2022 Offseason

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Hopefully some clarity can start happening soon. Sure BT can use all the time he wants, but he's been in shackles since the season ended. This "11th hour for a better deal" thing that he always runs with has to end.

It's nothing but high risk and little reward, causes too much friction and really has a negative impact on cap management.

If this is happening again, it's likely time to part ways. It just doesn't work. It's like every contract has to be steeped in procrastination.

I mentioned a few seasons ago that this is a horrible technique, yet here we are with the same technique, more than likely.

What other GM leaves himself zero time to deal with other stuff? Time is money.

Even Nurse you can say is overpaid by $1.5-2. But Holland can move on and focus on other areas.

Zito got Barkov done last year at $10 x 8 starting this year. Done, off of his plate, move on.

Is BT going to keep dragging every negotiation all of the time?

 

Yups.  Not sure why it's always our players who get the 11th hour treatment.  From Giordano to Gaudreau, Tkachuk, etc.  Meanwhile other teams lock up their core guys a full year early.  I get that part of the players negotiating tactic is also to wait until the 11th hour but this is where BT needs to give a little bit.

 

While that's happening, BT throws money at mid-range UFAs like nothing.

 

This needs to change.

[cross16]

2 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Right now he doesn’t have a deal in place, once that is locked in his trade value decreases. It limits what a team can do.  Regardless of timing Tkachuk has the leverage.

 

Treliving can’t let the same thing that just happened with Gaudreau, happen with Tkachuk. 
 

I also think Tkachuk is smart enough to know that if he plays here next year, he isn’t going to be negotiating as a 100 point player that he is this off season. It’s in his best interest to get a long term deal done this year. He just has to decide if he wants to be in Calgary long term, and if he doesn’t then a trade is his best avenue. 

 

I agree on the last point. Everyone is assuming that because Tkachuk is all business he will leave Calgary but I would argue the opposite. If he is all about business then resigning here is probably his best bet.  He's coming off a career year and is in a situation where his organization just lost their best player and is sitting on a bunch of cap space.  Really the only reasons to leave are that he wants to, or he's not a believer the Flames will win the near future. 

 

But business wise I think this is his best situation. I am in agreement that the Flames cannot let Tkachuk go like Gaudraeu did I just don't' agree that this Friday has as much of an impact to his trade value. 

[The_People1]

I still feel with Gaudreau gone, Tkachuk would be smart to cash in using his 42G and 104P because he sure ain't going to repeat those numbers for next summer's negotiations.

 

Right now he's getting between Barkov and Point type deal... Next summer back at 75-points, he's back to $8-mil range.

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups.  Not sure why it's always our players who get the 11th hour treatment.  From Giordano to Gaudreau, Tkachuk, etc.  Meanwhile other teams lock up their core guys a full year early.  I get that part of the players negotiating tactic is also to wait until the 11th hour but this is where BT needs to give a little bit.

 

While that's happening, BT throws money at mid-range UFAs like nothing.

 

This needs to change.

 

Giordano was extended a full year before he became a UFA. 

[sak22]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups.  Not sure why it's always our players who get the 11th hour treatment.  From Giordano to Gaudreau, Tkachuk, etc.  Meanwhile other teams lock up their core guys a full year early.  I get that part of the players negotiating tactic is also to wait until the 11th hour but this is where BT needs to give a little bit.

 

While that's happening, BT throws money at mid-range UFAs like nothing.

 

This needs to change.

Gio signed his last 2 deals with the Flames well before hitting UFA.  I think when you look at Tampa, they are a contender, but did go 11th hour on Stamkos and Kucherov before.  Toronto had Nylander and Marner, Vancouver had Petterson, Colorado had Landeskog and Rantanen a few years back.  Its not a Calgary specific problem and its really only Tampa that isn't having problems at the moment.

[cross16]

53 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Gio signed his last 2 deals with the Flames well before hitting UFA.  I think when you look at Tampa, they are a contender, but did go 11th hour on Stamkos and Kucherov before.  Toronto had Nylander and Marner, Vancouver had Petterson, Colorado had Landeskog and Rantanen a few years back.  Its not a Calgary specific problem and its really only Tampa that isn't having problems at the moment.

 

It comes down to a UFA vs RFA. If you have a high profile UFA waiting is dangerous but it generally is not with an RFA. If you have the time you should use it IMO and it's been a successful strategy for them, as it has most the league. 

 

I get that the situation with Gaudreau is causing people to rethink that and while fair on an emotional level I think in the bigger picture the strategy will works. There are several red herring like factors that contributed to Gaudreau and it should also be pointed out the Flames did reach a verbal agreement with Gaudreau (by all accounts) then they got a different answer. 

 

It doesn't change the fact that small market teams can't let players like Gaudreau walk for nothing but that was true 2 weeks ago and a year ago. I don't think it's time to question the Flames negotiation strategy because i'm not sure leaving this to this 11th hour is what they did wrong here. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't really understand this logic though, What was Plan B suppose to be? What is Plan B when an elite offensive talent walks for nothing and there really isn't anything on the FA market that can come close to replacing him? What did people expect or want plan B to be?

 

Once Forsberg signed in Nashville I think your Plan B was gone as that was really the only talent available that could have realistically had a chance to "replace" what you lost in Gaudreau and fit the age range. Since then what deals are they missing out on?

 

Aside from the rebuild or not decision (which I am very confident is not up to Treliving) your plan now is you got to keep what you have. External upgrades are secondary at this point until you get those guys locked up. That becomes the plan. 

 

I don't know, but wasn't there some hallway decent players available on FA day?  Burakovsky signs in Seattle. Replaces some of what Gaudreau brings for about 50% of the salary.  A couple of years younger.  Just one example.  I get that he had to pivot last minute, but they perhaps should have been identifying players of interest in the off chance that a player that wasn't communicating interest or non-interest in an offer for a month.  

 

Plan B may not replace the missing offense entirely, but how do you show commitment to win to the other unsigned players?  Anyway, doesn't really matter at this point.  I guess we shall see the team when training camp starts.  Or at least some idea of it.  Things to do before then.  Maybe trades is the only way out of this.  Remaining UFA's not that exciting for long term.  Kadri and Milano maybe the best of what's left, assuming we have some interest in them.

  

[cross16]

39 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't know, but wasn't there some hallway decent players available on FA day?  Burakovsky signs in Seattle. Replaces some of what Gaudreau brings for about 50% of the salary.  A couple of years younger.  Just one example.  I get that he had to pivot last minute, but they perhaps should have been identifying players of interest in the off chance that a player that wasn't communicating interest or non-interest in an offer for a month.  

 

Plan B may not replace the missing offense entirely, but how do you show commitment to win to the other unsigned players?  Anyway, doesn't really matter at this point.  I guess we shall see the team when training camp starts.  Or at least some idea of it.  Things to do before then.  Maybe trades is the only way out of this.  Remaining UFA's not that exciting for long term.  Kadri and Milano maybe the best of what's left, assuming we have some interest in them.

  

 

This capture my point though. It's not like there are FA deals that are jumping to mind saying "Flames should have done that". 

 

I'm not debating either that their is work to be done, you'd be pretty silly not to make that point. I just think that just because it's quiet it's not a signal that they were not prepared or that there was no Plan B. Plan B when a player like Gaudreau leaves just gets very complicated and to me that is why you are not hearing from the Flames right now. They are working through a plan and we'll see what it is. Could be good, could be terrible but we'll find out either way. 

 

I just don't see a problem with how they've gone about business so far. 

[cross16]

Sounds like Mangiapane is interested in a longer term deal with the Flames. Yes this is Eric Francis but it's his agent putting this out there. 

 

[The_People1]

18 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Sounds like Mangiapane is interested in a longer term deal with the Flames. Yes this is Eric Francis but it's his agent putting this out there. 

 

 

If we go rebuild, then Mangiapane is one piece to trade to add more 1st round picks.  This is a deep draft coming up.

[JTech780]

19 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Sounds like Mangiapane is interested in a longer term deal with the Flames. Yes this is Eric Francis but it's his agent putting this out there. 

 

 

Listening to the interview, it sounds like Mangipane is comfortable here and sees this team turning things around quickly. That Treliving will be able to fill the holes with money left by Gaudreau and then Lucic and Monahan coming off the books next year. He mentioned that even Tkachuk is only here for 1 year they will still have 3 35 goal scorers on the top line.

[phoenix66]

11 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Listening to the interview, it sounds like Mangipane is comfortable here and sees this team turning things around quickly. That Treliving will be able to fill the holes with money left by Gaudreau and then Lucic and Monahan coming off the books next year. He mentioned that even Tkachuk is only here for 1 year they will still have 3 35 goal scorers on the top line.

Same.. even said if Matthew Isn't here .. Brad will make a trade for a quality player .. maybe reading too much into it , but if hes talking to Brad already on Mange, he may have inadvertently revealed he knows a Rebuild is not on the menu .. especially if thats what he has told his client about their long term outlook if hes recommending a multi year deal to him ..    also that there is a situation where Matthew is gone 

[MP5029]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups.  Not sure why it's always our players who get the 11th hour treatment.  From Giordano to Gaudreau, Tkachuk, etc.  Meanwhile other teams lock up their core guys a full year early.  I get that part of the players negotiating tactic is also to wait until the 11th hour but this is where BT needs to give a little bit.

 

While that's happening, BT throws money at mid-range UFAs like nothing.

 

This needs to change.

Solid point, 100% agree!

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Listening to the interview, it sounds like Mangipane is comfortable here and sees this team turning things around quickly. That Treliving will be able to fill the holes with money left by Gaudreau and then Lucic and Monahan coming off the books next year. He mentioned that even Tkachuk is only here for 1 year they will still have 3 35 goal scorers on the top line.

 

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Same.. even said if Matthew Isn't here .. Brad will make a trade for a quality player .. maybe reading too much into it , but if hes talking to Brad already on Mange, he knows a Rebuild is not on the menu .. especially if thats what he has told his client about their long term outlook if hes recommending a multi year deal to him 

 

You can read that a couple of ways.  Specifically, he is saying that with Tkachuk, they have 3x35+ goal scorers.  That's his belief that we re able to score that much this year.  And he implies that he expects to be on the top line.  

 

I am not discourage at this point.  I think the agent is just saying he doesn't want out.  For what it's worth.  I don't expect a low ball offer, but that could change the opinion if it happened.  If they had someone signed to replace him, then the lower offers make sense.  

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Solid point, 100% agree!

dont forget , in Johnnys case.. its been said Many time.. there were talks last summer, but Johnny shut them down when the season started saying he would not discuss contract again until season was over ..  if the player shuts them down the agent has to do as hes told 

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups.  Not sure why it's always our players who get the 11th hour treatment.  From Giordano to Gaudreau, Tkachuk, etc.  Meanwhile other teams lock up their core guys a full year early.  I get that part of the players negotiating tactic is also to wait until the 11th hour but this is where BT needs to give a little bit.

 

While that's happening, BT throws money at mid-range UFAs like nothing.

 

This needs to change.

 

The only way that happens is that you throw a high dollar offer at the player.  Would you have been comfortable in offering JH 9.75 to 10M last summer?  

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

You can read that a couple of ways.  Specifically, he is saying that with Tkachuk, they have 3x35+ goal scorers.  That's his belief that we re able to score that much this year.  And he implies that he expects to be on the top line.  

 

I am not discourage at this point.  I think the agent is just saying he doesn't want out.  For what it's worth.  I don't expect a low ball offer, but that could change the opinion if it happened.  If they had someone signed to replace him, then the lower offers make sense.  

oh totally .. my only point was his comments tell me , that a rebuild is not an option .. and there is a scenario that Matthew will be gone..  so if Tkachuk signs his deal expect him to be moved .. they wont sit on him .. worst case he doesnt sign it .. hold out .. and they trade him then 

[travel_dude]

Just now, phoenix66 said:

dont forget , in Johnnys case.. its been said Many time.. there were talks last summer, but Johnny shut them down when the season started saying he would not discuss contract again until season was over ..  if the player shuts them down the agent has to do as hes told 

 

We don't really know the conversation do we.  All summer long was there big offers being talked about?  Or were they looking at a reduced AAV because he was coming off a crap year?  Why would he sign for $8M in a summer with no leverage?  

 

Anyway, I don't really know.  

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

We don't really know the conversation do we.  All summer long was there big offers being talked about?  Or were they looking at a reduced AAV because he was coming off a crap year?  Why would he sign for $8M in a summer with no leverage?  

 

Anyway, I don't really know.  

oh i guarantee the offers were nowhere near what he even ended up with ..   he bet on himself and won , kudos to him 

[travel_dude]

Just now, phoenix66 said:

oh i guarantee the offers were nowhere near what he even ended up with ..   he bet on himself and won , kudos to him 

 

I was just saying if you want to ensure you have a player signed, sometimes you have to do the offer you don't like.  If he wasn't going to sign, you may know sooner.  Who knows.

[jjgallow]

33 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

oh i guarantee the offers were nowhere near what he even ended up with ..   he bet on himself and won , kudos to him 

 

I heard $7m, not that this means  anything

[sak22]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I was just saying if you want to ensure you have a player signed, sometimes you have to do the offer you don't like.  If he wasn't going to sign, you may know sooner.  Who knows.

Like our friends to the north did with Nurse?

[cross16]

Article from Winters comments around Mangiapane today. 

 

Coles notes, Mang is interested in staying, has made a multi year offer/discussion with the Flames and him staying is not contingent on Tkachuk. 

 

https://dailyhive.com/calgary/mangiapane-pitch-flames-long-term-deal

[conundrumed]

48 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Article from Winters comments around Mangiapane today. 

 

Coles notes, Mang is interested in staying, has made a multi year offer/discussion with the Flames and him staying is not contingent on Tkachuk. 

 

https://dailyhive.com/calgary/mangiapane-pitch-flames-long-term-deal

Which is all good and well, but what's the number?

"You may not get a Matthew Tkachuk type, but you might get an Alex DeBrincat type".

DeBrincat is currently $6.4.

[tmac70]

With regards to Matthew, as his agent, from a pure money/business perspective signing a 4-6 year deal is his best advantage. The JG departure gives Matthew leverage now but it also provides the Flames with leverage. We all know in order to get more he has to prodcue similar if not better than the year before. The odds are his point percentage drops 25-35%  decreasing his value by 1-1.5 Million a season. Right now because he may be able to squeeze $500,000 more a year out of the organization, pretty sure that erodes to a 1.5-2 million dollar per year reduction if he puts up a 70-75 point season. From where I sit the longer he holds out the worse it gets on his end, a one year contract does nothing for either side. IMHO he will either sign longer term or try to facilitate a trade to where he wants to go are his best options, the QO is not.