Flames 22/23 Lineup

[MP5029]

6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Yes, we beat the teams that are below us in the standings.

Exactly what we need to do to maintain a playoff spot.

I'm good with the win today, as bad as the defensive play was in the final 22 minutes or so.

 

To the point, Duehr was given a chance to play.

He did well with his minutes.

Is there some reason to believe that a player with higher AHL production wouldn't be able to handle the NHL?

 

I will point out that the Huberdeau line played the least of the top 3 lines.

And that was with him getting chances on 5 PP's.

Kadri had slighly more than him, but not by a lot.

So, while the wins were there against mostly non-playoff teams + Dallas, there's a lot to improve.

Exactly…hence moving Lucic, add a D to replace Kylington and play Valadar more…move Kadri to RW and add a top 9 Ctr who can win FO’s…probably a 3rd liner Ctr  though a 2nd line Ctr would be ideal to keep Backlund on the 3rd, I can’t see see any 2nd line Ctrs being available and affordable 

[pikey7883]

2 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Exactly…hence moving Lucic, add a D to replace Kylington and play Valadar more…move Kadri to RW and add a top 9 Ctr who can win FO’s…probably a 3rd liner Ctr  though a 2nd line Ctr would be ideal to keep Backlund on the 3rd, I can’t see see any 2nd line Ctrs being available and affordable 

Your propensity to move Kadri is very short sighted I think. He has never been a winger ever and is a career 49% FO guy. Not something to write home about, but not a problem that’s worth fixing with extreme tact. He needs a better puck pursuit and puck possession winger on his right side, someone like Ruzie could be close.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, pikey7883 said:

Your propensity to move Kadri is very short sighted I think. He has never been a winger ever and is a career 49% FO guy. Not something to write home about, but not a problem that’s worth fixing with extreme tact. He needs a better puck pursuit and puck possession winger on his right side, someone like Ruzie could be close.

 

Monahan was always a >50% faceoff guy and that benefitted the top line for scoring.

It's not really something we can fix easily. nor is it right to trade for a top C.

There are a couple of ways to mitigate it, one is sdd s C that can take draws.

The other is having a guy that gets back the puck or can make the D zone better.

We are always going to lose draws, but half our problems are ineffective D-zone after a loss.

 

The D have a job but the wingers aren't just chess piece.

They have to cover players.

[Thebrewcrew]

I think the top 9 is pretty set for the time being.

 

I didn't like Lucic on the Kadri line iniatially, but it's worked. You're at least getting something out of the winger at 5.2m. Not sure it's a long term fit, but right now it is working.

 

I really like Ruzicka, but I think you could slide him out for a game or two, if the Flames wanted to get a look at Pelletier. 5 game pt streak so Darryl likely isn't looking to make changes.

[travel_dude]

38 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think the top 9 is pretty set for the time being.

 

I didn't like Lucic on the Kadri line iniatially, but it's worked. You're at least getting something out of the winger at 5.2m. Not sure it's a long term fit, but right now it is working.

 

I really like Ruzicka, but I think you could slide him out for a game or two, if the Flames wanted to get a look at Pelletier. 5 game pt streak so Darryl likely isn't looking to make changes.

 

You have to be smart about it.

Not wait till it falls apart, but see the trending.

I don't think Lucic played that bad against DAL, but he played a lot less minutes.

There must have been something seen like missed coverage.

However, at the same time Lucic played the final minute of play.

It may just have been managing minutes for the trip.

 

Game to game, there are several candidates to sit the next game.

Sutter isn't going to give that spot to a rookie unless it's a big message to the player.

I couldn't point to one player in the last 4 games that hasn't earned the spot back in the next game.

Well, at least staying in the lineup.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think the top 9 is pretty set for the time being.

 

I didn't like Lucic on the Kadri line iniatially, but it's worked. You're at least getting something out of the winger at 5.2m. Not sure it's a long term fit, but right now it is working.

 

I really like Ruzicka, but I think you could slide him out for a game or two, if the Flames wanted to get a look at Pelletier. 5 game pt streak so Darryl likely isn't looking to make changes.

He's the only one power-playing correctly. Everyone is counting steamboats when they get the puck, Ruzicka is the ONLY one moving it fast. I'm not sitting him for that alone. The PP is terrible because they can't or refuse to move the puck around quickly. Rosie's the only guy moving it quickly.

[travel_dude]

14 hours ago, conundrumed said:

He's the only one power-playing correctly. Everyone is counting steamboats when they get the puck, Ruzicka is the ONLY one moving it fast. I'm not sitting him for that alone. The PP is terrible because they can't or refuse to move the puck around quickly. Rosie's the only guy moving it quickly.

 

Not just the PP, but Rosie makes some subtle plays that seem to result in goals.

He's smart out there on the PP, my only complaint is he doesn't shoot enough.

If him and Dube were to swap spots on the PP, both would have better shots at the net.

For some reason Dube isn't shooting on RW.

What do we have, 5 LHS's on the 2nd unit?  And 3 RHS on the top unit?

 

[pikey7883]

I have a question for all of you. With Looch playing up with Hubie, it has forced Hubie to the right side more often than not. Sutter moved Tkachuk from Left Wing to Right wing with great success, and now Chucky is considered a RW by most accounts. I wonder if his thinking is that he struck gold with Chuck, he is hoping for a similar result with Hubie?

If he turns him into a strong offhand RW, I believe it compliments our roster better in the longterm and works much better (with his favourite) right hand shot centers. 
Am I trying to hard to find something? Or is there merit to what I’m thinking?

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, pikey7883 said:

I have a question for all of you. With Looch playing up with Hubie, it has forced Hubie to the right side more often than not. Sutter moved Tkachuk from Left Wing to Right wing with great success, and now Chucky is considered a RW by most accounts. I wonder if his thinking is that he struck gold with Chuck, he is hoping for a similar result with Hubie?

If he turns him into a strong offhand RW, I believe it compliments our roster better in the longterm and works much better (with his favourite) right hand shot centers. 
Am I trying to hard to find something? Or is there merit to what I’m thinking?

 

I would say a bit of both.

If he chose Lucic and wanted to get the most out of him, he has to play LW.

Moving JH to RW is probably necessary unless we have a true RW to play with him.

Or we have a better option tan Lucic to play RW.

I can think of a few.

 

I will say that Sutter seems to focus on one line's success at a time.

Get Backlund stabilized; check.

Get Hubey's line scoring more than just on the PP; check (sometimes).

Let the top line work itself out, leave alone for now, just complain about them. 

See if the 4th line with two kids and Lewis works; check.

[cross16]

I think we get way too caught up in LW -RW. In today's game it's more about timing/situations then it is sticking to certain sides. 

 

I don't think there is much motivation beyond that to be honest. I thikn the motivation to play Lucic in that spot has to do with a big body, net presence, and someone who will be in the right spot and free up Huberdeau/Kadri to do their thing. 

[travel_dude]

 

Everybody be wary wary qwiet.

Pelts on the ice.

 

There's a good chance that he will get in against COL, but at the expense of a young player most likely.

This isn't a shot against Lewis, but why not at least try:

Pelletier-Ruzicka-Duehr

 

Ruzicka was 2nd best in faceoffs against NAS.

He was one of the least played players.

I think Sutter may have blamed him a bit for the goal against.

Although, I believe Sutter blames the D for laying down in the crease.

 

[travel_dude]

Darryl Sutter on forward call-up Jakob Pelletier, still waiting on his NHL debut: “He’s excited to be here. At the end of the day, I want to get him in. But you know what? We’re not 10 up and we’re not 10 out. That’s the way it works.”

[cross16]

That's a pretty frustrating quote. 

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

That's a pretty frustrating quote. 

 

The inevitable Twitter storm is a comin'.

 

There is a longer quote that Valji [posted, and it's not much better...

 

 

[travel_dude]

So, either wait until we have a huge lead this season (not likely) or wait till we are out.

But, make sure you gain 10-20 pounds of muscle.

So, I'm really not understanding what Sutter wants.

You have a bad camp and need to wait till you gain weight now that you are performing?

Wait till Sutter tells you what he thinks you are and how you may fit?

Grow older because you are still young?

 

I get the idea that we are coming off a decent road trip.

And we are right on the line of playoffs or not.

But have we been so good that we don't even look at talent?

[CheersMan]

Maybe we should just call up the entire Wrangler team and sit the entire big team for 10 games, get a real good look at the kids, you know, cause they deserve it. Then put an end to the nonsense that kid X, Y, Z should bump pro A, B, C while we are fighting tooth and nail for every point it will take to make the playoffs. You want to see a kid play, go watch the Wranglers or wait for the conditions DS mentions.

[cross16]

No one is asking for the entire team to be sat and kids called up. I don't understand why this always needs to be an either or scenario. 

 

You can fight for the playoffs and still play young players both can and should be true. Colorado's 3rd line center last year was a 21 years old with less than 10 NHL games under his belt. 

Lightning had no problem relying on the likes of Cereli, Sergachev, Mathieu Joseph or Erik Cernak who were all less than 22. 

Rangers went to ECF last year playing a 20 year old dman and a 22 year old dman with less than 1 season under his belt. 

 

This concept that you either need to be out of it or way ahead of it to play kids is ridiculous in today's game and is not the way successful clubs work in the NHL today. Now the suggestions should be play kids for the sake of kids but when you are seeing a lineup that is inconsistent, lacks energy/good starts and see players that could help there seems to be a middle ground there. 

 

And no offence when Sutter ran the Flames they had the worst development program in the entire league so I think it's more than fair to question him on this. 

 

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

This concept that you either need to be out of it or way ahead of it to play kids is ridiculous in today's game and is not the way successful clubs work in the NHL today. Now the suggestions should be play kids for the sake of kids but when you are seeing a lineup that is inconsistent, lacks energy/good starts and see players that could help there seems to be a middle ground there. 

 

And no offence when Sutter ran the Flames they had the worst development program in the entire league so I think it's more than fair to question him on this. 

 

 

To be honest, all of this talk from Sutter sounds like BS justification of why he won't play a young player.  

If we were 10 up, he would want to maintain that.

If 10 down, he would want to scrape to get there.

 

Just cut the BS already Sutter.

 

I think anyone looking at his comments see two things; size/weight and NHL experience.

He's too small for your magical NHL lines and can't start him in a game because he had a bad camp.

 

I'm not saying that we have awesome prospects, but the three top ones are not playing in the NHL.

One got a "chance", but the other won't.  

The likes of Pettersen will never see a NHL game.

Develop and throw away.

 

MTL seems to have zero problem with Caulfield.

So little a problem they are worried about paying him more than Suzuki.

 

This may just be all Sutter gamesmanship.  

He hates getting asked about young or small players.

If he gets a chance, he will be tossed to the wolves to prove a point.

What does success look like?  I will tell you when I make up something.

 

[CheersMan]

35 minutes ago, cross16 said:

No one is asking for the entire team to be sat and kids called up. I don't understand why this always needs to be an either or scenario. 

 

You can fight for the playoffs and still play young players both can and should be true. Colorado's 3rd line center last year was a 21 years old with less than 10 NHL games under his belt. 

Lightning had no problem relying on the likes of Cereli, Sergachev, Mathieu Joseph or Erik Cernak who were all less than 22. 

Rangers went to ECF last year playing a 20 year old dman and a 22 year old dman with less than 1 season under his belt. 

 

This concept that you either need to be out of it or way ahead of it to play kids is ridiculous in today's game and is not the way successful clubs work in the NHL today. Now the suggestions should be play kids for the sake of kids but when you are seeing a lineup that is inconsistent, lacks energy/good starts and see players that could help there seems to be a middle ground there. 

 

And no offence when Sutter ran the Flames they had the worst development program in the entire league so I think it's more than fair to question him on this. 

 

 

Half-way through the season and DS has taken looks at Ruzica, Zohorna, Duehr, Gilbert, Desimone and Mackey. Seems like he is giving opportunities to plenty. Others on here want to see Wolf, Meolche, Pelletier, Zary and Philips. That makes 11 players from the farm which seems ridiculous in half a season. I’ve got nothing against kids nor does DS, if they are talented and better than our pros then take the job. One rookie earned a job in training camp and that was Ruzica, the others will have to earn then wait their turn. DS knows who’s best option in each position.

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

Half-way through the season and DS has taken looks at Ruzica, Zohorna, Duehr, Gilbert, Desimone and Mackey. Seems like he is giving opportunities to plenty. Others on here want to see Wolf, Meolche, Pelletier, Zary and Philips. That makes 11 players from the farm which seems ridiculous in half a season. I’ve got nothing against kids nor does DS, if they are talented and better than our pros then take the job. One rookie earned a job in training camp and that was Ruzica, the others will have to earn then wait their turn. DS knows who’s best option in each position.

 

How are they going to earn it?

You mentioned 6 guys that played, but every one of them but Desimone had NHL experience and all are big.

And none of them are kids.

 

IIRC he even said that Zary outplayed some vets in camp but waiver status determined his fate.

 

As for rookies, Ruzicka isn't even classified as one by liberal NHL standards.

[sak22]

28 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

This may just be all Sutter gamesmanship.  

He hates getting asked about young or small players.

If he gets a chance, he will be tossed to the wolves to prove a point.

What does success look like?  I will tell you when I make up something.

 

Not may, it is.  He's done this everywhere, it wasn't that long ago he was riding Toffoli and Pearson deep in playoff runs while they had limited experience, and not the 2-3 years needed at the AHL level.  It wasn't always praise to the media about them as kids either.  Sutter hasn't changed really, just people hang on to every word he says, there really isn't a coach who gives everything to the media, for example my wife is more casual follower she always thought Bob Hartley was a bubbly happy guy, she was shocked when I told her stories of how he is a major dickhead behind closed doors who the players despised..  Its all just words used for clicks, will have no bearing on what happens on the ice.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Not may, it is.  He's done this everywhere, it wasn't that long ago he was riding Toffoli and Pearson deep in playoff runs while they had limited experience, and not the 2-3 years needed at the AHL level.  It wasn't always praise to the media about them as kids either.  Sutter hasn't changed really, just people hang on to every word he says, there really isn't a coach who gives everything to the media, for example my wife is more casual follower she always thought Bob Hartley was a bubbly happy guy, she was shocked when I told her stories of how he is a major dickhead behind closed doors who the players despised..  Its all just words used for clicks, will have no bearing on what happens on the ice.

 

Some of it proves to be true, some doesn't.

This latest is annoying, since it implies there is nothing the kid can do.

Just work your arse off, and by the way, we won't play you.

But if you don't work your arse off we never will.

 

 

Anyway, I'm not going to waste time talking about what Sutter says.

I am annoyed with everything he says other than post games.

Some nuggets there and sometimes it's BS.

Did the fact that the D fell down in the crease cause the 2nd line to play like crap all night?

If he's holding them accountable (and I have no reason to think he isn't), why bother with the nonsense. 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

The inevitable Twitter storm is a comin'.

 

There is a longer quote that Valji [posted, and it's not much better...

 

 

 

Sutter is not wrong though.  Pelletier has looked very vanilla.  But of course, hope he gets a game in soon.  He's in that Mangiapane and Dube box.  And we don't need so many of the same type.

 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

 

Half-way through the season and DS has taken looks at Ruzica, Zohorna, Duehr, Gilbert, Desimone and Mackey. Seems like he is giving opportunities to plenty. Others on here want to see Wolf, Meolche, Pelletier, Zary and Philips. That makes 11 players from the farm which seems ridiculous in half a season. I’ve got nothing against kids nor does DS, if they are talented and better than our pros then take the job. One rookie earned a job in training camp and that was Ruzica, the others will have to earn then wait their turn. DS knows who’s best option in each position.

 

Ruzicka didn't earn it they just didn't want to lose him on waivers., they sat him to start the season, then preceded to watch many veterans struggle and still sat him. Didn't play him until players got banged up. Same with Gilbert, Desimone and Mackey they only got played due to injury and they barely got played at that. He also proceeded to rip almost all of them in the media. That isn't exactly opportunity. 

 

But I should re frame this because I'm not trying to suggesting Sutter hates young players or wont play them. My problem with the quote is it's very conservative and speaks to playing scared. We aren't comfortably in a playoff spot so I can't risk putting a young player in a key spot in my lineup, even though those spots in my lineups are underwhelming. I can't play a small player on my 4th line because that's not how a 4th line should work. 

 

it's his old school guidelines that are frustrating, not that he hates youth. Sutter's forgotten more about hockey then i'll ever know, but I've never been a fan of his development philosophy. it hurt the Flames before and it's hurting them again now IMO. The Flames need more skill in their lineup. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Ruzicka didn't earn it they just didn't want to lose him on waivers., they sat him to start the season, then preceded to watch many veterans struggle and still sat him. Didn't play him until players got banged up. Same with Gilbert, Desimone and Mackey they only got played due to injury and they barely got played at that. He also proceeded to rip almost all of them in the media. That isn't exactly opportunity. 

 

But I should re frame this because I'm not trying to suggesting Sutter hates young players or wont play them. My problem with the quote is it's very conservative and speaks to playing scared. We aren't comfortably in a playoff spot so I can't risk putting a young player in a key spot in my lineup, even though those spots in my lineups are underwhelming. I can't play a small player on my 4th line because that's not how a 4th line should work. 

 

it's his old school guidelines that are frustrating, not that he hates youth. Sutter's forgotten more about hockey then i'll ever know, but I've never been a fan of his development philosophy. it hurt the Flames before and it's hurting them again now IMO. The Flames need more skill in their lineup. 

 

 

 

Well said.

+1