Goaltending

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I know what he is saying and there is nothing wrong with the core we do have playing now other than they all need more experience before they are ever going to be saviours collectively. I think people's expectations were way to high for where this team was going this season. This was always going to be another growth year where this young core will need to mature and learn to win together. We will need these support players within the system, some this year and definitely some next year as some vets move out.

this is all true. Most of our core are still teenagers or close we need time and to show patience. We were told something different however and some of it from the Flames and management. This raised our expectations a lot. Similar to the acquisition of Hamilton he was supposed to be the missing piece to our D and take our D to the next level.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, YounGuns said:

You gotta feel for Elliot.  It seems each game the 1st or 2nd shot against goes in.  But you look at all those early goals and you can rarely fault the goalie.  Look at the first three goals last night (didn't see the 4th), none of them were Elliot's fault.  We carry the play then give up A++ chances and all of a sudden we're chasing the game, then we get sloppy and give up more A++ chances.  Elliot's gotta be completely deflated, but you really can't put the losses on him.  All this talk coming into the season of being a "connected" group...we've yet to see it consistently.

 

This is what I've been saying the last two years in here. We needed better goaltending. The goalie's we have are better than what we've had the last 3 seasons. It is the team D that needs to improve now.

[YounGuns]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I know what he is saying and there is nothing wrong with the core we do have playing now other than they all need more experience before they are ever going to be saviours collectively. I think people's expectations were way to high for where this team was going this season. This was always going to be another growth year where this young core will need to mature and learn to win together. We will need these support players within the system, some this year and definitely some next year as some vets move out.

 

Agree to disagree then.  "Nothing wrong with the core we do have other than they all need more experience".....you may be right.  Or it might be you that is looking at this core with unrealistic expectations of their potential.  Our top two players last year posted career numbers, JH was top 15 in the league (if I recall correctly), Monahan had an incredible year, Gio had a solid year, Hamilton had a career year....and yet we were a lottery team come draft time.  Our stars that require "more experience" most have 2 - 5 years already under their belt.  My point was that it's not like we have prospects like Bennett and Tkachuk that are developing in the system that we can look forward to infusing into our line-up in the next year or two and being that spark plug that puts us over the top.  Our top players - and top prospects - are all already up with the big club.  SO, if we can't show signs of improving this year (and so far we have a pretty dismal start to the season), then what exactly do we have to look forward to?  Yes, I agree that our young players will continue to improve, but if we can't take a big step forward with our young core all having another year experience, then I fail to see how I have unrealistic expecations.

 

It's not like we're the Coyotes who are playing poorly but have numerous potential stars either close to making cracking the line-up or on ELC.  I don't expect to challenge for the cup this year, I agree that's an absurd expectation.  I do expect to be significantly better than we were last year.  So far we are as bad if not worse than last year....and that's bad.  SO, if we only see nominal improvements even though we have a young core with another year experience, how can you expect to keep up with the current powerhouses in the west, or even the Oilers, Jets and Coyotes who all also have a young team that will be rapidly trending upwards, but also have stars coming up ready to make an impact?   All our stars are in the line-up, and the results are the same.

 

Keep in mind I did also say that I think they are still going to turn it around this year and that the past 15 games is not the same team we'll see for the next 15 games.  BUT, we'll see...

[DirtyDeeds]

2 minutes ago, YounGuns said:

 

....

 

Keep in mind I did also say that I think they are still going to turn it around this year and that the past 15 games is not the same team we'll see for the next 15 games.  BUT, we'll see...

I hope you are right. They are going to have to turn it around very soon or suffer the same fate as last year with no hope of playoffs.

[MAC331]

24 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

this is all true. Most of our core are still teenagers or close we need time and to show patience. We were told something different however and some of it from the Flames and management. This raised our expectations a lot. Similar to the acquisition of Hamilton he was supposed to be the missing piece to our D and take our D to the next level.

I don't disagree with you about the management hype and I think that comes from Burke and the effort to sell tickets. Personally I don't believe this team is ready to win from a maturity and experience standpoint. I would love as a fan to see them make the playoffs but I'm not going to flip out if they don't. Another solid draft and another year of personal growth for our young players and the team will be much better in 2017/18.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, YounGuns said:

 

Agree to disagree then.  "Nothing wrong with the core we do have other than they all need more experience".....you may be right.  Or it might be you that is looking at this core with unrealistic expectations of their potential.  Our top two players last year posted career numbers, JH was top 15 in the league (if I recall correctly), Monahan had an incredible year, Gio had a solid year, Hamilton had a career year....and yet we were a lottery team come draft time.  Our stars that require "more experience" most have 2 - 5 years already under their belt.  My point was that it's not like we have prospects like Bennett and Tkachuk that are developing in the system that we can look forward to infusing into our line-up in the next year or two and being that spark plug that puts us over the top.  Our top players - and top prospects - are all already up with the big club.  SO, if we can't show signs of improving this year (and so far we have a pretty dismal start to the season), then what exactly do we have to look forward to?  Yes, I agree that our young players will continue to improve, but if we can't take a big step forward with our young core all having another year experience, then I fail to see how I have unrealistic expecations.

 

It's not like we're the Coyotes who are playing poorly but have numerous potential stars either close to making cracking the line-up or on ELC.  I don't expect to challenge for the cup this year, I agree that's an absurd expectation.  I do expect to be significantly better than we were last year.  So far we are as bad if not worse than last year....and that's bad.  SO, if we only see nominal improvements even though we have a young core with another year experience, how can you expect to keep up with the current powerhouses in the west, or even the Oilers, Jets and Coyotes who all also have a young team that will be rapidly trending upwards, but also have stars coming up ready to make an impact?   All our stars are in the line-up, and the results are the same.

 

Keep in mind I did also say that I think they are still going to turn it around this year and that the past 15 games is not the same team we'll see for the next 15 games.  BUT, we'll see...

Who are all these stars that these other teams have in the minors ? I would love to hear this. I don't think I'm being unrealistic at all expecting players 18 to 22 with 3 or less years in the league to get vastly better over the next 3 years. This is a different year under a new coach and nobody seems to think this should slow these guys down, I call that unrealistic thinking. I look for them to continually improve throughout the season and that in itself will be measureable progress.

[YounGuns]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Who are all these stars that these other teams have in the minors ? I would love to hear this. I don't think I'm being unrealistic at all expecting players 18 to 22 with 3 or less years in the league to get vastly better over the next 3 years. This is a different year under a new coach and nobody seems to think this should slow these guys down, I call that unrealistic thinking. I look for them to continually improve throughout the season and that in itself will be measureable progress.

 

Give this website a look.  http://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-prospect-pools-the-complete-ranking/

 

Although it's not a crystal ball by any means, it does a decent job explaining what I was trying to say:  Our prospect pool does not contain elite talent like the Jets and the Coyotes...2 teams that are set to catapult up the standings in the next few years because of the young players currently on their NHL team AND the prospects currently not on their NHL team.  Whereas for the most part all our future stars are already on our NHL team, similar to the Oilers actually.  So when you're projecting head-to-head against the Oilers all you have to ask is if our current team will improve more than their current team.  In other words, will our current budding stars in our lineup have a higher cumulative ceiling than their current budding stars in their line up; a tall order but possibly.  When comparing the future Flames to the likes of the future Jets and Coyotes you have to consider their current team, AND their elite prospects that aren't even on their team yet.  A lot of the teams we're trying to leapfrog to get into the playoffs also have a lot of young talent currently in their line-up that will continue to improve - like ours, which I agree with you there - only those teams that I keep comparing us to also have potential stars that haven't even hit the NHL yet.  We don't have that, we have good prospects that will become players, I just don't see any elite prospects that are projected to become elite players, possibly with the exception of Gillies, but it's too early to tell on him.

 

So if you want a list of those "stars that these other teams have in the minors" that I was talking about, then have a look at that site. 

 

This all started because I quoted someone who said the future looks bright but it's just further away than we might expect, and I thought "well hold on, unless we take a big step forward this year our future doesn't look as bright as some of the other teams in the west."  And I still stand by that: Unless our current young core can take a big step forward this year, I think in 2 to 3 years we're going to be left in the dust by the likes of the Oilers, Jets and Coyotes.  That's all I was trying to say.  Do you disagree?

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, YounGuns said:

Unless our current young core can take a big step forward this year, I think in 2 to 3 years we're going to be left in the dust by the likes of the Oilers, Jets and Coyotes.  That's all I was trying to say.  Do you disagree?

 

I don't think the Oilers will leave us in the dust at all.  All their good players are playing.  Puljujarvi may or may not pan out in the NHL.

He doesn't look like much of an impact maker right now.  But I would also just match him up as equivalent to Tkachuk in impact.  I would agree with the Jets and Yotes prospects being better than ours overall. We have some nice forwards that could be better than advertised. We have some decent prospects on D that could be really good, such as Hickey, Fox, Andersson, Kylington. 

 

The Jets will have to manage their assets having players like Big Buff, Wheeler, Enstrom, Stafford starting to age.  

[MAC331]

9 hours ago, YounGuns said:

 

Give this website a look.  http://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-prospect-pools-the-complete-ranking/

 

Although it's not a crystal ball by any means, it does a decent job explaining what I was trying to say:  Our prospect pool does not contain elite talent like the Jets and the Coyotes...2 teams that are set to catapult up the standings in the next few years because of the young players currently on their NHL team AND the prospects currently not on their NHL team.  Whereas for the most part all our future stars are already on our NHL team, similar to the Oilers actually.  So when you're projecting head-to-head against the Oilers all you have to ask is if our current team will improve more than their current team.  In other words, will our current budding stars in our lineup have a higher cumulative ceiling than their current budding stars in their line up; a tall order but possibly.  When comparing the future Flames to the likes of the future Jets and Coyotes you have to consider their current team, AND their elite prospects that aren't even on their team yet.  A lot of the teams we're trying to leapfrog to get into the playoffs also have a lot of young talent currently in their line-up that will continue to improve - like ours, which I agree with you there - only those teams that I keep comparing us to also have potential stars that haven't even hit the NHL yet.  We don't have that, we have good prospects that will become players, I just don't see any elite prospects that are projected to become elite players, possibly with the exception of Gillies, but it's too early to tell on him.

 

So if you want a list of those "stars that these other teams have in the minors" that I was talking about, then have a look at that site. 

 

This all started because I quoted someone who said the future looks bright but it's just further away than we might expect, and I thought "well hold on, unless we take a big step forward this year our future doesn't look as bright as some of the other teams in the west."  And I still stand by that: Unless our current young core can take a big step forward this year, I think in 2 to 3 years we're going to be left in the dust by the likes of the Oilers, Jets and Coyotes.  That's all I was trying to say.  Do you disagree?

OK I did read what you sent here and from what I can see and evaluate the elite players listed are also already playing for their respective teams. Unless you can point out these other stars lucking under the surface I think your predictions will fizzle out. As for our system and our current main team status I think we are in great shape to progress in a positive direction. Right now I think we have very good support players in Backlund, Stajan, Frolik, Brouwer, Giordano, Brodie and even Engelland to show our younger players the right way. The only position that I see as high priority is either RW on the top line or LW on the 2nd line depending on where and who Tkachuk ends up playing with on a line.

Our young core should only get better over the next 5 years not decline. As far as support players in your pipeline, they are becoming more important if you already have the developing stars (which we do). We have a Jankowski to replace either Backlund or Stajan keeping us strong down the middle. Players like Shinkaruk, Mangiapane, Klimchuk, Poirier, Pribyl and Pollock could all surprise or at least be good support players up front. I have no concerns about our defense pipeline as I can see the timing for advancement working out quite well for the likes of Kylington, Morrison, Andersson, Hickey and a few others. Our Goalie situation could change after this season but I think we have some good ones coming in Gillies, MacDonald and Parsons. Also I would be hanging onto Chad Johnson.

All in all I think we will be fine.

[MAC331]

51 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't think the Oilers will leave us in the dust at all.  All their good players are playing.  Puljujarvi may or may not pan out in the NHL.

He doesn't look like much of an impact maker right now.  But I would also just match him up as equivalent to Tkachuk in impact.  I would agree with the Jets and Yotes prospects being better than ours overall. We have some nice forwards that could be better than advertised. We have some decent prospects on D that could be really good, such as Hickey, Fox, Andersson, Kylington. 

 

The Jets will have to manage their assets having players like Big Buff, Wheeler, Enstrom, Stafford starting to age.  

The Jets are going to be a force both now and future. ARI has gone maybe to young without great support players which will curtail the pace of their progress.

[travel_dude]

11 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

The Jets are going to be a force both now and future. ARI has gone maybe to young without great support players which will curtail the pace of their progress.

 

I look at Laine alone as a huge difference maker.  He's going to win the Calder this year and could actually win the scoring title.  Eleven goals in 17 games.  But their pipeline is great.  Turnover of the roster is going to be tough and learning not to take so many penalties is something to improve upon.  Arizona has a advanced stats guy as the GM.  I question his logic some days.  They have good young players and prospects, but seem content in mismanaging most of them.

[YounGuns]

33 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Our young core should only get better over the next 5 years not decline. As far as support players in your pipeline, they are becoming more important if you already have the developing stars (which we do). We have a Jankowski to replace either Backlund or Stajan keeping us strong down the middle. Players like Shinkaruk, Mangiapane, Klimchuk, Poirier, Pribyl and Pollock could all surprise or at least be good support players up front. I have no concerns about our defense pipeline as I can see the timing for advancement working out quite well for the likes of Kylington, Morrison, Andersson, Hickey and a few others. Our Goalie situation could change after this season but I think we have some good ones coming in Gillies, MacDonald and Parsons. Also I would be hanging onto Chad Johnson.

All in all I think we will be fine.

 

Agree with you there.  And I may be putting too much emphasis on "elite talent" in the prospect pool.  We do have elite talent on our roster, and they will continue to improve, and when you look at teams that win the cup they all have elite talent AND depth.  I think depth we'll have in spades actually, as our prospects are quite good at all positions.  That same article I had you read even had this to say about the Flames, despite placing them 8th overall.  "Given the Flames’ current cast of young NHL stars, when their amazing prospect base is developed, they could be one of the most dangerous teams in the NHL at all positions of the ice."  I too think we'll be fine, but I also think we need to take a big step forward this year...which I'm still optimistic that we will.  Our top line has been invisible for most of the early season, our systems have been horrendous, our specialty teams are vying for worst in the league....but we've got too much talent to keep the downward spiral going, any day now I'm expecting them to turn it around and start building back the confidence and swaggar that the early going has deflated so much of.  But gosh have we gone and dug ourselves a giant hole to claw out of.

 

And, going back to the original thread topic which I accidentally derailed us from, I think our goaltending will be fine.  I really like Johnson as a back-up, and I don't think you can fault Elliot on the games he's lost.  When you give up so many grade A++ chances like we've been doing...we've gotta clean that up.  We've shown we can skate with the best teams in the league, and we can control the play, and then we give up a odd man rush or three and it's been so deflating and frustrating to watch.  Plus we had a tough schedule to start the season, new coach and new systems yet we played 15 games (against numerous great teams) when a few teams were still at 10.  I'm glad we're hitting the road here....I think we need to get away and reset.

[MAC331]

9 minutes ago, YounGuns said:

 

Agree with you there.  And I may be putting too much emphasis on "elite talent" in the prospect pool.  We do have elite talent on our roster, and they will continue to improve, and when you look at teams that win the cup they all have elite talent AND depth.  I think depth we'll have in spades actually, as our prospects are quite good at all positions.  That same article I had you read even had this to say about the Flames, despite placing them 8th overall.  "Given the Flames’ current cast of young NHL stars, when their amazing prospect base is developed, they could be one of the most dangerous teams in the NHL at all positions of the ice."  I too think we'll be fine, but I also think we need to take a big step forward this year...which I'm still optimistic that we will.  Our top line has been invisible for most of the early season, our systems have been horrendous, our specialty teams are vying for worst in the league....but we've got too much talent to keep the downward spiral going, any day now I'm expecting them to turn it around and start building back the confidence and swaggar that the early going has deflated so much of.  But gosh have we gone and dug ourselves a giant hole to claw out of.

 

And, going back to the original thread topic which I accidentally derailed us from, I think our goaltending will be fine.  I really like Johnson as a back-up, and I don't think you can fault Elliot on the games he's lost.  When you give up so many grade A++ chances like we've been doing...we've gotta clean that up.  We've shown we can skate with the best teams in the league, and we can control the play, and then we give up a odd man rush or three and it's been so deflating and frustrating to watch.  Plus we had a tough schedule to start the season, new coach and new systems yet we played 15 games (against numerous great teams) when a few teams were still at 10.  I'm glad we're hitting the road here....I think we need to get away and reset.

I will take being ranked #8 out of 30 any day and it is a vast improvement from where we were 4 years ago. We could use another really good draft for 2017 so hopefully BT can unload some vets for picks later. NO I am not hoping for the top pick LOL.

Our players have to start executing within these systems, they should be past the learning phase by now.

Back to the topic, YES. I like our tandem of Elliott and Johnson both seasoned pros, once the team as a whole starts playing better so will they do better.

BTW thx for the link, I enjoyed that read.

[AlbertaBoy12]

6 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I will take being ranked #8 out of 30 any day and it is a vast improvement from where we were 4 years ago. We could use another really good draft for 2017 so hopefully BT can unload some vets for picks later. NO I am not hoping for the top pick LOL.

Our players have to start executing within these systems, they should be past the learning phase by now.

Back to the topic, YES. I like our tandem of Elliott and Johnson both seasoned pros, once the team as a whole starts playing better so will they do better.

BTW thx for the link, I enjoyed that read.

This is the truth. Honestly ive said it since the beginning our team is not that bad, and the system isent that bad, it kinda reminds me of when the islanders struggled a couple seasons back, or the ducks struggling a couple seasons back, when they didnt make the playoffs. I could go even deeper and point out when the ducks were struggling last year to start the year, and it just is what it is, not much you can do about it but ride it out till the team starts executing.

[Flyerfan52]

Hammond is on waivers. Any interest?

[conundrumed]

Not here.

He had a run as the Hamburglar but I think it's caught up with him, plus we have a lot of goalies.

Most recent Rittich has had the last 2 starts in Stockton and has given up 1 goal on 46 shots.

We're pretty packed at G in the minors.

[JTech780]

 

[conundrumed]

49 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

And this is what Rittich does with his chance, aye-yi-yi-yi.

It'll be an interesting year watching our netminders.

[JTech780]

9 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

And this is what Rittich does with his chance, aye-yi-yi-yi.

It'll be an interesting year watching our netminders.

Add in the fact that Gillies has been pretty average this year with a 2.98 GAA and a .901 save %.

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Add in the fact that Gillies has been pretty average this year with a 2.98 GAA and a .901 save %.

Maybe BT saw something the rest of us shrugged at?

We'll see how Rittich does from here...*eyebrows raised*

[CheersMan]

 

Chad Johnson is saving our bacon.  He is 4-1 in his last 5 games with a 0.948 SA%.  He’d be 5-0 if CHI never stole one in the last 2 minutes of the game.  He is clearly our #1 moving forward.    

[cross16]

Going to be interesting and quite challenging to handle the goaltending moving forward. Obviously you have to love what Chad Johnson has done and he's been terrific, but I also think the Flames need to get Elliot going. I'm not sold that Johnson can handle a number 1, 50 ish starts or more, the rest of the year and if the Flames want to get back into this they'll need Elliott. Will have to balance Johnson with also getting Elliott some games moving forward, but no question Johnson is their guy right now.

[TheFan99]

I'm not surprised CJ is doing well he's from Calgary and every off season since he was with the Rangers he's worked out at world pro goaltending in Calgary. He's  helped out my son and other young goaltenders occasionally after his work outs. He works his butt off. The coaches rapid fire him 2 shooters at a time for 5 minute intervals 2 minute breaks in between for 30 minutes, straight the guy is an animal. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

Going to be interesting and quite challenging to handle the goaltending moving forward. Obviously you have to love what Chad Johnson has done and he's been terrific, but I also think the Flames need to get Elliot going. I'm not sold that Johnson can handle a number 1, 50 ish starts or more, the rest of the year and if the Flames want to get back into this they'll need Elliott. Will have to balance Johnson with also getting Elliott some games moving forward, but no question Johnson is their guy right now.

 

I think we should go with "always earned, never given."  

 

Whoever is playing well, play him.

[DHT]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think we should go with "always earned, never given."  

 

Whoever is playing well, play him.

I'm in total agreement with this. We need wins and right now Johnson is giving us that. He is much calmer in the net than Elliot.