Flames 22/23 Lineup

[The_People1]

13 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Depends on how you want to look at it. At this time last year the Flames had played 36 games.  

 

5 on5 they were scoring at 2.48/60 clip on 2.71 Expected goals for.. This year's it's 2.68 on expected goals of 2.8. 

Last year they were giving up 2.1 and 2.38 Expected goals against. This year's it's 2.46 on 2.39 expected goals against. 

 

All Strengths:

Last year scoring 3.14 on 3.04 expected goals for. Giving up 2.55 on 2.7 Expected goals against. 

This year's its 3 on 3.21 Expected goals for. Giving up 2.91 on 2.82 expected goals against. 

 

Jtech isn't really off, goaltending does jump out as a key difference. The other one being is that last year's group took off in February (10-1) and it remains to be seen if this group can take that next step that got them to those levels. 

 

Oh agreed Goaltending has been bad.  Since the DAL series, Markstrom lost his swagger and cannot get it back.  I don't know what happened.  He's unreliable now.

 

Just saying though, scoring has also been down.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Lucic is a problem but let's not steer this away from the obvious and that's big money plays over small money.  We can trim this roster down so its price/performance ratio is optimized and free up so much money this summer to do bigger things.  In a cap era, we can't waste cap space on under performers just because we want to be nice and stuff. 

 

As you've mentioned, Markstrom is marginally better than Vladar and Wolf looks like the real deal.  Save $-millions there by moving Markstrom this summer.  Won't get much because not many teams are looking and have cap space.  Not many teams want a 32-year-old coming off a bad season with 4-years remaining and $6-mil-per.  Just cut losses and move on.  We signed him via UFA anyways.

 

Huberdeau at $10.5-mil producing at $5-mil level is concerning if not franchise killing.  Can he turn it around?  Let's see.  Of course I hope so.  Of course he's beginning to.  But still far off $10.5-mil-per.  it's not too much to ask a $10.5-mil player to be a top 5 NHL play driver or play maker or finisher, etc.  He's so average all around.  What can we get if we trade him now?  I feel Montreal would be willing do give us something decent.  I assume Montreal will also target PLD this summer.  

 

And Weegar at $6.25-mil, is having the most frustrating season of his life and you can tell by his body language on the ice.  He should play below Zadorov on the depth chart.  Some were saying we will be pleasantly surprised because he's better than Jakob Chychrun and he will be our new #1 LD.  Next season he will be the highest paid Dman on the team.  Big yikes.

 

Starting with the defense.  Is Weegar the problem or is it the pairs that are messed up.

You have Zaddy looking good, but playing with Stone.

Ras-Hanifin are getting zonked by playing too many minutes.

I would argue that Weegar is tasked with too much shutdown, so he is out of his realm.

Hanifin-Tanev gets back a decent pair.

Weegar-Ras gives you two guys that play a similar game.

Zaddy stays with Stone until Kyl is back.

 

Can really be discussing trading a starter without knowing how he finishes the year.

Or what Wolf is like at the NHL level.

The latter is a huge risk.

 

How long did it take Tkachuk to fit in under Sutter?

He was a consistent player with Backlund, but never really broke out.

He was left frustrated with his teammates when he create crap with other teams.

He became the 100 point guy when he was able to get away with being lazy on the backcheck.

His netfront and shot got him a free pass.

Gaudreau was a drop pass specialist and routinely created odd man rushes the other way.

Suffice to say that they got with the program for the most part and got away with the rest.

A new player with another new player isn't going to have any chemistry and no free pass.

They would be told to guard against the D zone first and score next.

Hubey is gonna take most of the season before he is that same player he was.

The PP looks like last year at times.

Seems like the plan is not logical.

Only works against some teams and that's when the circumstances allow they to move the puck around better.

No just the exact same shot every sequence.

[travel_dude]

A good description from a FN blogger about this year in Calgary:

 

Here's how I interpret what Sutter is doing in Calgary this year - He's defaulting to a "lower skill" system where the club banks on a very specific, fundamental way of playing... /1

 

Smash mouth, heavy, limited risk, high shot volume. Low risk is going to be emphasized because he doesn't think they can win by 2 or come back from 2 down. /2

 

CGY does a pretty good job at limiting chances against in aggregate (though they struggled a bit in the early going). Markstrom has been poor and it has put a hole in the entire endeavour so far. This doesn't work with above average netminding./3

 

Sutter has said, implicitly and explicitly, that the club has no dominant players this year, and he's employed his roster and tactics in tune. But he's also talking about the entire org here, not just the parent team. /4

 

If there was a Phaneuf or Tkachuk in the system, he'd happily audition them at the top of the rotation. But none of the kids are big body, obvious slot-in stars, so he has little time for them. /5

 

I think Sutter's at "only dominant players matter" in terms of additions. He doesn't want to babysit rookies or gamble on prospects. So he'll slot the reputational vets in and keep telling management he needs another Stallion. /end

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Lucic is a problem but let's not steer this away from the obvious and that's big money plays over small money.  We can trim this roster down so its price/performance ratio is optimized and free up so much money this summer to do bigger things.  In a cap era, we can't waste cap space on under performers just because we want to be nice and stuff. 

 

As you've mentioned, Markstrom is marginally better than Vladar and Wolf looks like the real deal.  Save $-millions there by moving Markstrom this summer.  Won't get much because not many teams are looking and have cap space.  Not many teams want a 32-year-old coming off a bad season with 4-years remaining and $6-mil-per.  Just cut losses and move on.  We signed him via UFA anyways.

 

Huberdeau at $10.5-mil producing at $5-mil level is concerning if not franchise killing.  Can he turn it around?  Let's see.  Of course I hope so.  Of course he's beginning to.  But still far off $10.5-mil-per.  it's not too much to ask a $10.5-mil player to be a top 5 NHL play driver or play maker or finisher, etc.  He's so average all around.  What can we get if we trade him now?  I feel Montreal would be willing do give us something decent.  I assume Montreal will also target PLD this summer.  

 

And Weegar at $6.25-mil, is having the most frustrating season of his life and you can tell by his body language on the ice.  He should play below Zadorov on the depth chart.  Some were saying we will be pleasantly surprised because he's better than Jakob Chychrun and he will be our new #1 LD.  Next season he will be the highest paid Dman on the team.  Big yikes.

 

im tired of the whole, well it happens, look at most teams, they're right up against the cap. But that's giving the GM a break, an out. Well most teams do it. No! Be accountable and be cleaner when it comes to cap management. How many players are way over - priced?

 

Lucic, Coleman, Huberdeau (next season), Markstrom (if this is what you get from now on), and Mangiapane. 
 

a big problem coming up is Lindholm. We are possibly moving into Tkachuk/Gaudreau territory. Next year is his last year on the deal. What is he going to want and will he be willing to stay? The Flames better know by the off-season and be willing to get what they can if he doesn't.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

im tired of the whole, well it happens, look at most teams, they're right up against the cap. But that's giving the GM a break, an out. Well most teams do it. No! Be accountable and be cleaner when it comes to cap management. How many players are way over - priced?

 

Lucic, Coleman, Huberdeau (next season), Markstrom (if this is what you get from now on), and Mangiapane. 
 

a big problem coming up is Lindholm. We are possibly moving into Tkachuk/Gaudreau territory. Next year is his last year on the deal. What is he going to want and will he be willing to stay? The Flames better know by the off-season and be willing to get what they can if he doesn't.

 

Some previous poor signings really gum up the cap.

Lucic was a poor reaction to a bad signing.

We would have been better off buying out Neal, but that was an owner call.

One year then what 8 years of penalties?

The owners like it because the actual cost to retain the player was less.

 

The other signings are par value for the players and a slight uptick due to playing in CGY.

We can't attract everyone without overpaying somewhat.

 

Cap management is actually one of BT's good traits.

Not the signing costs but the overall management to expiring contracts and total cap.

Huberdeau was a bit desperate due to the departure of two top players.

Can't make a major trade and not lock up the player.

Much like the Stone trade to Vegas, you make the trade and sign right away.

 

What BT needs to look at is what value he is getting from players vs their value to other teams.

Mangiapane would be great for MTL or a team that is fast.

Backlund would be great for a team lacking a 2 way C.

We have some potential cap issues coming, but not trade the farm types.

The thing holding him back is the coach's reluctance to play more than just today.

Trade Hanifin with nobody really stepping up yet.

I thought Hanifin would be a victim with Weegar coming, but Kylington messed that up.

It would have given us a trade asset that might solve the top 6 depth.

Or allow us to get a younger developing player that has a high ceiling.

 

We will see (once Kyl comes back) what the plan is.

Either a trade asset or a really good replacement for Hanifin.

[travel_dude]

No big surprises at skate today.

Same lineup except for Vladar being the likely starter.

[travel_dude]

Not sure what the point of the callup was.

3 games available and no Pelletier.

[travel_dude]

 

[sak22]

10 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

im tired of the whole, well it happens, look at most teams, they're right up against the cap. But that's giving the GM a break, an out. Well most teams do it. No! Be accountable and be cleaner when it comes to cap management. How many players are way over - priced?

 

Lucic, Coleman, Huberdeau (next season), Markstrom (if this is what you get from now on), and Mangiapane. 
 

a big problem coming up is Lindholm. We are possibly moving into Tkachuk/Gaudreau territory. Next year is his last year on the deal. What is he going to want and will he be willing to stay? The Flames better know by the off-season and be willing to get what they can if he doesn't.

Then be prepared to never be satisfied, because I know zero GM's without a bad contract or several.  Players like Iggy and Gio who took less to stay in their late stages are anomalies in this market.  If you think guys like Coleman are overpaid now, I say wait 3 years.

 

Gotta take the bad, but also need to acknowledge the good.  If Lindholm, Andersson or Hanifin were bridged they'd be paying a lot more now for long term.  Lindholm was 27th in points last  year and how many of the 26 in front of him made less than him?  Only 1, Kadri.  Plenty of defensemen make almost double what our top pairing make and there are some in that group that I'd take both Andersson and Hanifin over (well mainly Nurse).  Outside of high end ELC's like Crosby, Ovi, Malkin, Stamkos, Kane, McDavid, Doughty, or Matthews, I can't think of too many teams that have had an Art Ross trophy at 1.5 million, a Vezina at 3.5, a Norris at 6.75, and a 99 and 115 point season at 6.75 all of that in the past 20 seasons.  I think we should be one of the last franchises to complain about contracts we just signed our first with an AAV over 7, even Vegas did that before the Flames did.

[JTech780]

Does feel like this is the situation. Sutter also has the backing of ownership. I think this also why we haven’t seen a Treliving extension, I doubt he wants to stay somewhere where he isn’t on the same page as the coach and ownership has basically tied his hands.

[Heartbreaker]

9 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Does feel like this is the situation. Sutter also has the backing of ownership. I think this also why we haven’t seen a Treliving extension, I doubt he wants to stay somewhere where he isn’t on the same page as the coach and ownership has basically tied his hands.

 

We are in big trouble, methinks.

 

Love.

[travel_dude]

20 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Does feel like this is the situation. Sutter also has the backing of ownership. I think this also why we haven’t seen a Treliving extension, I doubt he wants to stay somewhere where he isn’t on the same page as the coach and ownership has basically tied his hands.

 

10 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

We are in big trouble, methinks.

 

Love.

 

If I was to guess, I would say the situation with Gaudreau and Tkachuk, then paying Huberdeau the same money is troubling to the owners.  They want to see star value for star pay.  Think they feel BT bungled the Tkachuk and Gaudreau re-signings.  That's just a guess.  From what I understood, Edwards was furious with Gaudreau.  But to be fair, there was opportunity to lock them both up 2021 and the end of the ELC.  Cap or the owners may have been at fault then.  Or BT trying to add and get cheaper deals done.

 

If Sutter is the last man standing we are in deep kaka.  He's a line of sight coach.  Only interested in prospects or young NHL players is during camp and they must blow the doors off.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

im tired of the whole, well it happens, look at most teams, they're right up against the cap. But that's giving the GM a break, an out. Well most teams do it. No! Be accountable and be cleaner when it comes to cap management. How many players are way over - priced?

 

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

Then be prepared to never be satisfied, because I know zero GM's without a bad contract or several.  

 

Only 1 GM wins the Cup every year.  And the winner almost always has zero bad contracts.  One at the most.

 

Do we want to be that 1 GM?  If so, then we better aim for zero bad contracts or as close to it as possible.  Don't settle for it being okay with any bad contracts at all.  Don't be satisfied so easily.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

Does feel like this is the situation. Sutter also has the backing of ownership. I think this also why we haven’t seen a Treliving extension, I doubt he wants to stay somewhere where he isn’t on the same page as the coach and ownership has basically tied his hands.

 

I'm sure BT and Sutter discuss the type of players Sutter wants.  I'm sure RHS C comes up... Almost certainly based on Sutter's history and usage of RHS C.  This season, BT has failed to deliver.

 

Phillips is way too small.  Pelletier... Why bother when we've got Dube, Mangiapane, and even Huberdeau eating all the minutes on LW.

[The_People1]

This would never happen but should we try,

 

Huberdeau - Kadri - Weegar

 

Hanifin - Anderson

Zadorov - Tanev

Mackey - Stone

[sak22]

14 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

Only 1 GM wins the Cup every year.  And the winner almost always has zero bad contracts.  One at the most.

 

Do we want to be that 1 GM?  If so, then we better aim for zero bad contracts or as close to it as possible.  Don't settle for it being okay with any bad contracts at all.  Don't be satisfied so easily.

Who says I'm satisfied, can't there ever be middle ground?  Are we the best team?  No.  Are we the worst team?  Also no.  The question is which side are we closer to we are 21 points out from first and 23 out from last, factor in the top team right now is on pace to be the best regular season ever and the last place is about an average cellar dweller.  Do we have more than one bad contract, sure, but we also have all defensemen currently making less than 5 million and the top 2 scorers making less than 5 million.  How many teams can say that?

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I'm sure BT and Sutter discuss the type of players Sutter wants.  I'm sure RHS C comes up... Almost certainly based on Sutter's history and usage of RHS C.  This season, BT has failed to deliver.

 

Phillips is way too small.  Pelletier... Why bother when we've got Dube, Mangiapane, and even Huberdeau eating all the minutes on LW.

 

So he replaced two 40 goal 100 point guys with a 100 point guy and a p/gp C.

Sutter can't get that out of them.  How is that a BT fail?

I don't recall any 80 point RHS C's available.

 

If the coach is unable to use the players you bring in or up, then he has a problem.

Sure, some of it may be on the player, but Kadri and Hubey are both Sutter players.

[travel_dude]

I'm not sure I understand the logic of the call ups.

Zohorna back up, was papered down to save cap $$.

That makes sense.

Him and Duehr both fit on the 4th line.  Fine

What was the point of calling up Pelletier?

If a top 9 player gets injured they use the 4th line player up the lineup.

The 4th line hole left would be replaced by Duehr or Zohorna, depending on who wasn't already playing.

That's because role players only get used on the 4th line.

No room for better skill.

 

Would it not make better sense to call up a top 9 AHL player and play him in the top 9?

Use the top 9 player as better depth to the 4th line?

Can always sub mid game if it doesn't work.

 

Don't know why I think crazy thoughts.

Other teams seem to have these crazy thoughts.

That's why you tend to see former AHL players proving they are NHL players.

Impossible to do out of the lineup.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, sak22 said:

Who says I'm satisfied, can't there ever be middle ground?  Are we the best team?  No.  Are we the worst team?  Also no.  The question is which side are we closer to we are 21 points out from first and 23 out from last, factor in the top team right now is on pace to be the best regular season ever and the last place is about an average cellar dweller.  Do we have more than one bad contract, sure, but we also have all defensemen currently making less than 5 million and the top 2 scorers making less than 5 million.  How many teams can say that?

 

As you say, we are average.  I hope you agree that that's not good enough.  I know I sound overly critical but that's because we need to be exceptional to have a chance to win the Cup.

 

I agree a great first step is to move Markstrom this summer. I wouldn't even try to get anything of value back.  Just free the $6-mil.  He's turning 33 so there's a chance that he's regressing due to age and he's never going back to his prime again.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

So he replaced two 40 goal 100 point guys with a 100 point guy and a p/gp C.

Sutter can't get that out of them.  How is that a BT fail?

I don't recall any 80 point RHS C's available.

 

If the coach is unable to use the players you bring in or up, then he has a problem.

Sure, some of it may be on the player, but Kadri and Hubey are both Sutter players.

 

On paper, it should've worked.  And maybe it will but it will take a year or three for chemistry to build.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

On paper, it should've worked.  And maybe it will but it will take a year or three for chemistry to build.

 

Maybe it doesn't ever work, which is a risk with some coaches.

Man on man vs zone.

But their success depends on the other players we have and the ones they play with.

 

I hate to blames coaches, but it seems that we have payers maybe not suited for Sutter.

The drop pass was used widely by the Flames last year.

It worked and it didn't work.

The guys have to expect it or react quickly.

We don't execute it well at all now, and Sutter probably bag skates players that try it.

Ok, so he would do that for a guy younger than 30.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Maybe it doesn't ever work, which is a risk with some coaches.

Man on man vs zone.

But their success depends on the other players we have and the ones they play with.

 

I hate to blames coaches, but it seems that we have payers maybe not suited for Sutter.

The drop pass was used widely by the Flames last year.

It worked and it didn't work.

The guys have to expect it or react quickly.

We don't execute it well at all now, and Sutter probably bag skates players that try it.

Ok, so he would do that for a guy younger than 30.

 

The drop pass is exactly why retools take a year or three to complete... This why retooling young is always preferred over retooling older.  You need the time and the years.

[cross16]

On 1/12/2023 at 4:53 AM, The_People1 said:

 

Oh agreed Goaltending has been bad.  Since the DAL series, Markstrom lost his swagger and cannot get it back.  I don't know what happened.  He's unreliable now.

 

Just saying though, scoring has also been down.

 

But that's the point, it isn't not if we look at the same spot of the season last year. 

 

Like I said at this time last year the Flames were 14th in scoring rates at 5 on 5. 15th in all situation with 2.99 Goals for/60. 

This year they are 10th at 5 on 5 and 22nd in all situations with 3.02.  They are actually scoring at a higher rate this year than they were last year, again at this point in the season. 

 

Only point being is the narrative between last year to this year has changed mostly due to expectations. Agian we forget that it wasn't until February that last year's team really took off, especially offensively, but it's not like they were a high end goal scoring team all year. 

[cross16]

21 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Does feel like this is the situation. Sutter also has the backing of ownership. I think this also why we haven’t seen a Treliving extension, I doubt he wants to stay somewhere where he isn’t on the same page as the coach and ownership has basically tied his hands.

 

This is where I am falling as well. Started with Valimaki, Sutter didn't play him and Treliving did an interview expressed he needs to play, and it's built every since. I don't think the way Sutter is coaching the team this year is how Treliving built it, they are way more passive and this team was built to skate and pressure, and obviously it seems fairly obvious they are not on the same page with young players. it has to be frustrating for Treliving to see a first round pick go to the AHL, do everything they could want, see your NHL team in need of more speed, goal scoring, and then not have your coach play that player. 

 

I wouldn't blame Treliving at all if he walks over this at the end of the season. 

[tmac70]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

This is where I am falling as well. Started with Valimaki, Sutter didn't play him and Treliving did an interview expressed he needs to play, and it's built every since. I don't think the way Sutter is coaching the team this year is how Treliving built it, they are way more passive and this team was built to skate and pressure, and obviously it seems fairly obvious they are not on the same page with young players. it has to be frustrating for Treliving to see a first round pick go to the AHL, do everything they could want, see your NHL team in need of more speed, goal scoring, and then not have your coach play that player. 

 

I wouldn't blame Treliving at all if he walks over this at the end of the season. 

I will get in on the Sutter should not be made GM, we seen that horror movie before. If Edwards appoints Sutter to GM hes a Fing moron. Sutter is a good coach, he is a lousy GM. So Tre stated when Sutter was hired " This team needed Darryl " . Last season was good with fairly close to similar results this year with  poor tending. WIth all the reconstrcution of the roster thats a positive, which actually surprised me that we were close to last year stats

 

Phillips is having a great season as are a few others. So who do you remove out of the roster to insert Phillips? Now the concus would be Lucic, but has he been that bad since coming back? Duher got inserted has had the two games, in a role that we need filled based on injury, has he been noticiable YES, has he been affective YES, despie the goal he has had a positive impact. Phillips got 2 games was he noticable NO, did he make a differance NO, did he have a huger impact than Lucic, NO.  Do we have a spot in the top 6 that needs filled right now based on poor play and injury NO. I am all for the removal of Lucic I am but currently he hasn't been that awful. IMHO if your removing anyone off the roster based on insufficent performance and liabilty its Stone. So lets go here, Markstrom is struggling and Wolf is lighting it up, why not place Markstrom in the popcorn section and bring in Wolf. Thats currently a position that is lacking right now. 

 

With Valimaki did he really impress. If we are a rebuilding team than sure plaster your roster with projects and let them flounder. If this is the postiioning of Tre than for sure I would let him walk. He did well with Hubie and Weegar and Kadri, coming back after the disaster this summer. Hell rumors were that both JG and MT were willing to stay but Tre insulted them with low offers.