Goaltending

[jjgallow]

It's Reto.

 

And, if you look, you'll see that everybody on here is complaining.  We may not agree on the solution but everyone agrees that what the Flames are doing isn't working.

 

And why, on earth, would you think that Ortio starting for the Heat is an impossibility?  

 

I still see it as the clear, and most likely outcome of this year.  I only get annoyed at how long the process is taking.

 

Where on earth did you get that from, honestly?  I've received a Lot of criticism on here, mostly for making unpopular predictions which have come true or are coming true right now.

 

But it never even occurred to me that anyone would see Ortio starting for the Heat as an impossibility.

 

If that is your feelling, then I guess I'll just add it to my list of things about Flames goaltenders that people have told me are impossible.   But I didn't see that one coming, let me tell you.

 

 

Let me tell you what I think is nearly impossible from what you wrote:

 

-Ramo becoming the automatic starter for the Heat  

      (you really think he would even report? Or that Feaster would ever embarrass himself like that? )

 

-JMac being sent down

      (you stopped yourself short there....good.  Highly unlikely the Flames subject him to waivers.  He has value)

 

-Berra being called up

     (the Flames might do it, but understand that Berra is getting pulled, in the AHL.  It would be very short-lived.)

 

 

Here's what's simple, DD:  The Flames have:

 

1.  A seasoned NHL backup

 

2.  A mediocre KHL goalie that previously fled the AHL and NHL after getting blown out, and is doing it now too

 

3.  A Swiss goalie with no NHL experience, more holes than the cheese they're known for, and a nack for getting pulled in AHL games.

 

4.  A talented, and young Ortio, playing shutout hockey right now, who they never took seriously after putting him in the AHL too early and watching him get 9 goals scored on him in one game.

 

5.  A talented, and even younger Brossoit, who they just put in the AHL too early, and watched him get 9 goals scored on him in one game.

 

Drawn expectations:  

 

Expect the goalie playing shutout hockey to get the promotion.  How long it takes, is just a question of the competency of the organization.

 

Expect the goalie getting pulled, to not get a promotion.   A demotion, or a trade, are both possible.

 

Expect the goalie getting blasted by 9 goals to:  Have their confidence shattered and their development significantly set back.

 

Expect the goalie with the $2.5M contract to NOT get a demotion.  Not unless Feaster does first.  With the way he's playing, don't expect him to be our starter.  And Definitely don't expect him to get traded.  Nobody would take him.

 

Expect the proven NHL backup, to start for the Flames, or get traded.  Because he has value.

 

 

Likely conclusions:

 

We're stuck with Ramo.  Nobody will take him, and there is too much pride involved (on his part, and Feaster's) to send him down.  He's likely not good enough to be our starter (I'll give him some more games), which makes him our backup.

 

Berra is on his way out.  He might have some trade value, with a  reasonable contract and some potential upside.  But he's awefully old to be getting pulled in the AHL.  That won't last long, and he's a lot easier to move than Ramo.  It is possible the Flames give him an NHL game or two before making a decision.  But don't expect them to go well.

 

Ortio's getting a promotion.  He's had two great seasons in SM Liiga, he had a great camp, and most importantly, he's playing shutout hockey.

 

JMac's our starter by process of elimination.  Nobody else has stepped up.

[Ameter]

I thought Ramo did a fairly good job last night. Very few goals were ones you could say he 'should have got', and none were softies. I think his play is stronger than Mac's, and expect to see him start more often.

[DirtyDeeds]

It's Reto.

And, if you look, you'll see that everybody on here is complaining. We may not agree on the solution but everyone agrees that what the Flames are doing isn't working.

 

JMac's our starter by process of elimination.  Nobody else has stepped up.

So let me get this straight.. You of all people are calling me out for spelling Reto as Rito???? This from the guy who couldn't even get straight "who is Reto Berra" & who is "Laurent Brossoit"??

 

 

The same guy who had problems with the difference between the OHL and the WHL and which league the Ottawa 67's played in??

Great !!!  I will remember that JJ and make note of this for next time you make a trivial spelling mistake.

 

I'm not going to bother reading the rest of your post because if you have to start a post out with a 1 letter spelling mistake then there isn't much content worthy of reading to follow.

[travel_dude]

It's Reto.

 

And, if you look, you'll see that everybody on here is complaining.  We may not agree on the solution but everyone agrees that what the Flames are doing isn't working.

 

And why, on earth, would you think that Ortio starting for the Heat is an impossibility?  

 

I still see it as the clear, and most likely outcome of this year.  I only get annoyed at how long the process is taking.

 

Where on earth did you get that from, honestly?  I've received a Lot of criticism on here, mostly for making unpopular predictions which have come true or are coming true right now.

 

But it never even occurred to me that anyone would see Ortio starting for the Heat as an impossibility.

 

If that is your feelling, then I guess I'll just add it to my list of things about Flames goaltenders that people have told me are impossible.   But I didn't see that one coming, let me tell you.

 

 

Let me tell you what I think is nearly impossible from what you wrote:

 

-Ramo becoming the automatic starter for the Heat  

      (you really think he would even report? Or that Feaster would ever embarrass himself like that? )

 

-JMac being sent down

      (you stopped yourself short there....good.  Highly unlikely the Flames subject him to waivers.  He has value)

 

-Berra being called up

     (the Flames might do it, but understand that Berra is getting pulled, in the AHL.  It would be very short-lived.)

 

 

Here's what's simple, DD:  The Flames have:

 

1.  A seasoned NHL backup

 

2.  A mediocre KHL goalie that previously fled the AHL and NHL after getting blown out, and is doing it now too

 

3.  A Swiss goalie with no NHL experience, more holes than the cheese they're known for, and a nack for getting pulled in AHL games.

 

4.  A talented, and young Ortio, playing shutout hockey right now, who they never took seriously after putting him in the AHL too early and watching him get 9 goals scored on him in one game.

 

5.  A talented, and even younger Brossoit, who they just put in the AHL too early, and watched him get 9 goals scored on him in one game.

 

Drawn expectations:  

 

Expect the goalie playing shutout hockey to get the promotion.  How long it takes, is just a question of the competency of the organization.

 

Expect the goalie getting pulled, to not get a promotion.   A demotion, or a trade, are both possible.

 

Expect the goalie getting blasted by 9 goals to:  Have their confidence shattered and their development significantly set back.

 

Expect the goalie with the $2.5M contract to NOT get a demotion.  Not unless Feaster does first.  With the way he's playing, don't expect him to be our starter.  And Definitely don't expect him to get traded.  Nobody would take him.

 

Expect the proven NHL backup, to start for the Flames, or get traded.  Because he has value.

 

 

Likely conclusions:

 

We're stuck with Ramo.  Nobody will take him, and there is too much pride involved (on his part, and Feaster's) to send him down.  He's likely not good enough to be our starter (I'll give him some more games), which makes him our backup.

 

Berra is on his way out.  He might have some trade value, with a  reasonable contract and some potential upside.  But he's awefully old to be getting pulled in the AHL.  That won't last long, and he's a lot easier to move than Ramo.  It is possible the Flames give him an NHL game or two before making a decision.  But don't expect them to go well.

 

Ortio's getting a promotion.  He's had two great seasons in SM Liiga, he had a great camp, and most importantly, he's playing shutout hockey.

 

JMac's our starter by process of elimination.  Nobody else has stepped up.

Did you miss the score from the next game, where Berra took OKC to a shootout, and won 2-1?

 

Ramo held his own against the best team in the NHL at the moment.  Getting lit up with 3 PP goals is not the end of the world, and even Hartley said Ramo played extremely well.  He is getting the start against LA.

 

As far as I can tell. Hartley is making roster decisions.  I don't always like them, but he makes them, not Jay.

[jjgallow]

So let me get this straight.. You of all people are calling me out for spelling Reto as Rito???? This from the guy who couldn't even get straight "who is Reto Berra" & who is "Laurent Brossoit"??

 

Well, if you prefer, next time I won't mention it.  I really didn't go on about it, or draw attention to it, or criticize you for it.  I'm sorry if that bothered you.    But, if I make a spelling mistake or some other screwup, I'm not too proud to be corrected.  So go ahead, and let me know.

[jjgallow]

Did you miss the score from the next game, where Berra took OKC to a shootout, and won 2-1?

 

We're talking about different games.  You're talking about last week's back to back games.  I'm talking about this week:

http://www.abbotsfordheat.com/schedule/

[Lucid_Flame91]

We're talking about different games.  You're talking about last week's back to back games.  I'm talking about this week:

http://www.abbotsfordheat.com/schedule/

 

OKC is this week, the 18th, 19th, berra yesterday gave us a shootout win and let in 1 goal.

[travel_dude]

We're talking about different games.  You're talking about last week's back to back games.  I'm talking about this week:

http://www.abbotsfordheat.com/schedule/

Say what?

 

If I'm not mistaken, the Heat played OKC Oct.18 and 19th.  That was this week.  Berra did get a 2-1 SO win, right?  The game before Berra let in 4 goals and was replaced by Brossoit.

[jjgallow]

Oh, ok we're talking about the same week, sorry.

 

http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?id=4979

 

His first week, he started off great, then had a not-so-great game.

 

Second week, 2 great games.

 

Third week, got pulled, then had a great game.

 

Which, because of the inconsistency, puts him 27th overall in the AHL, despite some good games.

http://theahl.com/stats/statdisplay.php?first=20&type=top_goalies&subType=1&season_id=43&leagueId=4&division_id=-1&confId=0

 

Not horrible.   Does not look like an NHL goaltender trapped in the AHL, though.

 

Maybe I'm being a bit hard on him.   I would probably be very excited if he was doing this as a 22 year old prospect.   But as a potential NHL starter?  I'm not seeing it.

[phoenix66]

Cervenka is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. One year deal and a low salary so when it didn't work was easy to say goodbye.

Actually, cervenka is a good example of why 2 year deals are better. No camp, blood clots, new system, new country, 1/2 season... his own poor attitude notwithstanding, I believe he comes back this a whole new player..just look at the difference in Hudler this year.

But thats already covered in the cervenka thread..

Just sayin, in the bloated salary world of the nhl, 2.6 mill is chump chsnge for a starting goaltender, I dont believe there was any ultimatums involved. Thats pretty much the stahdard bridge contract for a goaltender

Also..not sure about this, but the amount of salary may affect his FA status at term end.. ramo is Rfa at the end of 2 years, but yet cervenka was ufa at the end of his. I think salary level comes into play somewhere.

Again..not sure, will have to check into that..

[phoenix66]

 

Not horrible.   Does not look like an NHL goaltender trapped in the AHL, though.

 

Maybe I'm being a bit hard on him.   I would probably be very excited if he was doing this as a 22 year old prospect.   But as a potential NHL starter?  I'm not seeing it.

I get the impression that until the next kipper comes along no goalie is going to be good enough. For all intents and purposes hes no different than a 22 yr old prospect. Hes having to adapt his game to a new system that hes never played. The fact hes had more impressive games than bad ones, speaks to his skillset.

[Carty]

until the next kipper comes along no goalie is going to be good enough.

 

That, and the fact that until play in the D zone improves drastically, no goalie is going to be good enough...  

[jjgallow]

That, and the fact that until play in the D zone improves drastically, no goalie is going to be good enough...  

 

Exactly.   To be honest, I think we're closer to finding the next Kipper than we are to having a solid defense core.   We've got a couple years ahead of us.

[phoenix66]

That, and the fact that until play in the D zone improves drastically, no goalie is going to be good enough...  

  

Exactly.   To be honest, I think we're closer to finding the next Kipper than we are to having a solid defense core.   We've got a couple years ahead of us.

Both these statements are very true..kipper hid our defensive lackings for years..but in the end even he wasnt good enough.

[cross16]

Actually, cervenka is a good example of why 2 year deals are better. No camp, blood clots, new system, new country, 1/2 season... his own poor attitude notwithstanding, I believe he comes back this a whole new player..just look at the difference in Hudler this year.

But thats already covered in the cervenka thread..

Just sayin, in the bloated salary world of the nhl, 2.6 mill is chump chsnge for a starting goaltender, I dont believe there was any ultimatums involved. Thats pretty much the stahdard bridge contract for a goaltender

Also..not sure about this, but the amount of salary may affect his FA status at term end.. ramo is Rfa at the end of 2 years, but yet cervenka was ufa at the end of his. I think salary level comes into play somewhere.

Again..not sure, will have to check into that..

They are standard for guys who have proven they can play in the NHL. Contracts should be earned.

Money has nothing to do with rfa or UFA status. The age you sign your first NHL contract is what determines the status and because Ramo had an NHL deal at a younger age he falls into the typical UFA rules. Cervenka's deal was his first and at that age you don't retain any rfa status.

[Flyerfan52]

I do agree, there were goals last night I think jmac would have had and he deserves credit for points we have gotten. The mistakes on defense lat night were just magnified with ramo there.

My main point all along has just been if you are in a position to develop players then develop them. Jmac should be playing 1 in 5 games. If youre going to sit ramo or berra or whoever on the bench in favor of a guy whos short term, then you may as well just go sign bryzgalov and let berra and ramo fight it out in the ahl this year.

There are going to be more games like last night this year. The secret is out of the bag, the flames are going to work you hard and make you earn your 2 points. Riding jmac will probably raise us to a mid pack finish, get us a pick in the teens, but then where are we at the end of the year? Going into next year with a green goalie.

We are trying to develop players but the multitude of unproven goalies aren't the most important IMO. We have a pile of goalies that can get their shot @ it.

For now Monahan & Baertschi are in a winning atmosphere so if a career backup gives them a better chance to see that we try to win (as opposed to losing getting you more skilled wingers) it's worth more then pulling out all stops to make a 27 year old Ramo look good when we have 4 more unproven waiting.

If I recall correctly Ramo has an out to go home if not on the big club. If he goes we have others to replace him that don't have a record of NHL failure & make less.

[jjgallow]

Good game Ramo..

[phoenix66]

They are standard for guys who have proven they can play in the NHL. Contracts should be earned.

Money has nothing to do with rfa or UFA status. The age you sign your first NHL contract is what determines the status and because Ramo had an NHL deal at a younger age he falls into the typical UFA rules. Cervenka's deal was his first and at that age you don't retain any rfa status.

Makes sense..thanks for clarifying that!

[phoenix66]

Its just one game..just as the loss was. But Ramo sure looked like a 2.6M goalie tonight!

[lordxan]

Its just one game..just as the loss was. But Ramo sure looked like a 2.6M goalie tonight!

Yes he did, hope he keeps it up. Berra too.  if that 1-2 combo can prove it's self then Mac is gone.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't hate Mac by any means, I just don't think he fits in with this team and the direction it is and needs to go is all. Hey, what the hay, let him go back up an contending team guy deserves another shot at a cup anyway (good character guy and all and a solid BACKUP).

[Zoller]

Was a good game by Ramo last night. One thing is forsure, he has better rebound control than Jmac. I liked his compete level too. He didnt have the same huge flashy secondary saves that Jmac sometimes has but thats because he didnt have to. He was making more calm first saves and controlling the rebounds. Hopefully he can keep improving.

 

Ideally I would still like to see Ramo/Berra in a 1a 1b role this year. It would be best for all our prospective goalies to get rid of Jmac. The last thing we want is another Irving situation.

[phoenix66]

Yes he did, hope he keeps it up. Berra too.  if that 1-2 combo can prove it's self then Mac is gone.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't hate Mac by any means, I just don't think he fits in with this team and the direction it is and needs to go is all. Hey, what the hay, let him go back up an contending team guy deserves another shot at a cup anyway (good character guy and all and a solid BACKUP).

See and thats exactly it. I love jmac, the irony is hes exactly what we needed for years, and havent had since jamie McClellan. Top quality backup, wins when he plays..can handle a larger load, quality character. Probably best guy to have behind a rookie.

Until such time as both ramo and berra have proven they can split the load I dont want him going anywhere. But when that time comes I hope they move him to a contender. I think if you expose him on waivers, he gets snapped up..the oilers especially, if MacT has half a brain would be stupid not to.

Unless he keeps playing lights out, I think you might see ramo do about a 10 game stint in the A just to test out berra before xmas. If he shows well then they make the move in the new year

[robrob1974]

See and thats exactly it. I love jmac, the irony is hes exactly what we needed for years, and havent had since jamie McClellan. Top quality backup, wins when he plays..can handle a larger load, quality character. Probably best guy to have behind a rookie.

Until such time as both ramo and berra have proven they can split the load I dont want him going anywhere. But when that time comes I hope they move him to a contender. I think if you expose him on waivers, he gets snapped up..the oilers especially, if MacT has half a brain would be stupid not to.

Unless he keeps playing lights out, I think you might see ramo do about a 10 game stint in the A just to test out berra before xmas. If he shows well then they make the move in the new year

 

Are we allowed to send a player down to have 3 goalies up?

[travel_dude]

Are we allowed to send a player down to have 3 goalies up?

Team has already said they won't go with 3 on the roster at the same time.  Otherwise Berra would have stayed up initially.

[conundrumed]

See and thats exactly it. I love jmac, the irony is hes exactly what we needed for years, and havent had since jamie McClellan. Top quality backup, wins when he plays..can handle a larger load, quality character. Probably best guy to have behind a rookie.

Until such time as both ramo and berra have proven they can split the load I dont want him going anywhere. But when that time comes I hope they move him to a contender. I think if you expose him on waivers, he gets snapped up..the oilers especially, if MacT has half a brain would be stupid not to.

Unless he keeps playing lights out, I think you might see ramo do about a 10 game stint in the A just to test out berra before xmas. If he shows well then they make the move in the new year

I firmly agree.

Stats be damned, if you're winning...errr giving us a chance to win with this roster, that's all that matters at the end of the day.

I don't get the, "ditch jmac" for the 1a and 1b.

JMac is backup $$$, he's not fighting the starter spot.

The team tends to play for him, like they never  did for Kiprusoff, it's like a parallel universe. Enter Ramo, and the team really stepped up, like they never did for anyone else.

 

It's Hartley's job, and I like the way he's rolled. Ramo's had the opportunity to observe and absorb the new league for a handful of games.

As far as I'm concerned, that's ideal. JMac afforded him, and us, that.