kehatch
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Everything posted by kehatch
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I get the joke. But the coach doesn't try to lose games. Ortio sat for 8 games (most in the press box) and played 1 on a B2B. He sat a second game then got a start (but only because of an injury) He sat 11 games (so Ramo could "get going") and was demoted He is recalled but sits 5 games (this time so Hiller could "get going") He finally gets his first consecutive set of games (3) plays well in the first 2 but gets sat after the 3 start isn't good He only sits one game (Hiller is predictably bad) and plays well in his start. But now he is sitting again (despite the good start) because they are supposedly on a pre-determined schedule Ortio didn't do much early to make a case for himself, but man the organization hasn't exactly made it a priority to put him in a position to gain confidence or find a groove.
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If we are in next year mode (and I agree we are) then you give Ortio a start after a good game. You give Hiller / Backs a start after Ortio has a bad game. Failing to reward the kid after a strong start is really poor development however you try and rationalize it.
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Nobody is suggesting he plays every game. I am certainly not. But show me one time this season a goalie has come off of a 920 game and not started the next game when it wasn't a back to back (barring when Ramo got sick). There is zero reason to start Hiller over Ortio tonight. This "we have a schedule" is just another BS answer. The fact that so many people are upset (media, social media, forums everywhere) about a decision to not start a mediocre goalie just shows you how inexplicable it is. Even the very objective media types like Steinberg and Haynes are at a loss to explain this decision. Given Hartley's ongoing string of odd decisions (that rarely get results) its tough to defend him on this one.
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I am annoyed enough that I did a full break down. Here is is. Rotation/Schedule: Hartley doesn't like three goalies. From his perspective he only had two goalies. So no starts for Otrio. But neither of the two were stepping it up so he went with a rotation. No idea what the plan is: The decision was taken out of Hartley's hands. Ramo was demoted and they were down to two goalies. Ortio was limited to one start at the second half of the back to back. Ramo starts (Win/Lose/Draw): Hiller gets hurt so Ramo gets the call back. Ramo gets to play to "get him going". Ortio sits for 12-games despite Ramo being pretty mediocre. Merit: Hiller comes back so Ortio is finally waived. Starts are mostly based on merit. Ramo starts (Win/Lose/Draw): Hartley says he wants to give Hiller the same opportunity that Ramo got so he gets a string of starts. Rotation/Schedule: Apparently there is a predetermined rotation again. At least until one of Hartley's guys has a decent start or he just changes his mind again. This has been an incredibly inconsistent set of decisions by the coach. And every time Ortio is in a position to get some starts he changes the method to something that prevents him from getting starts. First he won't play three goalies. Then Ramo gets his string of starts. Then Hiller gets his string of starts. Now its a "schedule" again. Considering he is the only goalie with some future upside that makes no sense on a rebuilding team!!!! The coach is out of touch and has developed a preference for his guys. Time to move on.
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Hartley says he is playing to a preset schedule now so all goalies get time. Which is ridiculous and completely inconsistent. Consciously or unconsciously he has found reasons not to play Ortio all season. Either its a schedule, or he only is playing two goalies, or another goalie has played well, or whatever. Its always a different and completely inconsistent and always in favor of his guys. I don't want Hartley back next season.
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From respected Flames writer Darren Haynes: https://twitter.com/DarrenWHaynes/status/705436546430668800
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The only justification to not play Ortio tonight is if he is unavailable due to illness, injury, or because they have to send him down / recall him due to the Backstrom trade. I will hold judgement until we know what is what. EDIT: Looks like that isn't the case as Ortio is the back-up according to morning skate. This really irks me. Ortio has played better in 3 of his last 4 starts then Hiller has most of the season. Plus the Flames need to play him to see what they have in him. Playing Hiller right now makes less then no sense. Shame on Hartley.
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I think the Flames are going to have to get at least one of Smid, Engelland, or Wideman off the roster next season. The top 3 is set with Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton. One of the bad contracts will likely stick around and play (probably Engelland). Jokipakka is now in the picture. Plus Wotherspoon, Nakladal, and Kulak have looked good in call ups. It's going to be tough to have any semblance of always earned if you don't play at least one of the younger guys. That brings you to six. The second bad contract can fill number 7 (if you can't move it) but you need to move one. I think Engelland can be moved this summer with one more season left. But of the three he is the guy to keep. Wideman can probably be moved with salary retained. Smid is a tough one. If he is hurt the decision is made for you. But if he is healthy it probably makes sense to park him as the number 7D. Someone needs to sit the bench and a buyout just extends the cap problem and a demotion gives you no cap space.
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Agreed. That coupled with a willingness to pay veterans too much money and a general refusal of the organization to rebuild is what set the stage for our long playoff drought.
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I think Ortio will get plenty of starts to finish the season. Ramo and Hiller got a string of starts win/lose/draw and I think the Flames will give him the same opportunity. Is it possible that Hartley doesn't have the faith in Ortio to give him those starts? Sure. Is it possible Backstrom gives Hartley the excuse he needs not to start Ortio? Sure. Is it possible they try running with a 3 goalie system again and that messes with the goalies? Sure. But none of that has happened yet and the Flames have given no sign that it will happen. There isn't any point in debating about the terrible things that could happen. Let's see who gets the start tonight and go from there.
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Sure it is. Pick for nothing.
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This debate won't end because you obvious believe the Flames should take the sink or swim approach. Roll the dice and see where the end up. Better that then spending assets to acquire someone else until we are certain we don't have an in house solution. Meanwhile most everyone else doesn't agree with that. Ortio hasn't earned our confidence in the short term and Gilles/MacDonald are a ways off. Personally I think your approach is impractical. It's the type of approach you take once you have an established backup in net who is earning starts. You don't take it when the guy your talking about hasn't been good 80 percent of the season and who lost the starting job in the AHL. What I don't understand is why you are so against the idea of brining on a young goalie to tandem with Ortio. You have come up with extreme scenarios of trading the farm or bankrupting the cap if we go that route. But in reality we see teams successfully trade for a young starter all of the time. If you do that and Ortio is spectacular in tandem then you have a really great problem on your hands. If you don't do that and Ortio is terrible next season you have a really bad problem on your hands. Poor goaltending has derailed more rebuilds then anything else. It would be irresponsible for Treliving to not at least attempt to address the situation. If the right target isn't available then maybe he is forced to sign Ramo on a short term deal. If Ortio earns a contract he can play tandem. But that's a plan B. There is no reasonable plan C of Ortio and Joe Backup in my opinion.
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This is a time where I think Treliving would need to provide direction to Hartley. It's Hartley's job to win games. But with where we are in the standings there are other needs that have to be addressed. If the Flames have any interest in Ortio then he needs to play 9 more games to maintain his RFA status. Plus we need to see what he does over a sustained period of time. The funny thing is I don't think playing the young guys conflicts with the idea of winning. We weren't winning with the vets in 60+ games and Ortio has looked at least as good as Hiller has.
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That is what is key for me. Right now they have Ramo as a plan B. But after July 1 they may not. Not sure this gets done before the TDL. But I do think Treliving at least tries to do something St or before the draft.
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Not a good night by Ortio against Ottawa. Followed his MO though. A number of beautiful athletic saves and then he got flustered and gave up a bunch in a flurry. Ortio looks fantastic for a period/game or two and follows that up with a stinker. He seems to struggle to track the puck, especially when there is traffic or a lot of activity. That leads to poor positioning. Like Hiller he has a tendency to go down too early. He also needs to work on his rebound control. Hopefully the Flames give him next game. I want to see if he can respond. There is no reason not to at this point and he was very good for 7 periods or so and I think he has earned another game.
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Not sure why your complaining when we have Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton as our top 3 and we have Kylington, Anderson, and Hickey in the pipe. At net they have Gilles, MacDonald, and Ortio in the pipe. There are only so many development spots available. I don't agree with every drafting decision the Flames have made but I don't think its fair to say they bypassed the BPA. They might have bypassed your BPA, but they have their own book. I do agree they will need to fill in some holes via trade and free agency. That is true for every team. The made a good start with the Hamilton trade. I would like to see another top 4 goalie if the contract price is worth it. I would also like to see a young goalie for next season and that will probably need to be rectified via trade. I don't agree that another top 4D trumps getting a goalie. First of all there is no reason to go after only one. Second, we have a solid top 4 and a lot of D contracts next season where as we have zero goalies signed. None. Tough to ice a team without a goalie.
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I don't think it's that dire. We don't have any sure fire guys. But I like Hickey and a few others. D men often come out of no where.
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What are you talking about? People have said he played well. The only contentious posts are the ones responding to your suggestion that the Flames should no longer be looking for a goalie because Ortio has two good games. I think your seeing shadows. I have never like Ortio. That isn't a secret. But I have also been one of Hartley's harshest critics for not giving the guy an opportunity. I won't speak for anyone else, but I want the kids to succeed. But that doesn't mean I think the Flames should give up on finding a goalie. We have zero NHL goalies inked for next season. Our options for re-signing are a guy who has been terrible (Hiller), one who has been wildly inconsistent but who has averaged below mediocre (Ramo), and one who lost the starting job in the AHL (Ortio). I am not willing on gambling on an Ortio / garbage tandem next season while I am gambling that Gilles is the future starter for the Flames. That is reckless. Two good games don't change that assessment. None of that is an indictment of Ortio's last two games. None of that is a suggestion that the Flames should spend all of our picks and prospects on a 6-million dollar mediocre veteran. None of that is giving up on or removing opportunities for Gilles and Ortio down the road. Its is a practical opinion that the Flames should be in the market for a youngish NHL ready goalie who can play tandem with someone like Ortio (if he continues to play well) or Ramo (if he does not) next season. This gives us a bit of insurance heading into next season and it gives us another shot of finding a long term starter.
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Wow TWO straight games? TWO!!! Sheesh, I didn't know it was such a high number. In that case I agree. Let's all go off the deep end on the terrible fans who aren't ready to hang the future around Ortio's neck. Hogwash I say. I mean we aren't talking about one game. Two. TWO! I wish I had some more time to put up some crazy pictures to extenuate my point on how utterly amazing that is. It's a game changer. Stop yesterday's strategy folks we have two good games here. I don't want to hear any nonsense about the rest of his AHL or NHL season. I definitely don't want to even consider looking into additional options. Two baskets. Bah. I will just stack my eggs sky high. What could happen? Two games! TWO!!! Now I just need to figure out if Gaudreau, Brodie, or Ortio slots first on important core players. Two games. Wowzers.
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Your putting to much bank on unproven prospects. Ortio was terrible early and has one good and one decent game under his belt, Gilles is missing most of this season and is a ways off, and MacDonald is a project. Nobody is suggesting depleting the prospect pool or spending the last dime on a goalie. It isn't nearly as dramatic, extreme, or as black and white as you make it.
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Do you have any idea how ridiculous this is? The only way to build a team is with crap goaltending otherwise the team will make money and the ownership won't allow management to make the team better? What a load of nonsense. This isn't brain surgery. The Flames have three good centres to build around. They have three good top 3 D to build around. They have a couple of good wingers to build around. They don't have a good goalie to build around. Also not brain surgery. Trying to develop players in an environment where every mistake turns into a goal isn't good. Trying to build a team without good goaltending isn't good. Waiting until your on the verge to start your search for a goalie (and likely fail) isn't good. Again not brain surgery. If Ortio and Gilles turn out and you have another starter in your pocket that isn't a bad thing. It's like having too many top end D or too many number one centres. It would be a fantastic problem to have. However if they dont turn it (very possible) and you haven't found a starter... The Flames need a goalie. I can't even believe that is a discussion.
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You might have trouble convincing a lot of people Crawford is average. Including Chicago who gave him a 6 x 6 contract. Sensationalize much?
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That's a lot of words. But none if it changes the fact that the Flames have zero NHL goalies signed for next season and have had league worst goaltending this season.
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Agreed. When do people think it will be time to find a goalie? Once every other piece is in place? And what do you then? Plant your magic goalie seeds and hope one appears? How many teams have we seen fail because they couldn't find a goalie? They call it building from the net out for a reason. Waiting on a goalie is about the worst things the Flames could do.
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I haven't hated Engelland with Hamilton. If Smid is out and the Flames somehow move Engelland this summer (not impossible) there should be room for the young guys.