does? I would bet on Elliott over most of the "reclamation" options that are out there. Elliott has played at a higher level than almost all the available goalies. 

[MAC331]

57 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

What is more likely, Elliot get it together and plays well down the stretch of Neuvirth does? I would bet on Elliott over most of the "reclamation" options that are out there. Elliott has played at a higher level than almost all the available goalies. 

I think we ride these two we have to the bitter end and see what has transpired. This leaves our goalie position wide open and this could be a good offseason for us.

[TheFan99]

Goaltending was our Achilles heel last season. Now we have a goalie who led in save percentage last year and another one that had a stellar year last year too. Is maybe Jordan Siglet not a good coach? I mentioned last year to fire JS but was met with ridicule. 

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, TheFan99 said:

Goaltending was our Achilles heel last season. Now we have a goalie who led in save percentage last year and another one that had a stellar year last year too. Is maybe Jordan Siglet not a good coach? I mentioned last year to fire JS but was met with ridicule. 

 

I would say it is players and goalies to blame. Both are extremely cerebral, and they influence each other. That's my take. When one doesn't trust the other, it effects the way the other plays. On one hand, they can play good in spite, but at the same time, I think if it is cumulative then we see brain farts happen. 

 

My take, but not exactly science and I think I get negative responses or critiques in my theory. I tend to defend goalies because they get blamed but I also think it goes both ways. I just think you can't blame one or the other. 

[DirtyDeeds]

On 2/5/2017 at 6:31 PM, JTech780 said:

 

There is a brief window for players who go undrafted to sign with teams after the draft and before they go to their junior team. Schneider went undrafted, then was invited to Flames camp and impressed enough to get a contract before he was sent back to junior.

 

Vehvilainen went undrafted last year. He is a undersized and with the way goalie equipment is starting to shrink, I wonder if that is going to effect smaller goalies more. 

 

On 2/5/2017 at 6:37 PM, jjgallow said:

 

I take it that window is gone now?  For free, he would have been a good pickup for sure.

 

Isn't he like, less than an inch separation from Parsons?

 

Good question on the goalie size thing.   I feel like when the pads and such got bigger, it benefited the larger goalies more.  I'm not sure on that either.  But the larger the goalie, the more square footage of the net they can eliminate with equipment.   It might actually level the playing field?  Either way, I don't see 6'0 as undersized.  I see 5'9 as undersized, personally.

The discussions I have heard are saying the pad changes will benefit the athletic goalies more. Those goalies who have relied on being blockers due to equipment will struggle more. Time will tell but so far only the pants have changed. 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

 

The discussions I have heard are saying the pad changes will benefit the athletic goalies more. Those goalies who have relied on being blockers due to equipment will struggle more. Time will tell but so far only the pants have changed. 

Makes sense.

I was listening to Kay Whitmore talking about adjustments, and they learned from the pants gaffe. Midway through the season applies to everyone differently. This teams played 47, that one only 40,. Let's just say it was a bad idea that they've learned from...where do I apply? Wow you guys...I don't have foresight into becoming a millionaire, but jesus, I have a basic foresight, which this really is. Wow.

[CheersMan]

Where would our season be without CJ?

 

[rickross]

Are the Flames still desperate for a #1 goalie? If we resign Elliot and CJ is that a regressive move? I know there's still chatter around Bishop and Fleury but are they such big upgrades that can truly solidify the position. I still think we can sign Elliot and CJ for the price of one of Bishop or Fleury. Elliot has shown more consistency lately and like Cheersman said we do owe a good portion of our success to CJ's early play. 

[conundrumed]

30 minutes ago, rickross said:

Are the Flames still desperate for a #1 goalie? If we resign Elliot and CJ is that a regressive move? I know there's still chatter around Bishop and Fleury but are they such big upgrades that can truly solidify the position. I still think we can sign Elliot and CJ for the price of one of Bishop or Fleury. Elliot has shown more consistency lately and like Cheersman said we do owe a good portion of our success to CJ's early play. 

I haven't been against our goalies too much all year. It almost seems like the fix is in with the 2D additions and not having Wideman playing with his skate guards on 20 min/gm.

Goalies have bad games, even the best ones. But I think a lot of it has been the team more than the Gs.

Our G isn't a problem when the team shows up, imho.

[travel_dude]

30 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I haven't been against our goalies too much all year. It almost seems like the fix is in with the 2D additions and not having Wideman playing with his skate guards on 20 min/gm.

Goalies have bad games, even the best ones. But I think a lot of it has been the team more than the Gs.

Our G isn't a problem when the team shows up, imho.

 

I would also say that Elliott is now the starter and CJ the backup.  That seems to be giving us the best chance to win now.