Goaltending

[Flyerfan52]

16 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

JTech is right. They signed Tom McColum and he fits the expansion draft requirements so they are good. 

Thanks guys. Such a minor signing I forgot about him.

[Carty]

7 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

Okay, when does the goalie coach become accountable?

 

I said it in a different thread and I'll say it again here...    That's 5 out of 5 goalies that have gone downhill since Sigalet came on board...   Off hand, I can't even think of another team that has happened to...   Ever..

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, Carty said:

 

I said it in a different thread and I'll say it again here...    That's 5 out of 5 goalies that have gone downhill since Sigalet came on board...   Off hand, I can't even think of another team that has happened to...   Ever..

 

We are thinking alike.  I can't remember if he was here for Berra and Joey (Checked - he was the Heat goalie coach from 08-2011 until 08-2014, then became the Flames one), but he was here for the ruination of Hiller, Ortio and Ramo.  I can't exactly say if Ortio was ever a good prospect, but JJ might.  Hartley used his recommendations for the starter, so take that for what it's worth.

[rocketdoctor]

I think you have to look at the goalie coach.

 

He arrived in August 2014.

 

3 years and 4-5 goalies not playing to their potential.   You could argue Hiller was at the end of his career but Hiller had a .918% the first year with JS as goalie coach.  Why did it plummet to .875%?  Did he suddenly become a non NHL calibre goalie.  Hiller is still only 34 and his NHL stats have been pretty consistent throughout his career and he avgs .917%

 

Ramo's sv% did not alter much in his 3 years here.

.911% year before JS

.912% 1st year JS

.909% 2nd year JS

 

Can it be that he has just been unlucky and all his charges have stunk the place out?

 

Would also ask how many of his charges whilst he was in coach of our farm team for 3 years have made it to the bigs?

 

Not trying to give the goalies a free ride from their current form.  They are both old enough to know better.   After all CJ had a stellar patch a few weeks back and we all loved his play.

 

[travel_dude]

If you take out the starts that Elliott used red pads, he has been a lot better.  If you look at recent starts:

 

 

 

[cross16]

44 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

Can it be that he has just been unlucky and all his charges have stunk the place out?

 

 

Yes.

 

I'm not going to defend Sigalet but yes its very possible, and IMO its exactly what has happended, is that this has far more to do with the goalies he's working with and not anything Sigalet is doing. I think the onus is more on management because for the most part they really are not bringing in very good goalies and certainly not proven goalies. Even Elliott was not proven, he was looking like a career backup until he played behind a stellar defensive unit and only then did he look good. Pretty sure outside of St Louis, Elliott's save percentage is below 90%. 

 

I'm not sure what we really expect when twice the Flames opted for the "best goalie not in the NHL" and then have been signing and trading for backups. I actually don't mind Johnson's season he's been solid but he shouldn't be playing the games he is. 

[travel_dude]

11 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I actually don't mind Johnson's season he's been solid but he shouldn't be playing the games he is. 

 

That's where the goalie coach is coming into play.  You remember last season when we were wondering every time a goalie got the start?  BH used a number of reasons; schedule, goalie coach's recommendation. gut.  Gully may operate differently, but I have heard him refer to meeting with the coach(s) to figure out the starter.

[cross16]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

That's where the goalie coach is coming into play.  You remember last season when we were wondering every time a goalie got the start?  BH used a number of reasons; schedule, goalie coach's recommendation. gut.  Gully may operate differently, but I have heard him refer to meeting with the coach(s) to figure out the starter.

 

Sure but once again consider the choices. Elliott was not very good to start the season and Johnson was much better. Elliot has only been slightly better as of late but really both haven't been very good. 

 

Your are trying to pick the lesser of two evils right now. That isn't easy. I would have played Elliott more but i understand what they are doing. Easier for us to say, but when your job is on the line you are going to go with the safer bet and that's been Johnson, no question. 

[Carty]

39 minutes ago, cross16 said:

go with the safer bet and that's been Johnson, no question

 

For a stretch that was true, particularly when Elliott was still wearing the red pads...   But Johnson's last 3 games were pretty bad...

 

      

[cross16]

13 minutes ago, Carty said:

 

For a stretch that was true, particularly when Elliott was still wearing the red pads...   But Johnson's last 3 games were pretty bad...

 

      

 

For sure, but then Elliott was equally as bad in Toronto. 

 

My point is that neither guy is really earning the job at this point. So If i'm a coach i'm going to go with who i feel is safer. I don't think there is any debating that Johnson has been the safer bet all year so I'm not going to criticize a coaching or a coaching staff (whose jobs depends on the decision) with going who they feel is the safer option. 

[ABC923]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Yes.

 

I'm not going to defend Sigalet but yes its very possible, and IMO its exactly what has happended, is that this has far more to do with the goalies he's working with and not anything Sigalet is doing. I think the onus is more on management because for the most part they really are not bringing in very good goalies and certainly not proven goalies. Even Elliott was not proven, he was looking like a career backup until he played behind a stellar defensive unit and only then did he look good. Pretty sure outside of St Louis, Elliott's save percentage is below 90%. 

 

I'm not sure what we really expect when twice the Flames opted for the "best goalie not in the NHL" and then have been signing and trading for backups. I actually don't mind Johnson's season he's been solid but he shouldn't be playing the games he is. 

Elliott only has 2 seasons (outside this season) where he is below .900 Sv%.  You have to go back to when he was 25 and still developing to find a season comparable to this.  Was he better in St. Louis?  Sure, but he was there for five seasons.  Has the defense always been stellar?  And if so, why is St. Louis getting such poor goaltending this year in front of virtually the same defense as last season?

 

The only fair criticism of Elliott going into this season is he has never had to be the true number one.  Could he carry the load?  Legitimate concern for sure.  But he hasn't been played like a number 1 this year either.  He's on track to start pretty close to the same number of games this year as last.  So I would say that Elliott had been proven a capable 1B coming into the season, but is failing to live up to being an average backup, so what gives?

[Carty]

51 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I don't think there is any debating that Johnson has been the safer bet all year so I'm not going to criticize a coaching or a coaching staff (whose jobs depends on the decision) with going who they feel is the safer option. 

 

 

 

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, ABC923 said:

Elliott only has 2 seasons (outside this season) where he is below .900 Sv%.  You have to go back to when he was 25 and still developing to find a season comparable to this.  Was he better in St. Louis?  Sure, but he was there for five seasons.  Has the defense always been stellar?  And if so, why is St. Louis getting such poor goaltending this year in front of virtually the same defense as last season?

 

The only fair criticism of Elliott going into this season is he has never had to be the true number one.  Could he carry the load?  Legitimate concern for sure.  But he hasn't been played like a number 1 this year either.  He's on track to start pretty close to the same number of games this year as last.  So I would say that Elliott had been proven a capable 1B coming into the season, but is failing to live up to being an average backup, so what gives?

 

 

Elliott hasn't been played like a #1 because he hadn't played like a #1, and has yet to so far.

[conundrumed]

23 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Elliott hasn't been played like a #1 because he hadn't played like a #1, and has yet to so far.

I believe there's relationship between Elliott and prospects.

Always the yo-yo treatment. I'm not a fan, let guys make mistakes, they'll eliminate them eventually.

[AlbertaBoy12]

ON another note did anyone listen to CJ's post game comments? 

 

Guy is basically blaming the team in front of him saying we cant win when we give up breakaways and 2 on 1s. Personally I understand where he is coming from, its frustrating to have a 2 on 1 or breakaway, but they happen to every team. id rather have my goalie say I should have made some saves and I didnt, ive got to be better.

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

ON another note did anyone listen to CJ's post game comments? 

 

Guy is basically blaming the team in front of him saying we cant win when we give up breakaways and 2 on 1s. Personally I understand where he is coming from, its frustrating to have a 2 on 1 or breakaway, but they happen to every team. id rather have my goalie say I should have made some saves and I didnt, ive got to be better.

 

I recall Joey McDonald saying something similar.  It's bad enough to hear the coach rant about you, but to have a goalie that previously stopped 1/4 shots and lets in 5 needs to look in the mirror and shut the heck up.

[robrob74]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

I recall Joey McDonald saying something similar.  It's bad enough to hear the coach rant about you, but to have a goalie that previously stopped 1/4 shots and lets in 5 needs to look in the mirror and shut the heck up.

 

It was the first ever coaches rant. It's not that terrible that the coaches ranted. I get it, shouldn't call out the players and players shouldn't call out their goalies. This team does have a history of defensive breakdowns. We had some clean hockey for awhile, but they've reverted back to breakdowns. 

 

I also get he only saved so many. It's everyone's fault right now. 

[The_People1]

It hard for goalies to win when the team scores zero goals.

[Carty]

11 hours ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

ON another note did anyone listen to CJ's post game comments? 

 

Guy is basically blaming the team in front of him saying we cant win when we give up breakaways and 2 on 1s. Personally I understand where he is coming from, its frustrating to have a 2 on 1 or breakaway, but they happen to every team. id rather have my goalie say I should have made some saves and I didnt, ive got to be better.

 

Here's a link for the interview...   https://www.nhl.com/flames/video/post-game-chad-johnson/t-277443404/c-48736303

 

 

[cross16]

17 hours ago, ABC923 said:

Elliott only has 2 seasons (outside this season) where he is below .900 Sv%.  You have to go back to when he was 25 and still developing to find a season comparable to this.  Was he better in St. Louis?  Sure, but he was there for five seasons.  Has the defense always been stellar?  And if so, why is St. Louis getting such poor goaltending this year in front of virtually the same defense as last season?

 

The only fair criticism of Elliott going into this season is he has never had to be the true number one.  Could he carry the load?  Legitimate concern for sure.  But he hasn't been played like a number 1 this year either.  He's on track to start pretty close to the same number of games this year as last.  So I would say that Elliott had been proven a capable 1B coming into the season, but is failing to live up to being an average backup, so what gives?

 

His save % is exactly .900 outside of St Louis. I"m not sure if you've watched St Louis much this year but ehy are a mess. That isn't the same team they've been the last few years. Something telling for me too is if you look over Elliott's tenure with the Blues, they used alot of goalies, not just Elliott. Every year the goalie next to Elliot performed at basicaly the same level and the Blues also went out and paid a bunch for Ryan Miller even though Elliott was an All star that year (IIRC)

 

to me, Elliott looks like he is playing with no confidence. When I see a goalie letting in soft goals, missing things with his blocker, that is a guy who is just not as mentally sharp as they need to be. Something Elliott Friedman said stuck with me. He said he had heard that Elliott is at his best when he is being challenged and isn't THEE guy. What got him going in St Louis was he had to prove himself and fight for the net year after year. Johnson was here to be the backup, but sounds to me like Elliott may not have the mental makeup to be the number one, which is fine lots of goalies don't. 

 

16 hours ago, Carty said:

 

 

 

 

And..

 

Johnson isn't a number one. I would start Elliott more for sure, but that doesn't mean I don't understand why Johnson is in the net. That was also before Elliott got the Toronto game where I thought he was terrible, so makes me understand why he isn't getting more opportunities. 

 

That being said, coming out of the break I wouldn't mind seeing Elliott get 3-4 games in a row no questions asked. Tough thing to do. 

 

 

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

His save % is exactly .900 outside of St Louis. I"m not sure if you've watched St Louis much this year but ehy are a mess. That isn't the same team they've been the last few years. Something telling for me too is if you look over Elliott's tenure with the Blues, they used alot of goalies, not just Elliott. Every year the goalie next to Elliot performed at basicaly the same level and the Blues also went out and paid a bunch for Ryan Miller even though Elliott was an All star that year (IIRC)

 

to me, Elliott looks like he is playing with no confidence. When I see a goalie letting in soft goals, missing things with his blocker, that is a guy who is just not as mentally sharp as they need to be. Something Elliott Friedman said stuck with me. He said he had heard that Elliott is at his best when he is being challenged and isn't THEE guy. What got him going in St Louis was he had to prove himself and fight for the net year after year. Johnson was here to be the backup, but sounds to me like Elliott may not have the mental makeup to be the number one, which is fine lots of goalies don't. 

 

 

And..

 

Johnson isn't a number one. I would start Elliott more for sure, but that doesn't mean I don't understand why Johnson is in the net. Johnson hasn't played very well but he's still played better than Elliott. I've been pretty consistent with saying that. 

Well Elliott is back to where he is fighting and having to challenge for net time so this should bring out some good performances. The mistake I have seen is GG's inability to see when a change is required and that could be from trying to ride the one the team feels best about for a winning formula. Plus these two goalies are foreign to this coaching staff an aspect we are all forgetting. I think mentioned the key word and that is "sharp" GG has to jump on change when he "feels" one or the other isn't sharp. We know both are very capable and could help right the ship.

[Krule]

Here's what I got from his post game interview. He wasn't blaming anyone. I heard a lot of truth in his answers. He even stated that he needs to stop more breakaways. But the reality is that It's up to the team in front of him to limit those opportunities. They aren't! As a former goaltender, I can appreciate his take on their woes.

 

Lately, I've been seeing so many horrible giveaways (we must lead the league in that category!) by this team, resulting in great opportunities for the opposition. I so love seeing JH on the blueline during a powerplay try to pass cross-ice through 2 opposing players. I also agree with Gulutzen's post game assessment of the team. They're fragile and lack push back under adversity. You see it in their faces every time they get behind. It's like "Oh no, here we go again!" Trying to catch up in the last 5 minutes of the game is not playing a complete game. The whole team is making blatant mental mistakes resulting in breakaways and 2 on 1's. I have also seen the defense out of position a lot more than they used to be. Is it the coaches system? I'm not sure. Is it because they're trying to hard or they are still growing as a team? I would prefer the latter and hope that things are corrected ASAP.

 

Until the players man up or grow up, this will continue. It's easy to say the correct thing. It's harder to implement when you lack the confidence and belief to execute it. I will, however, still support my team...no matter what!       

[cross16]

As hard as i've been on the goalies, you can't blame one person or the other during this slump. Everyone is playing poorly right now so everyone needs to be better. That's what I took from Johnson's scrum, let's ALL be better and let's not point fingers one way or the other. 

[Carty]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

And..

 

Well, since you ask...   I couldn't help but see the humour when you posted this yesterday...

 

 

When only 4 days earlier you made a post that could not possibly be more of a contradiction...

 

 

and since you asked for an explanation, I'll break it down for you...   Between the 2 posts you made just 4 days apart, what you said was there is no debating Johnson has been the safer bet all year (when you had just said that Elliott was a safer bet), and that your not going to criticize a coach on who they choose as a safer option in the net (when you had just criticized a coach for making their choice on the goaltender they felt was a safer option)...  

 

[JustAFlamer]

biggest difference i have noticed is that the goaltenders generally do not have the faith that the defence is going to win the battle with any other attackers, in front or coming in and are not challenging as much as they have used to.  That is the biggest difference where i see one's "we think" they should have going in. 

 

While they are in good position and do have chance at stopping them there is the touch of room that on their other teams (buffalo/st.louis) they just did not leave.

CJ had a weaker defence in Buf that why i would say he the safer choice simply because he used to it.

I "think" overall need to get Elliot and defence to build some chemistry and trust and he will return to previous numbers.

 

How long takes to build that trust?  Should not be this long, but early in season whole team was garbage.

While we were strong, was Johnson.  Even when Elliot went strong, was Johnson next game.

I do believe with the declaration "We will go with winner" Elliot will be going on streak. (hopefully i do not have to eat my words)