2023 Offseason

[sak22]

18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I agree with the assessment.  Kadri was great with Nichushkin.  We tried him with a multitude of LW's with Huberdeau on RW.  There was a point in the season where he was producing a lot more.  Closer to a p/gp.  I just don't think the fit was right with his line.

 

Maybe his decision rests with the coach and off-season moves, but I think he will let CM know in advance of the draft if he wants to move.  Other than coaching, there is nothing that has been done against Lindholm.  Hard to blame the team for Tkachuk and Gaudreau wanting out.  

Well he could blame them for not doing enough to keep them around, when you hear how poorly negotiations went with Gaudreau the summer before and that Tkachuk wanted the long term vs. a bridge last go around.  So it could be reasonable a player is unhappy that 2 guys he had tremendous chemistry with felt they were slighted, meanwhile new guy gets the richest contract in franchise history before playing a single game.  Wouldn't surprise me if Johnny and Matthew had some harsh words towards the organization after that and let their old teammates know.

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Well he could blame them for not doing enough to keep them around, when you hear how poorly negotiations went with Gaudreau the summer before and that Tkachuk wanted the long term vs. a bridge last go around.  So it could be reasonable a player is unhappy that 2 guys he had tremendous chemistry with felt they were slighted, meanwhile new guy gets the richest contract in franchise history before playing a single game.  Wouldn't surprise me if Johnny and Matthew had some harsh words towards the organization after that and let their old teammates know.

 

I'm not sure I believe the revised version from Tkachuk.  Did he not say that when he signed the deal, he positioned it to give him the most flexibility?  The way he talked about FLA was a guy that had every intention of going there.

 

I think BT actually did Johnny a favor by not giving him a deal the previous summer.  He wasn't worth then what he was offered in the final day here.  Maybe that comes back to haunt the GM, but it was a better offer than whatever might have been accepted that summer.  Johnny made less on his new deal.  Tkachuk got to go to the city where he could drive a gold cart to work and hound the clubs at night.  Got 8 years through Calgary's good intentions.  

[The_People1]

20 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Well he could blame them for not doing enough to keep them around, when you hear how poorly negotiations went with Gaudreau the summer before and that Tkachuk wanted the long term vs. a bridge last go around.  So it could be reasonable a player is unhappy that 2 guys he had tremendous chemistry with felt they were slighted, meanwhile new guy gets the richest contract in franchise history before playing a single game.  Wouldn't surprise me if Johnny and Matthew had some harsh words towards the organization after that and let their old teammates know.

 

I agree Gaudreau and Tkachuk's negotiations with BT went down so poorly that they weren't going to have it again a second time.  They harboured some hate despite all sides saying the right things and remaining professional.  From our perspective, we can see BT nickel and dime his own while he went spending like crazy in UFA throwing away the money.  That's got to make our star players mad.

 

I don't know what Lindholm is thinking.  We just know he's been underpaid for the last 4 years.  He's not taking any hometown discount and will negotiate this summer like he's already UFA.  Conroy has his work cut out for him.  The Flames most important player as Conroy's first negotiation and experience.

[JTech780]

Conroy is going to have make some decisions on some draft picks right away. Calgary loses the rights to Jack Beck, Lucas Feuk, Cole Huckins, Cole Jordan and Cameron Whynot if they aren’t signed by June 1st.

 

I can’t see Feuk being signed. Beck is worth a contract IMO. Huckins could go either way, like the size but is the skating good enough. Jordan just has had the worst injury luck, hopefully he can rebound but probably too much risk at this point to give him a contract. Whynot just hasn’t progressed in the Q.

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Conroy is going to have make some decisions on some draft picks right away. Calgary loses the rights to Jack Beck, Lucas Feuk, Cole Huckins, Cole Jordan and Cameron Whynot if they aren’t signed by June 1st.

 

I can’t see Feuk being signed. Beck is worth a contract IMO. Huckins could go either way, like the size but is the skating good enough. Jordan just has had the worst injury luck, hopefully he can rebound but probably too much risk at this point to give him a contract. Whynot just hasn’t progressed in the Q.

 

Well it comes down to the number of contracts that they can have.  Beck should be an easy choice.  

The two D are questionable, but not sure you should give them up without pro exposure.

Huckins another LHS winger.  Okay season, but not great considering he's in the Q.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I agree Gaudreau and Tkachuk's negotiations with BT went down so poorly that they weren't going to have it again a second time.  They harboured some hate despite all sides saying the right things and remaining professional.  From our perspective, we can see BT nickel and dime his own while he went spending like crazy in UFA throwing away the money.  That's got to make our star players mad.

 

I don't know what Lindholm is thinking.  We just know he's been underpaid for the last 4 years.  He's not taking any hometown discount and will negotiate this summer like he's already UFA.  Conroy has his work cut out for him.  The Flames most important player as Conroy's first negotiation and experience.

 

On one hand, the reason why he was underpaid is lack of production in CAR.

He's shown to be closer to a p/gp, so he should get paid as such.

I'm not sure you could call BT nickel and diming the stars.

Not recently.

Johnny got shafted by the Gio cap.

Him and Monahan got similar deals.

Neither were guaranteed to be star players.

Tkachuk got the structure of a deal that guaranteed a massive pay increase.

Mangiapane got a great deal considering it was his analytics that showed he could score more.

The 35 goals helped of course, but his scoring rate was very high.

[The_People1]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

On one hand, the reason why he was underpaid is lack of production in CAR.

He's shown to be closer to a p/gp, so he should get paid as such.

I'm not sure you could call BT nickel and diming the stars.

Not recently.

Johnny got shafted by the Gio cap.

Him and Monahan got similar deals.

Neither were guaranteed to be star players.

Tkachuk got the structure of a deal that guaranteed a massive pay increase.

Mangiapane got a great deal considering it was his analytics that showed he could score more.

The 35 goals helped of course, but his scoring rate was very high.

 

Well rumour was, BT wanted to keep Frolik so he went with a bridge deal with Tkachuk to keep his cap hit low.  Frolik was traded a few months later.

 

But also, Tkachuk was looking for $8-mil+ long term.  He hadn't proved enough yet.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well rumour was, BT wanted to keep Frolik so he went with a bridge deal with Tkachuk to keep his cap hit low.  Frolik was traded a few months later.

 

But also, Tkachuk was looking for $8-mil+ long term.  He hadn't proved enough yet.

 

Frolik rumor doesn't make a lot of sense.  When he signed, he was already producing as much as Backlund and Frolik combined.  Even if Tkachuk wanted $8M, nobody on the team was even close.  The top 3 were all in the middle of deals.  But anyway, not trying to rehash this stuff.  Just that I think Lindholm was more concerned about poor coaching and the impact on the team, including grit signings and poor usage of grit players.

[MP5029]

On 5/24/2023 at 3:51 PM, cross16 said:

 

I did not get that sense nor do I believe that is how BT operated. Conroy was open that there are certain aspects of the job that Treliving did himself(and he plans to be different) but not that he was a lone wolf. I don't get the sense Treliving was driving this ship alone. 

 

 

This. I would walk them to UFA and if they are stil productive/good fits then sign them shorter term. 

 

I just don't like the idea of locking them into term right now. Backlund is going to be tricky though because word is building that he really wants to be the captain so you may be faced with either extending him or moving him now. 

Two issues with Backlund:

 

1. age 

2. if he’s gonna be disgruntled cause he wants the C, and to be honest he’s too soft to be the C so no to that.  I’d rather Lindholm, Mangi or even Hubby over Backlund…we lost the best Captain we could have had last year to Fla…so next best are the 3 I mentioned….maybe Weegar but he’s more of an A than C…

 

I’m interested to see if he can secure Lindholm…and if so, what then would be the “some” changes to the core? Who may that be?

 

also on that note, if Lindholm is not

secured, would that the only change or would there be a mass change to the core…I’m sure most of us are of the mind set of Lindhom decides he’s not staying then that’s the time to burn it all…in doing so some players like Kadri would probably wave to get to a potential contender and thus open some valuable cap Room moving forward which would be great too! In the case Lindholm won’t commit I’d say: 

 

Marky

Hubby

backlund

wegar

toff

tanev

kadri

coleman 

would be top priorities to move out, would be hard though and probably not get much of a return on them because of poor year, NTC/NMC’s, age and in some

cases big $$$. Though I’m oft the opinion I’d try and move them all anyway, but that’s just my opinion on going Young and building the team by younger players 

[conundrumed]

I hope that you're not married to that list because virtually all of those guys are going nowhere. Why on earth would you move Weegar? He is currently a top candidate for Canada's MVP at the World's and they'll be playing for Gold tomorrow.

He is hands-down our best overall dman. Conroy definitely isn't trading more than 1 from this list, with a 0% chance that it's anyone but Backlund or Tanev, and that's maybe a 25% chance.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, MP5029 said:

Marky

Hubby

backlund

wegar

toff

tanev

kadri

coleman 

 

 

21 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I hope that you're not married to that list because virtually all of those guys are going nowhere. Why on earth would you move Weegar? He is currently a top candidate for Canada's MVP at the World's and they'll be playing for Gold tomorrow.

He is hands-down our best overall dman. Conroy definitely isn't trading more than 1 from this list, with a 0% chance that it's anyone but Backlund or Tanev, and that's maybe a 25% chance.

 

I don't know about 0% chance.  Coleman represents the style that Backlund plays, so if you are moving on from Backlund, it makes sense to consider moving Coleman.  Since he wasn't listed, I would add Hanifin, due to contract status.  That and his trade value.  We do have to be careful and not trade away all our depth before the season starts.

 

I would start with Backlund and Hanifin.  Save the Tanev trade for TDL and trade him if we are a bubble team.  In the case of being top 2, then keep him.  Losing him for nothing is not the biggest deal.

[jjgallow]

51 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I hope that you're not married to that list because virtually all of those guys are going nowhere. Why on earth would you move Weegar? He is currently a top candidate for Canada's MVP at the World's and they'll be playing for Gold tomorrow.

He is hands-down our best overall dman. Conroy definitely isn't trading more than 1 from this list, with a 0% chance that it's anyone but Backlund or Tanev, and that's maybe a 25% chance.

 

I agree.  mostly.

 

It's the wrong list.  mostly.   

 

having said that, nobody on that list is untradeable.  I don't believe the Flames currently have anybody untradeable.

But yeah.  ie,  Hanifan is a better trade candidate than Weegar, as both have high value but Hanifin is pretty useless.

 

Huberdeau/Kadri/Marky:  Unlikely.  But in a buyout situation?   then yes.

 

Backlund/Tanev:   I just don't see the sense in trading them.  Not going to command much, and they have value to the Flames.   but if some team offers up a first rounder for some bizarre reason, you do it.

 

so yeah.   You're right, unless I split hairs.  Which I am Absolutely doing 😅

 

 

One exception:  Toffili.   this guy's currently overvalued, unlikely to repeat without Sutter, and is an excellent trade candidate FOR THE RIGHT PRICE  (not a fire sale).

[conundrumed]

1 minute ago, jjgallow said:

 

I agree.  mostly.

 

It's the wrong list.  mostly.   

 

having said that, nobody on that list is untradeable.  I don't believe the Flames currently have anybody untradeable.

But yeah.  ie,  Hanifan is a better trade candidate than Weegar, as both have high value but Hanifin is pretty useless.

 

Huberdeau/Kadri/Marky:  Unlikely.  But in a buyout situation?   then yes.

 

Backlund/Tanev:   I just don't see the sense in trading them.  Not going to command much, and they have value to the Flames.   but if some team offers up a first rounder for some bizarre reason, you do it.

 

so yeah.   You're right, unless I split hairs.  Which I am Absolutely doing 😅

 

 

One exception:  Toffili.   this guy's currently overvalued, unlikely to repeat without Sutter, and is an excellent trade candidate FOR THE RIGHT PRICE  (not a fire sale).

I agree on Toffoli, just don't see Conroy doing it. Conny's already spoken to knowing Markstrom will bounce back, wants more icetime for the best players, so that wipes all of the big contracts off of the trade table.

That's why I leave it as Backs/Tanev and Lindholm remains kind of an outlier. I''ll add Z and Vladar to the trade table.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I hope that you're not married to that list because virtually all of those guys are going nowhere. Why on earth would you move Weegar? He is currently a top candidate for Canada's MVP at the World's and they'll be playing for Gold tomorrow.

He is hands-down our best overall dman. Conroy definitely isn't trading more than 1 from this list, with a 0% chance that it's anyone but Backlund or Tanev, and that's maybe a 25% chance.

 

If we want to win now then we cannot trade Weegar. 

 

If we are thinking long term, then we have to ask if Weegar will still be MVP by the time he's 35?  Is he still going to be worth $6.25-mil then?  He's paid that until 37.  The last year or two might be buyout years right when the retool is ending and the team is ready to content.  If he's playing great right now then it's a sell high opportunity.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

I don't know about 0% chance.  Coleman represents the style that Backlund plays, so if you are moving on from Backlund, it makes sense to consider moving Coleman.  Since he wasn't listed, I would add Hanifin, due to contract status.  That and his trade value.  We do have to be careful and not trade away all our depth before the season starts.

 

I would start with Backlund and Hanifin.  Save the Tanev trade for TDL and trade him if we are a bubble team.  In the case of being top 2, then keep him.  Losing him for nothing is not the biggest deal.

I read an article where they said Barclay Goodrow was overpaid at $3.64M. Coleman at $4.9 is way overpaid. He's only scored 7 more points than Goodrow. They are kind of similar in the way they play. Maybe Coleman is slightly better?

 

I don't like Coleman with Backlund. I think he drags Backlund's points down. Well, I think almost everyone does. I do think Coleman is overpaid by over a million bucks...

[Thebrewcrew]

14 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I read an article where they said Barclay Goodrow was overpaid at $3.64M. Coleman at $4.9 is way overpaid. He's only scored 7 more points than Goodrow. They are kind of similar in the way they play. Maybe Coleman is slightly better?

 

I don't like Coleman with Backlund. I think he drags Backlund's points down. Well, I think almost everyone does. I do think Coleman is overpaid by over a million bucks...

That’s the joys of spending in UFA. There was a ton of interest in Coleman, which is likely why he got 6 years. The player always wins 
 

Toffoli and Tanev are exceptions. They got the multi year deals and have been tremendous value for the club. That’s usually not the case

[travel_dude]

41 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I read an article where they said Barclay Goodrow was overpaid at $3.64M. Coleman at $4.9 is way overpaid. He's only scored 7 more points than Goodrow. They are kind of similar in the way they play. Maybe Coleman is slightly better?

 

I don't like Coleman with Backlund. I think he drags Backlund's points down. Well, I think almost everyone does. I do think Coleman is overpaid by over a million bucks...

 

I would take Goodrow over Coleman.  Is Goodrow a Bond villian?  Freddie Gaudreau is also a value player.  I think Backlund drags Backlund down.  Having another finisher would likely help him.  But, he plays 3v3 like it's 5v5, puts shots on net, dumps the puck.  He's notorious at missing the net.  When Mangiapane scored 35, Backlund was not getting a career year out of it.  I think you have to accept that Backlund is a shutdown player.  Gaudreau might be a better choice for the money.  

 

Okay, so my suggestion is to use Backlund to get a top 4 D.  Use Hanifin to get a top 6 winger.  I think you could use Dube as 3C and not be that bad off.  So, here's a crazy lineup based on some of these moves:

 

Huberdeau-Lindholm-??

Mangiapane-Kadri-Toffoli

??-Dube-Duehr

Zary/Pelletier/Ruzicka/??

 

Weegar-Ras

Kylington-Tanev

Zadorov-??

 

The first ?? relates to the Hanifin trade.  The ?? on D relates to the Backlund trade.  I have left out Coleman since I think he doesn't fit that lineup.  Perhaps we could find a taker for him, with retained salary.  It's not important that we fix the cap with his salary moved as much as finding a good player to fit the spot.  Really tough with his long term deal though.  Perhaps VAN would move Myers for the immediate cap savings.  Retain $1.9M on Coleman.  It costs us in future cap, but the increase should mitigate that.  We can sell Myers at TDL.  

 

 

[sak22]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I read an article where they said Barclay Goodrow was overpaid at $3.64M. Coleman at $4.9 is way overpaid. He's only scored 7 more points than Goodrow. They are kind of similar in the way they play. Maybe Coleman is slightly better?

 

I don't like Coleman with Backlund. I think he drags Backlund's points down. Well, I think almost everyone does. I do think Coleman is overpaid by over a million bucks...

I think its a case of past performance Coleman and Gooderow spent most of their time in Tampa together and the last year Coleman had 11 more regular season points and 5 more playoff points.  Coleman also had 2 20 goal seasons under his belt and Gooderow had never even hit 30 points.  Also helped in Gooderow's case was New York traded for his rights and signed him before he hit UFA.  I don't really have a problem with Coleman's deal now, I think he's performed as should be anticipated, it looks bad when compared to Toffoli but I didn't see him signing for that low when he did, think he might have just wanted to go to Montreal at the time.  But my concern is less Coleman, and more that Coleman's production at even strength was pretty close to the guy who will soon be making over double Coleman's salary.

[MP5029]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I hope that you're not married to that list because virtually all of those guys are going nowhere. Why on earth would you move Weegar? He is currently a top candidate for Canada's MVP at the World's and they'll be playing for Gold tomorrow.

He is hands-down our best overall dman. Conroy definitely isn't trading more than 1 from this list, with a 0% chance that it's anyone but Backlund or Tanev, and that's maybe a 25% chance.

If you noticed my point was IF Lindholm is not coming back then move as many as you can…Lindy is pretty much the 30+ leader in a few more years and our current 30+ leaders will be fading out, so If Lindholm is not Sticking around your pretty much forced into a rebuild and all the 30+ guys may as well go find a contender at that point 

[The_People1]

At what price should we NOT sign Lindholm?  What if the number he wants is $10-mil x 8-years?

[cross16]

On 5/26/2023 at 1:21 PM, The_People1 said:

 

Well rumour was, BT wanted to keep Frolik so he went with a bridge deal with Tkachuk to keep his cap hit low.  Frolik was traded a few months later.

 

But also, Tkachuk was looking for $8-mil+ long term.  He hadn't proved enough yet.

that was the PR spin yes. Behind the scenes j don’t think that is what happened. 

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

At what price should we NOT sign Lindholm?  What if the number he wants is $10-mil x 8-years?

He can asks whatever he likes, but I'd be pretty firm at a max of $8.5 personally. Larkin is $8.7 and would be a comparable.

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

He can asks whatever he likes, but I'd be pretty firm at a max of $8.5 personally. Larkin is $8.7 and would be a comparable.

that is what Serevelli was saying last

Week too. Basically did a 30 second comparable to players like him and used Larkin as it. Said 8.5 but thinks closer to 9.

I would try keep him. If they can get Backlund on a 4m deal at 2 years, or 3.5 over 3 years, I'd go for that. 
 

Huberdeau, Lindholm, Mangiapane

Dube, Kadri, Toffoli

Pelletier, Backlund, Coronato

Coleman, Zary, Duehr

Ruzicka 

 

Weegar, Andersson

Kylington, XXX

Zadorov, Stetcher

 

Trade both Hanifin and Tanev. Sign a defensive D.

 

I'd be willing to trade Dube or Mangiapane. 

 

 

 

[Thebrewcrew]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

At what price should we NOT sign Lindholm?  What if the number he wants is $10-mil x 8-years?

I would do 9x8 at the most. To get that kind of money in UFA it would be 10.2x7, which isn’t happening.

[conundrumed]

2 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I would do 9x8 at the most. To get that kind of money in UFA it would be 10.2x7, which isn’t happening.

And even that's getting a bit rich for 1 40g/ppg season that was with Gaudreau and Tkachuk. Never before, not yet after.

Larkin has shown some consistency at ppg and is likely worth more, as well as being a captain.

I just don't think that he's worth the full 9. Could be a 50-60pt guy again. That would suck.