2024 NHL draft - A New Hope

[bosn111]

There is a lot of back and forth about the concept of keeping or trading certain players, and also whether trading established players for draft picks makes any sense.

 

The easiest way to look at the discussion is like this: 

 

Who are players currently on the Flames roster who would be considered to be good mentors for young players? The answer will surprise a few people for sure one way or another. The argument for trading or keeping vets to mentor young guys should be based on the above. 
 

I know some fans want to stay loyal to players that have been with the team a while and have worked hard for the team (see Anderson, Backlund, Mangiapane). Loyalty is great when things are going well. Right now for the Flames, that is not the case.

 

The Flames are in a major retool (maybe even rebuild) which isn’t even in question. So for a retool of this style, what do the Flames need?

 

1. Determine what the team identity will be.

 

2. Determine what players on the current roster fit and which don’t.

 

3. Determine what value any maybe players have for the team vs for another team.

 

4. Figure out what you have in prospects to know who is arriving on the big club, when, and what placeholders are needed to buy time.

 

5. Trade players who don’t match the identity and the players who are maybes but who are better value in trade than keep.

 

I really like Anderson, he has done well and I never wanted him traded, but time is moving on. He is no longer under 25 and continuing to grow as a player. On many teams he is a top pair RD. The issue is that I have never heard or seen mentor as one of his strengths. If we are looking at what is best for the Flames in 3-5 years, I don’t see Ras at 33 years old + being a piece that works well, and value in trade will have gone down. This includes a new, higher contract.

 

Weegar to me shows more mentor material. He is signed essentially to retirement and plays at a similar level to Ras.

 

As a RD, Ras holds a high value in trade. Yes it would be a loss to move him, but getting a top 15 pick for him, or more in a package, holds more value in my opinion for down the road than keeping him.

 

Mange has less value than Ras, alone not likely anything more than a 2nd, if that. Don’t dislike the player, but he is a stop gap in a retool, not a core piece.

 

Vladar, Markstrom, Hanley, Greer, Rooney, even Kuzmenko fit in this category for me. Backlund as well as I think he retires as one of the last retool moves.

 

Kadri and Huberdeau are sticking around a while due to contracts. They are complimentary pieces, not core.

 

The current players I see as building blocks in the retool

 

Weegar (veteran D mentor, good enough to play top pair another 5 years then slide down when passed until retirement).

 

Coleman (Veteran middle 6, good mentor, re-sign to retirement contract in a couple years)

 

Wolf (future 1 goalie)

 

Miromanov, Pachal (likely both mid or bottom pair, but both seem good so far)

 

Zary, Sharangovich (both stepping up at the right time)

 

Any of the above could be considered core in the future, but that remains to be seen.

 

Other possible pieces: (each on the list for different reasons)

 

Kylington, Coronato, Pelletier, Pospisil, Poirier, Kuznetsov, Bruz, Solovyov, Grushnikov, Honzek.

 

If the goal is to have competition to be the best lineup in 3-5 years, you need players who will be hitting their stride at that time, and enough options to choose the best. I see 3 F, 3D and 1 G as solid pieces moving forward with 2 F remaining due to contracts. Need another 8 F, 4 D and 1 G down the road. That’s why trading Anderson, Mange and Markstrom, even in package deals for high draft picks makes sense. More possibilities in 3-5 years. 
 

That’s my take anyway.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

If we end up 8th, we get passed by the 9th place team with a unlikely lotto win.

There are teams that never win lotto picks.

The year Lafrenier went 1st, NY was 16th and ended up 1st.

If the odds were that unlikely for a team out of the top 5 to win, how did they?

 

Not really serious.  I hope we geta good player at 8.

 

8 is interesting because Tij comes into play.  He's arguably ranked 9-13 right now.  Taking him at 8 is reaching but forgivable possibly.  

[Sarasti]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

8 is interesting because Tij comes into play.  He's arguably ranked 9-13 right now.  Taking him at 8 is reaching but forgivable possibly.  

 

Hes definitely a scorer which is something we lack 

[jjgallow]

41 minutes ago, Sarasti said:

 

Hes definitely a scorer which is something we lack 

 

I actually think there's a good amount of dead weight above him.

 

I have him in top 10 no problems at all.

 

Unfortunately I don't think I'm the only one.  It's not guaranteed that he'll be available 

[conundrumed]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I actually think there's a good amount of dead weight above him.

 

I have him in top 10 no problems at all.

 

Unfortunately I don't think I'm the only one.  It's not guaranteed that he'll be available 

Evidently these guys agree with you:

https://www.eliteprospects.com/draft-center/eliteprospects.com

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Evidently these guys agree with you:

https://www.eliteprospects.com/draft-center/eliteprospects.com

 

Yikes, a top 10 featuring 5 F, not to mention the top 20 consising of 14 F.

Isn't this considered a D heavy draft?

Anyway, what do I know.

[redfire11]

19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Yikes, a top 10 featuring 5 F, not to mention the top 20 consising of 14 F.

Isn't this considered a D heavy draft?

Anyway, what do I know.

Looks like we will have some decent d falling to our Van 1st

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I actually think there's a good amount of dead weight above him.

 

I have him in top 10 no problems at all.

 

Unfortunately I don't think I'm the only one.  It's not guaranteed that he'll be available 

 

Tij is a late bloomers/riser like his dad.  Good trajectory for him to be on.

[robrob74]

The Flames should have traded Marky. CanThe play of late lower his value? 

[robrob74]

7 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Tij is a late bloomers/riser like his dad.  Good trajectory for him to be on.

Iginla's draft wasn't that deep. Some good players but not very deep.

 

In a redraft looks like he'd go first overall. Giguere might be the closest to 2nd overall.

 

I don't see another star player besides Shane Doan, and for me he's just an extremely good loyal player. Although, he might have had the same thing as Iginla, not really building a quality team around him. he might have been better than Iggy but more the all-round game. 
 

Redden, Berard, etc were really good players, but not stars...
 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, redfire11 said:

Looks like we will have some decent d falling to our Van 1st

I really, really doubt that this list reflects NHL scouts. lol

It's not a great list at all, is all I'm thinking.

Greentree vs Iginla is high on my future watch list post-draft. I have them pretty much inseparable.

[Thebrewcrew]

26 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I really, really doubt that this list reflects NHL scouts. lol

It's not a great list at all, is all I'm thinking.

Greentree vs Iginla is high on my future watch list post-draft. I have them pretty much inseparable.

Where would have Eiserman at?

 

One scenario I’ve wondered about is where all of the D are gone and you’re left with Eiserman, Iginla and Greentree 

[JTech780]

With what is likely going to be a top 10 pick, I think the Flames have to find a player with dynamic qualities. They just can’t play it safe.

 

They don’t have that top end talent in the system, no top line forwards, no first pairing defensemen. Not sure that that player will be available at 8-10 in this draft, but they need to at least take a swing at one. 
 

I haven’t had a chance to watch the players available in this draft enough to know who to go after.

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Where would have Eiserman at?

 

One scenario I’ve wondered about is where all of the D are gone and you’re left with Eiserman, Iginla and Greentree 

Excellent question. I think I'd have to go with Eiserman. Iginla and Greentree are really a saw off for me.

For the long version, lol, I don't think Eiserman has had the talent around him like when they elevated him last year from U17 to play with that great U18 team.

As an aside, if Musty didn't go to the O, he likely would have had Perrault or Leonard's spot on that line. That would have changed everyone's perspective.

I was told the NDTP was highly offended, yet guys like Matt Tkachuk did the same. Then it was pointed out to me, "they still bring in OHLer Terrance, but they never invite Musty for internationals".

So why you mad US? Great players have done it before, why does he get black-balled?

 

But yeah. I'm not buying Eiserman's stock-drop. I'm just not buying it, honestly. Too many eyes and too many swords hyperbolizing negatives. I doubt NHL scouts are buying it either.

[travel_dude]

23 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

With what is likely going to be a top 10 pick, I think the Flames have to find a player with dynamic qualities. They just can’t play it safe.

 

They don’t have that top end talent in the system, no top line forwards, no first pairing defensemen. Not sure that that player will be available at 8-10 in this draft, but they need to at least take a swing at one. 
 

I haven’t had a chance to watch the players available in this draft enough to know who to go after.

 

The safe player option is so mundane for us to consider.

They might be a good player long term and have a good NHL career, but is that enough?

Monahan was a safe pick and could have been a great pick if injuries hadn't derailed his career.

Tkachuk was a strong pick, but we managed a top 5 pick that year.

Unless we have a shot at a top pairing D potential this year, I would lean towards a risky F.

More towards a C or C/RW than anything on LW.

 

Iggy Jr is a sentimental pick and probably a safe one.

Would the name alone make fans question the logic of it?

 

[conundrumed]

38 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

With what is likely going to be a top 10 pick, I think the Flames have to find a player with dynamic qualities. They just can’t play it safe.

 

They don’t have that top end talent in the system, no top line forwards, no first pairing defensemen. Not sure that that player will be available at 8-10 in this draft, but they need to at least take a swing at one. 
 

I haven’t had a chance to watch the players available in this draft enough to know who to go after.

Berkly Catton might be the guy for you! For a dman, Dickinson bleeds 1D potential.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

The Flames should have traded Marky. CanThe play of late lower his value? 

 

Nobody wants this one, I'm biting.   lol.

 

To zero in a hurry.  More because of his contract than him.  but yeah.

 

But we're not entirely without trade pieces.  there rest are just more painful.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

Iginla's draft wasn't that deep. Some good players but not very deep.

 

In a redraft looks like he'd go first overall. Giguere might be the closest to 2nd overall.

 

I don't see another star player besides Shane Doan, and for me he's just an extremely good loyal player. Although, he might have had the same thing as Iginla, not really building a quality team around him. he might have been better than Iggy but more the all-round game. 
 

Redden, Berard, etc were really good players, but not stars...
 

 

A lot of parallels to that draft, I feel.

 

The assist-heavy "D-strength".   The general weakness.   The Iginla.  lol.

 

Obvious differences too. No Celebrini.  I "like" to think this draft is a Little stronger but we really don't know that yet.    I really do believe this draft has a few future legends in it.   But it most likely doesn't have 10 legends in the top 10.   It has like maybe 2.   

 

History suggests we should tread carefully, and go for high, high skill.  Put extra weight on intelligent players.   And not too much weight on giants.      I really would almost entirely ignore position, and make sure we are one of the teams that doesn't land one of the dudes, which there will be.

 

I think you can filter a lot of them right away by avoiding the top 10s who can't score goals (even in junior).   There's an exception to every rule but Most of that group i feel will disappoint.   Even if they do end up NHLers (which they most likely will).

 

Playoffs matter.  Need to know who has an extra gear.  Yell at them later for not using it in the regular season.  Unfortunately this is why Tij may actually be out of our reach, unless we literally lose every game going forward or win the lotto and downgrade.

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Tij is a late bloomers/riser like his dad.  Good trajectory for him to be on.

 

yeah his Dad was okay I guess.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

A lot of parallels to that draft, I feel.

 

The assist-heavy "D-strength".   The general weakness.   The Iginla.  lol.

 

Obvious differences too. No Celebrini.  I "like" to think this draft is a Little stronger but we really don't know that yet.    I really do believe this draft has a few future legends in it.   But it most likely doesn't have 10 legends in the top 10.   It has like maybe 2.   

 

History suggests we should tread carefully, and go for high, high skill.  Put extra weight on intelligent players.   And not too much weight on giants.      I really would almost entirely ignore position, and make sure we are one of the teams that doesn't land one of the dudes, which there will be.

 

I think you can filter a lot of them right away by avoiding the top 10s who can't score goals (even in junior).   There's an exception to every rule but Most of that group i feel will disappoint.   Even if they do end up NHLers (which they most likely will).

 

Playoffs matter.  Need to know who has an extra gear.  Yell at them later for not using it in the regular season.  Unfortunately this is why Tij may actually be out of our reach, unless we literally lose every game going forward or win the lotto and downgrade.

when I went through the selections by round in Wikipedia that draft looks pretty ok. It has decent players throughout. Kipper was drafted. We had two of the best goalies of that draft too, Kipper and Giguere...

 

M. Savard was in a later round as well. Not a bad one, and I think orgs were just starting to realize the importance of scouting as the Cap happened after it. So I think back then it was normal to find gems later...

 

im with you on trying to go for the Skill and not go for a guy just because he's big.

[Thebrewcrew]

Iginla has 8 goals in 6 games against Wenatchee

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, robrob74 said:

The Flames should have traded Marky. CanThe play of late lower his value? 

 

I seem to remember that we traded away three "core" pieces of the lineup just prior to TDL.

His value will be whatever teams are interested in a goalie, not so much his season finish.

I'm more concerned that they decide they need to keep him during the re-tool so we don't finish last.

[jjgallow]

20 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Iginla has 8 goals in 6 games against Wenatchee

 

don't believe the hype, they're just letting him score those goals because of his Dad.

[Sarasti]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

don't believe the hype, they're just letting him score those goals because of his Dad.

 

Jokes aside. Iginla has looked pretty dynamic in the O-zone so far.

47 goals in his first full regular season too.

I'm starting to dig the idea of potentially drafting him.

[conundrumed]

10 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Iginla has 8 goals in 6 games against Wenatchee

Time to go up against your boy Parascak!

Will be the end of the line for the Rockets.

Hopefully I'm not too hockxausted for late starts.

Should work nicely around the Frozen Four sked.