Goaltending

[Carty]

Already we are seeing some exciting games, with sub-par play in the D zone and sub-par goaltending.

 

Fixed...  

[jjgallow]

As far as acquiring lots of sub-par goaltending, I think you make statements without the benefit of hard evidence.  We have seen exactly one game of Ramo's and none of Berra or Ortio (or Brossoit). 

 

I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but I think you have that logic backwards.

 

True, we don't have any proven NHL starters this year, and the only NHL proven goaltender we have is JMac.

 

It appears that you are using this to to assume that we must have 2 or 3 starting NHL goalies, and nobody can prove you wrong because we haven't seen them play enough NHL games.

 

But that's not how it works, unfortunately.

 

Berra was just pulled last night after some brutal play in the AHL.

http://theahl.com/stats/game-summary.php?game_id=1011157

 

While you are correct that we haven't seen him in the NHL, I think we can all put two and two together and assume that his struggles in the AHL aren't likely going to translate well up here, or that we should get excited about a "Ramo Berra" combo.

 

If Berra can prove that he is worthy of being in the AHL, then we can Ask the Question as to whether we should ignore training camp, where he was beaten by Ramo, who is also unproven, and give him another Chance in the NHL.

 

I haven't played an NHL game either...maybe I'm a starter?

 

Now, I'm wishing Ramo the best tonight, so no comments there.

 

But so far, the only goaltenders in our system that hasn't blown it so far, are Ortio and Gillies.   And they're nowhere near ready to help the Flames this year or next.   Coincidentally, neither of them have been given any opportunities with the Heat either (Ortio doing well in the ECHL, Gillies in College).  Unfortunately, our best shot at developing our future goaltending saviours, is to keep them far, far away from our goaltending glut.

[travel_dude]

I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but I think you have that logic backwards.

 

True, we don't have any proven NHL starters this year, and the only NHL proven goaltender we have is JMac.

 

It appears that you are using this to to assume that we must have 2 or 3 starting NHL goalies, and nobody can prove you wrong because we haven't seen them play enough NHL games.

 

But that's not how it works, unfortunately.

 

Berra was just pulled last night after some brutal play in the AHL.

http://theahl.com/stats/game-summary.php?game_id=1011157

 

While you are correct that we haven't seen him in the NHL, I think we can all put two and two together and assume that his struggles in the AHL aren't likely going to translate well up here, or that we should get excited about a "Ramo Berra" combo.

 

If Berra can prove that he is worthy of being in the AHL, then we can Ask the Question as to whether we should ignore training camp, where he was beaten by Ramo, who is also unproven, and give him another Chance in the NHL.

 

I haven't played an NHL game either...maybe I'm a starter?

 

Now, I'm wishing Ramo the best tonight, so no comments there.

 

But so far, the only goaltenders in our system that hasn't blown it so far, are Ortio and Gillies.   And they're nowhere near ready to help the Flames this year or next.   Coincidentally, neither of them have been given any opportunities with the Heat either (Ortio doing well in the ECHL, Gillies in College).  Unfortunately, our best shot at developing our future goaltending saviours, is to keep them far, far away from our goaltending glut.

"face palm"

 

I am saying nothing other than you relegate all Flames goalies to being sub-par.  If I'm not mistaken, the only goalie you have given the benefit of the doubt was Taylor.  If it wasn't you, then sorry.  Point is that you can't make blanket statements without proof.  Well you can, but it is just your opinion, not fact.  Wait till Ramo plays 10 games before you say he sucks.

[jjgallow]

He deserves 10 games for sure.

[JTech780]

Gotta feel for Ramo this game, hasnt played in almost two weeks and gets put in against the best team in the league right now.

 

Hard to blame him on any of the goals so far, his defense is letting him down and Calgary is just taking too many penalties.

 

I would hate to see him getting judged unfairly based on this game.

[Zirakzigil]

All goals were either tips or players left wide open in front of the net. I thought he played a great game with the defense leaving him out to dry.

[geos]

He deserves 10 games for sure.

 

Feaster gave Ramo $5.5M. He'll play 80+ games over the next two years regardless, Feaster's job is dependant upon it. At least half the games. Watch for it. 

[jjgallow]

I'm not going to say anything about Ramo.

 

What I will say, is that Ortio got a shutout tonight.

[conundrumed]

Feaster gave Ramo $5.5M. He'll play 80+ games over the next two years regardless, Feaster's job is dependant upon it. At least half the games. Watch for it. 

 

It would have been nice to hear we were at least in the equation when Bernier, Bishop etc were available.

Feaster's unorthodox methods of trying to fill holes I hope are going to be squashed by Burke in the future.

IMO, it does look like he hung his hat on Ramo to replace Kiprusoff.

I do appreciate the 'glut' of prospect goalies, but unfortunately, I think Ramo is currently a prospect under an unprospect-like contract.

Say what you like about JMac, but he deserves some credit for coming up with some late point-earning saves that you need your goalie to be able to do.

Some have implied the Flames rolled in spite of him, and that isn't really true. A weak goal here and there is only relevent when it is why we lost. That hasn't happenened.

You know he's helping when Hrudey laughs at him and says, "but he's making the saves".

[tmac70]

Watched all of the games, we have allowed 3 plus goals in every game but two. We may be weak in net but our huge weakness is bad defensive turnovers and defense.  Brodie had a bad game against Anaheim but was worse last night against the Sharks. How about Russell tonight, losses a one on one battle with Pavelski their smallest guy, crap like that cant happen.

 

We have yet to lose a game based on goal tending IMHO, where a soft one has cost us the game. We have lost 4 games because of very poor defense.

[geos]

It would have been nice to hear we were at least in the equation when Bernier, Bishop etc were available.

Feaster's unorthodox methods of trying to fill holes I hope are going to be squashed by Burke in the future.

IMO, it does look like he hung his hat on Ramo to replace Kiprusoff.

I do appreciate the 'glut' of prospect goalies, but unfortunately, I think Ramo is currently a prospect under an unprospect-like contract.

Say what you like about JMac, but he deserves some credit for coming up with some late point-earning saves that you need your goalie to be able to do.

Some have implied the Flames rolled in spite of him, and that isn't really true. A weak goal here and there is only relevent when it is why we lost. That hasn't happenened.

You know he's helping when Hrudey laughs at him and says, "but he's making the saves".

 

I don't think we were in the running on Bernier or Bishop because Feaster wrongly assumed a former NHL washout turned middling KHL goalie would somehow become an elite force. You can see it in the contract. It's easily one of the worst contracts the Flames have signed in years. $5.5M for a guy that that couldn't play in the NHL the first time and hasn't proved anything since? Really?

 

So yes, all the eggs are in the Ramo basket from Feaster's perspective. Likely one of the big reasons why Burke is now here to guide his little assistant... oops, I mean the GM... in the right direction. 

 

Ramo's play (small sample, I agree) has suggested to me he is at best an NHL backup and likely better off in the AHL. No upgrade on JMac.

 

What I want to see is Berra get some games at the NHL level. I think he has more high end potential, though a bit more risk too (could end up like a Karlsson). But at least he's on a contract sized appropriately for his track record. The Ramo deal is just absurd. 

Here is how the contract discussion went down with Ramo:

 

In private:

 

Ramo: "So, agent, how much can I expect in a deal with the Flames?"

Agent: "Well, as an unproven guy, maybe $750k to $800k on a one year."

Ramo: "Ok, sounds good, good opportunity for me to prove myself."

 

Feaster calls in:

Feaster: "Hi guys, let's get a deal done here."

Agent: "Sure, let's see what you have in mind."

Feaster: "Let's start with $5.5M over two years, one way."

Agent: "DONE!"

 

Feaster hangs up:

Ramo: "Are you freaking kidding me!?!??!?"

Agent: "You better send me a big tip for this one kid."

[Lucid_Flame91]

Berra came up big after being pulled the previous night(?) 

Heat won in overtime, Waiting to see if Berra plays 3 games in 3 nights or if they hand Brossoit the game tonight vs the texas stars.

[DirtyDeeds]

Those of you complaining about giving Ramo 5.5m over 2 years should consider that likely we wouldn't have him here without paying him somewhere around that much. While I don't know how much he was making in the KHL I suspect it was a similar or maybe higher figure.

 

Geos: The conversation probably went more like..

 

Feaster: So what is it going to take to get Ramo over here?

Agent: Well he is making almost 3mil a year now.

Feaster: Would he consider 5mil/2yrs?

Agent: make it 5.5 for 2 years and that will cover his costs of moving over here and unsettling his family.

[phoenix66]

Gotta feel for Ramo this game, hasnt played in almost two weeks and gets put in against the best team in the league right now.

 

Hard to blame him on any of the goals so far, his defense is letting him down and Calgary is just taking too many penalties.

 

I would hate to see him getting judged unfairly based on this game.

No kidding..how the heck was Butler a 0 on this game? He was a turnover machine.

That being said, last night was exactly what I was worried about. Put the guy in cold against one of the best teams and hang him out to dry.

He had some unbelievable saves, could have easily been 10-3, but he had a couple softies im sure hed like back.when your team claws back to within a goal, hes gotta slam the door..and its hard to do that without any rhythm. Kipper probably couldnt have saved us last night

I hope they come right back to him next game. Let him grab hold of this job or prove he needs some ahl time and give berra the reins for a bit

Ortios play in Alaska just proves that jmac needs to go..berra/ramo push each other here..Ortio gets the reins in abbotsford..brossoit in Alaska.

[jjgallow]

Ramo deserves at least 10 games before further decisions are made imho.

 

That being said, it becomes clear on here that when JMac wins us a game but lets in more than two goals, everyone says "we won in spite of our goaltending".

 

When Ramo loses a game and lets 5 past him, it's "We have no defense".

 

I agree with many of the comments in here since last night's game.  Except they apply to JMac's games (which he won) as well.

[phoenix66]

Ramo deserves at least 10 games before further decisions are made imho.

 

That being said, it becomes clear on here that when JMac wins us a game but lets in more than two goals, everyone says "we won in spite of our goaltending".

 

When Ramo loses a game and lets 5 past him, it's "We have no defense".

 

I agree with many of the comments in here since last night's game.  Except they apply to JMac's games (which he won) as well.

I do agree, there were goals last night I think jmac would have had and he deserves credit for points we have gotten. The mistakes on defense lat night were just magnified with ramo there.

My main point all along has just been if you are in a position to develop players then develop them. Jmac should be playing 1 in 5 games. If youre going to sit ramo or berra or whoever on the bench in favor of a guy whos short term, then you may as well just go sign bryzgalov and let berra and ramo fight it out in the ahl this year.

There are going to be more games like last night this year. The secret is out of the bag, the flames are going to work you hard and make you earn your 2 points. Riding jmac will probably raise us to a mid pack finish, get us a pick in the teens, but then where are we at the end of the year? Going into next year with a green goalie.

[cross16]

Those of you complaining about giving Ramo 5.5m over 2 years should consider that likely we wouldn't have him here without paying him somewhere around that much. While I don't know how much he was making in the KHL I suspect it was a similar or maybe higher figure.

 

Geos: The conversation probably went more like..

 

Feaster: So what is it going to take to get Ramo over here?

Agent: Well he is making almost 3mil a year now.

Feaster: Would he consider 5mil/2yrs?

Agent: make it 5.5 for 2 years and that will cover his costs of moving over here and unsettling his family.

I won't speak for geo on this one as to why he things Ramo is a bad deal but i do agree with him. Your right dd that he was making a fair bit over there but IMO the flames still owned all the power. IMO Ramo needs the flames more than the flames needed him and if it took as much as it did then I think the flames should have told him to get lost. This is he NHL and it was the flames offering him a chance to show he can play in the NHL and that alone should have been enough for Ramo to consider it and if not are the flames really any worse off? Personally I don't think Ramo should have gotten anything over 2 million and it is a bad contract IMO

[phoenix66]

I won't speak for geo on this one as to why he things Ramo is a bad deal but i do agree with him. Your right dd that he was making a fair bit over there but IMO the flames still owned all the power. IMO Ramo needs the flames more than the flames needed him and if it took as much as it did then I think the flames should have told him to get lost. This is he NHL and it was the flames offering him a chance to show he can play in the NHL and that alone should have been enough for Ramo to consider it and if not are the flames really any worse off? Personally I don't think Ramo should have gotten anything over 2 million and it is a bad contract IMO

But again, we dont know if its a good or bad deal yet. A view of capgeek shows that 2.6M is pretty much the going rate for a new starting goaltender who is riding a reputation but has never shown they can carry a team. 2.6M is a low salary for a starter.

Ramo was defiitely brought here to be the starter.

We all may be in agreement that the Nhl is the premiere league, but people constantly writing off the Khl as a recreational pickup beer league is getting a little tiresome. Its the 2nd best league in the world, and Ramo was essentially the best goalie in that league. For him to receive what amounts to a starters base nhl salary isnt unreasonable.

Is 2.6 lots of money? Yes

Is he unproven as an nhl starter? Yes.

But so were Dubnyk, varlamov, Fasth,Bernier, neuvirth..when they got their contracts..sometimes you win (fasth 2.4m) sometimes you lose (dubnyk 3.75M) but thats the going rate.

Success in one league certainly does not always mean success in the other, no argument there, ..he might end up being a total bust, no argument there.... but his credentials warranted the belief he could come here and be the starter. He was given only a 2 year contract at the lower end of a starters pay scale

To suggest he should be grovelling for spare change just for the golden opportunity to play in the glorious nhl is a bit overblown.

He wanted a commitment to make the move..fair request, he got one..now the onus is on him to earn the next one

[cross16]

But again, we dont know if its a good or bad deal yet. A view of capgeek shows that 2.6M is pretty much the going rate for a new starting goaltender who is riding a reputation but has never shown they can carry a team. 2.6M is a low salary for a starter.

Ramo was defiitely brought here to be the starter.

We all may be in agreement that the Nhl is the premiere league, but people constantly writing off the Khl as a recreational pickup beer league is getting a little tiresome. Its the 2nd best league in the world, and Ramo was essentially the best goalie in that league. For him to receive what amounts to a starters base nhl salary isnt unreasonable.

Is 2.6 lots of money? Yes

Is he unproven as an nhl starter? Yes.

But so were Dubnyk, varlamov, Fasth,Bernier, neuvirth..when they got their contracts..sometimes you win (fasth 2.4m) sometimes you lose (dubnyk 3.75M) but thats the going rate.

Success in one league certainly does not always mean success in the other, no argument there, ..he might end up being a total bust, no argument there.... but his credentials warranted the belief he could come here and be the starter. He was given only a 2 year contract at the lower end of a starters pay scale

To suggest he should be grovelling for spare change just for the golden opportunity to play in the glorious nhl is a bit overblown.

He wanted a commitment to make the move..fair request, he got one..now the onus is on him to earn the next one

Big difference though is all of those guys got that money after they proved they can play in the NHL. Fasth is a good example as it only took 1 mill to get him over and then once he proved himself he got his money. Ramo got his money, and he's security of a two year deal, with having zero evidence to prove he can even play in he NHL. I don't have any disrespect for he KHL but it's a fair ways below the calibre of the NHL especially in the talent level of shooters so for me I don't think what you do over there should impact your contract here. It should have been a one year prove it deal and if he said no and wanted to stay for more money than best off luck to him. I don't dispute he idea of trying Ramo, althought IMO it was not a good move frond day one, but I do have a problem with how much money they are paying him.

[jjgallow]

If you don't know if it's a bad deal yet, it probably is.  Contracts should be earned.

 

Cervenka.

[cross16]

If you don't know if it's a bad deal yet, it probably is.  Contracts should be earned.

 

Cervenka.

Cervenka is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. One year deal and a low salary so when it didn't work was easy to say goodbye.

[Lucid_Flame91]

Brossoit got absolutely lit up, the heat gave up a 3-1 lead to finish the game 3-9, brossoit was not pulled.

 

To be fair 5 goals were on the power play

[jjgallow]

Brossoit got absolutely lit up, the heat gave up a 3-1 lead to finish the game 3-9, brossoit was not pulled.

 

To be fair 5 goals were on the power play

They actually put him in a full AHL game?

 

Okay, now I'm mad, lol.

 

This is exactly what they did to Ortio just a few years back.

 

I can't fathom what they were thinking.  Brossoit was seriously struggling in the ECHL.   

 

The kid's barely 20 years old, fresh out of the WHL, the Flames and All of us had already seen enough to know that he is a Great prospect, but Not ready at this point for the AHL.

 

http://theahl.com/stats/game-summary.php?game_id=1011180

 

When I look at the score sheet, I can see why he wasn't pulled....the goals came on late, far too late to do anything about it.

 

They were also mostly powerplay goals.

 

42 shots is ridiculous.

 

What this tells me is that the Flames lack strong defensive prospects.   I know they have some pieces, but it's not enough.

 

If the Flames respond to this the way they responded with Ortio, we'll never hear of Brossoit again for a couple years.

 

Either way, what a brutal way to wreck a kid's confidence.

 

Had they just left in in the ECHL for the year, he would have struggled at first but at least he'd have a chance at some decent development.

 

Meanwhile, Ortio's easily getting shutouts in the ECHL, which doesn't really do much for his development but at least keeps him fresh.

 

It is unbelievably frustrating to see the organization make the same mistakes over, and over, and over again with their goaltending prospects (and their three "NHL starters", for that matter).

 

How hard is it to put Brossoit in the ECHL, have Ortio start for the Heat, Leave Gillies alone and out of the mess, and trade one of our three "Starters"?    

 

I just don't understand what the Flames think they're going to accomplish here having three "NHL starter" goalies, none of which are actually good enough to be NHL starters.   Do they think one of them might actually secretly be an all-star and we're Cup-bound this year?  And they're willing to wreck the development of not just one, but two of our future goaltending prospects, at the beginning of a rebuild??

 

We are Really going to have to hope Gillies turns out, because he's our only prospect not subjected to this system.

[Carty]

For those that may have missed this...

 

 

I am glad to hear this...   Ramo needs a few games to try and find his groove, and the Flames need to see what he is capable of...

 

I just wish this would have happened before the road trip against some of the better teams in the league...

[DirtyDeeds]

Meanwhile, Ortio's easily getting shutouts in the ECHL, which doesn't really do much for his development but at least keeps him fresh.

 

It is unbelievably frustrating to see the organization make the same mistakes over, and over, and over again with their goaltending prospects (and their three "NHL starters", for that matter).

 

How hard is it to put Brossoit in the ECHL, have Ortio start for the Heat, Leave Gillies alone and out of the mess, and trade one of our three "Starters"?    

 

I just don't understand what the Flames think they're going to accomplish here having three "NHL starter" goalies, none of which are actually good enough to be NHL starters.   Do they think one of them might actually secretly be an all-star and we're Cup-bound this year?  And they're willing to wreck the development of not just one, but two of our future goaltending prospects, at the beginning of a rebuild??

There are 3 potential Starters for the Flames. They only want 2 of them on the Flames competing at one time.

Those 3 are:

1. Joey Mac
2. Karri Ramo
3. Rito Berra

ATM Rito Berra is "the starter on the Heat" so he gets lots of icetime. It doesn't matter if you think that Laurent Brossoit or Ortio should be starting on the Heat they want to give the older guys the first go at the starter position here. If Berra gets called up then Ramo will be the automatic starter for the Heat. I don't see the Flames sending JMac down as he would have to clear waivers.

 

Soon as you realize what they are doing and why they are doing it you can drop your mancrush on Ortio and realize he will get his shot at the Heat but not likely this year. He is not destined to get any shots at the Flames until they are done with 1 or more of these 3.

 

It is simple to understand here JJ. Ortio can be backup for the Heat or start for the Alaska Aces. Take your pick and send a email off to the Flames, then lets quit with the complaining.