2022 Offseason

[cross16]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Why not?  Panarin never hit Gaudreau's numbers.

 

Age, consistency, economic environment and size. Panarin was the better bet in all of those categories.

 

I could be wrong, i'm just saying it would really surprise me if he surpasses Panarin's deal. 

[cross16]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I could be wrong, but wasn't it 80.5 back then?

Even if it wasn't, things have changed.

We know that in about 3 or 4 years the cap will jump by more than usual.

In that year, his % of cap will drop.

 

I don't know one way or the other if the money part is the reason for the delay. 

What I do know is last time, he settled.  If this was their final offer, then fine.

If it's a starting offer, then find out what they feel about it.

9.5 is fair but seems low.

10 is fair.

 

 

81.5. 

[cross16]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

Should we be interested in Colin White?  A year ago, some of us suggested we trade Monahan for White to get away from Monahan... now White can be had via UFA.  RHS Center.

 

 

 

I'd rather give Ruzicka the shot to be honest. I know he isn't a RS but develop your own first. 

[phoenix66]

25 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I know. I'm dreaming.  Just want to somehow do an accelerated retool.

We have a top center , we have a top Lw.. we have a 30+goal middle 6 winger playing with a 20 goal scorer .. one of the top top 3 d, a Vezina runner up goaltender . One of the best shut down centers .. 

We're not exactly thin that this needs to be stripped down 

[sak22]

Not that the Flames could do it, but since his name has been on users trade proposals for a while now

 

 

 

I wonder about the 12th + Ceulemans or something.  If Arizona gets the the 12th it will give them 8 picks before the Flames pick, if Columbus throws in the 2nd its 9.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

We have a top center , we have a top Lw.. we have a 30+goal middle 6 winger playing with a 20 goal scorer .. one of the top top 3 d, a Vezina runner up goaltender . One of the best shut down centers .. 

We're not exactly thin that this needs to be stripped down 

 

Gaudreau IS our #1 line.  If he goes, then so does the numbers for Lindholm and Tkachuk.  They are 65 to 70-point players without Gaudreau.  The money left by Gaudreau might be used up by Mangiapane, Zadorov, Gudbranson, and Kylington.  There's no more to go get a Forsberg.  We return the same team minus Gaudreau but suppose to be Cup contenders?  Just don't see it.  Yes we are still a playoff team but I must ask, what's the point?  Are you happy with a one and done next year?

 

Moreover, our D is average only.  Exposed during the playoff run.  We need to add a #1 D and if we could only draft Nemec or Jiricek to solve that problem...

 

Markstrom also choked when it all mattered.   I'm hopeful Wolf is the real deal... Markstrom is also 32 so a decline could begin at any moment.  Transitioning to Wolf still needs a year or three so use that time well to rebuild.

 

And there's no shame in retooling on the fly while we have assets as opposed to having nothing.  In 2013 we had nothing and is one reason why our rebuild went to slow and wrong.  If we have some pieces to trade to accelerate our rebuild, then different story.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

Not that the Flames could do it, but since his name has been on users trade proposals for a while now

 

 

 

I wonder about the 12th + Ceulemans or something.  If Arizona gets the the 12th it will give them 8 picks before the Flames pick, if Columbus throws in the 2nd its 9.

 

The whole point of getting a #1 D is to win right now but if Gaudreau leaves then forget about it.  Better to keep the picks and prospects in that scenario.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Gaudreau IS our #1 line.  If he goes, then so does the numbers for Lindholm and Tkachuk.  They are 65 to 70-point players without Gaudreau.  The money left by Gaudreau might be used up by Mangiapane, Zadorov, Gudbranson, and Kylington.  There's no more to go get a Forsberg.  We return the same team minus Gaudreau but suppose to be Cup contenders?  Just don't see it.  Yes we are still a playoff team but I must ask, what's the point?  Are you happy with a one and done next year?

 

Moreover, our D is average only.  Exposed during the playoff run.  We need to add a #1 D and if we could only draft Nemec or Jiricek to solve that problem...

 

Markstrom also choked when it all mattered.   I'm hopeful Wolf is the real deal... Markstrom is also 32 so a decline could begin at any moment.  Transitioning to Wolf still needs a year or three so use that time well to rebuild.

 

And there's no shame in retooling on the fly while we have assets as opposed to having nothing.  In 2013 we had nothing and is one reason why our rebuild went to slow and wrong.  If we have some pieces to trade to accelerate our rebuild, then different story.

- The #1 line is a collective. You're not going to convince me JH would have got the same #s last season playing with Backlund and Coleman.

 

- Above average, stats back it up. Speed is an issue yes but #1 Ds cost money and drafting is always a dice roll.

 

- Markstrom had a bad series, we get it.  We should write him off just like T Bay wrote off Vasilevsky after that series against Columbus. Oh wait.....

 

- The sky isnt falling, theres alot to move forward with, and the team is in a position this off season the fans are not used to.  The next week will have some answers along with some more questions.

 

 

 

 

[The_People1]

9 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

- The #1 line is a collective. You're not going to convince me JH would have got the same #s last season playing with Backlund and Coleman.

 

- Above average, stats back it up. Speed is an issue yes but #1 Ds cost money and drafting is always a dice roll.

 

- Markstrom had a bad series, we get it.  We should write him off just like T Bay wrote off Vasilevsky after that series against Columbus. Oh wait.....

 

- The sky isnt falling, theres alot to move forward with, and the team is in a position this off season the fans are not used to.  The next week will have some answers along with some more questions.

 

Do you agree that if we lose Gaudreau, then the sky has fallen?  

[robrob74]

I agree with the People, uou

look At Lindholm’s and Tkachuk’s stats without Johnny and they’re about 70 point players. Tkachuk could be higher or lower.  His highest season was 77 points prior to and he’s averaged almost 71 points per 82 games in the previous 3 seasons before playing with Johnny. That doesn’t mean they’re not good players, but is

Tkachuk worth 9+ if he’s scoring at a 75point clip per season?

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Do you agree that if we lose Gaudreau, then the sky has fallen?  

No.

[MP5029]

7 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I agree with the People, uou

look At Lindholm’s and Tkachuk’s stats without Johnny and they’re about 70 point players. Tkachuk could be higher or lower.  His highest season was 77 points prior to and he’s averaged almost 71 points per 82 games in the previous 3 seasons before playing with Johnny. That doesn’t mean they’re not good players, but is

Tkachuk worth 9+ if he’s scoring at a 75point clip per season?

Or you can look at Gaudreau’s numbers without Tachuck and Lindholm…

 

I seem to recall he’s not quite as good without them…it’s the chemistry the trio have

 

hockey is a team game that requires chemistry between players…this is why McDavid called Puvi a play killer, lack

of chemistry with players on that team.

 

now having said that, high end players can find chemistry with lots of players, like Gaudreau with Monahan, Lindholm and Tachuck (and yes some of that was cause they are/were also high end players too)

 

so yes, having Gaudreau back is absolutely something to shoot for, but if not it’s not the end of the world…i

figure Manji can slot In on the top line just fine if we can’t land another top LW…having said that, then we need to

rebuild the 22nd line, so loosing Gaudreau means we need a lot more work

in the off season vs just hole filling…

 

I’m hopeful he signs and that Monahan can be fully healthy for a solid season as the #2 Ctr.

 

trade Backlund and maybe even Lucic to balance out the 3rd and 4th lines a little would be a huge improvement!

 

also, if they can bring back big z again would be great (or another big mean D that also can skate and shoot), not a top D but solid middle D for the 2nd or 3rd pairing…

 

then maybe with a wing and a prayer nab a #1 d somehow would be the only thing outstanding…something 

[cross16]

9 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I agree with the People, uou

look At Lindholm’s and Tkachuk’s stats without Johnny and they’re about 70 point players. Tkachuk could be higher or lower.  His highest season was 77 points prior to and he’s averaged almost 71 points per 82 games in the previous 3 seasons before playing with Johnny. That doesn’t mean they’re not good players, but is

Tkachuk worth 9+ if he’s scoring at a 75point clip per season?

 

Yes

[cross16]

2 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Or you can look at Gaudreau’s numbers without Tachuck and Lindholm…

 

I seem to recall he’s not quite as good without them…it’s the chemistry the trio have

 

This is a great point that doesn't get enough talk IMO. The focus is always on what Gaudreau did for those 2 and never about how those 2 helped Gaudreau. 

 

I do think Gaudreau mostly stirred the drink but he owes a lot of his season to those 2 guys too. I know Gaudrau already had a 99 point season so the tendency is to say his game was already there but to increase that by 4 goals, 16 points AND have the line perform at a much higher and consistent level than the 2019 season speaks to the impact Tkachuk had on that line. 

 

I'm not of the belief the bottom falls out here if Gaudreau walks. It probably makes a cup more unlikely but i'm not sure it changes the odds as much as we think as i'm not sure the odds are that great even with Gaudreau here. I'm a big believer it takes high end talent to win a cup and the Flames needed more even if they can keep Gaudreau. if he walks you are just filling an ever deeper hole now. 

 

Possible though and what they do next would be very key. 

 

 

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

17 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

This is a great point that doesn't get enough talk IMO. The focus is always on what Gaudreau did for those 2 and never about how those 2 helped Gaudreau. 

 

I do think Gaudreau mostly stirred the drink but he owes a lot of his season to those 2 guys too. I know Gaudrau already had a 99 point season so the tendency is to say his game was already there but to increase that by 4 goals, 16 points AND have the line perform at a much higher and consistent level than the 2019 season speaks to the impact Tkachuk had on that line. 

 

I'm not of the belief the bottom falls out here if Gaudreau walks. It probably makes a cup more unlikely but i'm not sure it changes the odds as much as we think as i'm not sure the odds are that great even with Gaudreau here. I'm a big believer it takes high end talent to win a cup and the Flames needed more even if they can keep Gaudreau. if he walks you are just filling an ever deeper hole now. 

 

Possible though and what they do next would be very key. 

 

 

 

In all honesty the glue on that line is Lindholm. He was a big part of Johnnys 99 pt season. Now he's the C on a line that put career #s up for all 3 players. You absolutely want to keep your top guys and pay them accordingly but it seems not enough credit is going towards Lindy which may be slightly over valuing his linemates.  

[phoenix66]

19 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

This is a great point that doesn't get enough talk IMO. The focus is always on what Gaudreau did for those 2 and never about how those 2 helped Gaudreau. 

 

I do think Gaudreau mostly stirred the drink but he owes a lot of his season to those 2 guys too. I know Gaudrau already had a 99 point season so the tendency is to say his game was already there but to increase that by 4 goals, 16 points AND have the line perform at a much higher and consistent level than the 2019 season speaks to the impact Tkachuk had on that line. 

 

I'm not of the belief the bottom falls out here if Gaudreau walks. It probably makes a cup more unlikely but i'm not sure it changes the odds as much as we think as i'm not sure the odds are that great even with Gaudreau here. I'm a big believer it takes high end talent to win a cup and the Flames needed more even if they can keep Gaudreau. if he walks you are just filling an ever deeper hole now. 

 

Possible though and what they do next would be very key. 

 

 

 

This...

 

This is what I've been saying..no doubt we are a better team with Johnny on it ..  but just look one season back, he struggled with Monahan in decline .. this year you had 3 studs on one line and it showed . I don't think enough credit is given to Lindholm 

With Johnny we need a top 2nd line center 

Without we need that and a quality top line winger 

 

Whatever happens , we know BT won't be caught off guard.. but I gotta say that the talk of losing Johnny makes us a lottery team, or that we shouid just gut it all and become one really gets under my skin .. were not an Iggy or bust team anymore 

[The_People1]

42 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

This is a great point that doesn't get enough talk IMO. 

 

Because it doesn't require talking about since the situation we are facing is Lindholm and Tkachuk losing Gaudreau, not the other way around.

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Because it doesn't require talking about since the situation we are facing is Lindholm and Tkachuk losing Gaudreau, not the other way around.

But it does ... It's saying that Lindholm was the catalyst for that line ..

Johnny struggled late with Monahan.. he needs the top center to be at his best ..that's not a knock, just the way it is .. a year ago we were trading him out of town 

If Monahan had still been centering that line both Johnny and Chucky have much lower seasons 

It says if you plug another quality top line quality winger in Johnny's spot that player will have a good season likely as well 

 

The line driver is the player that not only has a great season for himself but also lifts the other 2.. that was Lindholm this season 

[sak22]

10 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I agree with the People, uou

look At Lindholm’s and Tkachuk’s stats without Johnny and they’re about 70 point players. Tkachuk could be higher or lower.  His highest season was 77 points prior to and he’s averaged almost 71 points per 82 games in the previous 3 seasons before playing with Johnny. That doesn’t mean they’re not good players, but is

Tkachuk worth 9+ if he’s scoring at a 75point clip per season?

Well look at Barzal's stats with Tavares and then look at his stats without Tavares, add in that nobody replaced Tavares point per game.  But with better coaching they turned into the best team at keeping the puck out of their net and were a very tough playoff team until this year.  The Flames already had the coach and are coming off a year they were 3rd in goals against, that we could say given the coach we expected the goals for nobody expected, but the coach has done more with less prolific offenses in the past.

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

But it does ... It's saying that Lindholm was the catalyst for that line ..

Johnny struggled late with Monahan.. he needs the top center to be at his best ..that's not a knock, just the way it is .. a year ago we were trading him out of town 

If Monahan had still been centering that line both Johnny and Chucky have much lower seasons 

It says if you plug another quality top line quality winger in Johnny's spot that player will have a good season likely as well 

 

The line driver is the player that not only has a great season for himself but also lifts the other 2.. that was Lindholm this season 

 

Any way you slice it, we lose in the 30-40 goal and 100 point range.  That takes us from 6th in scoring to 16th.  And that's not even considering the quality of passes coming from Gaudreau.  Lets just say we plug in Mangiapane, who is next up in scoring and points.  He might continue to score 35 but how does he contribute to Tkachuk and Lindholm's scoring.  He's more of a finisher.

 

All you need to do is look at a dozen of those guy's goals.  Without even really looking hard, you see passes to the slot.  Who replaces that?  I get the opposite argument.  It's true as well, but you can't take away 75 assists and expect the same.  Lindholm had a great season, but his assist rate was half of Gaudreau's.  

 

Bottom line is if we lose JH to FA, we have to pay about $8M to get back some of his impact.  Whether that makes us still a contender or not is anyone's guess.

[cross16]

50 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Because it doesn't require talking about since the situation we are facing is Lindholm and Tkachuk losing Gaudreau, not the other way around.

 

That doesn't make any sense. We shouldn't talk about the impact of all 3 of those guys on the line or the fact that there is plenty of reason to believe that line could be very good even without Gaudreau?

 

The point here is that while he is an very good hockey player that line doesn't owe all of their success to Gaudreau. 

[phoenix66]

20 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Any way you slice it, we lose in the 30-40 goal and 100 point range.  That takes us from 6th in scoring to 16th.  And that's not even considering the quality of passes coming from Gaudreau.  Lets just say we plug in Mangiapane, who is next up in scoring and points.  He might continue to score 35 but how does he contribute to Tkachuk and Lindholm's scoring.  He's more of a finisher.

 

All you need to do is look at a dozen of those guy's goals.  Without even really looking hard, you see passes to the slot.  Who replaces that?  I get the opposite argument.  It's true as well, but you can't take away 75 assists and expect the same.  Lindholm had a great season, but his assist rate was half of Gaudreau's.  

 

Bottom line is if we lose JH to FA, we have to pay about $8M to get back some of his impact.  Whether that makes us still a contender or not is anyone's guess.

100% agree.. you don't replace Johnny with one player .. but just like Gio and the D last year you can replace him by committee 

 

Just as an example

 

 (and I'm just using names to illustrate .so just forget about the cap and likelihood for a moment )

 

what if you lost Johnny but we're able to pick up Kadri and Forsberg.. solves the 2nd line issue which makes Toffoli better ..top line is still deadly.. your top 2 lines wouid be more dangerous as a whole as they were last season 

 

 

Some of this is party why I'd entertain seeing the market for Tkachuk.. his value won't be much higher, and broken hand or not when the game got fast against Edmonton he got left behind ..when the team can't slow the game down he's at a disadvantage..

What if u could get a top pick and a speedy winger ..can't think of a name right now .. but if you could land Kadri you get back that pest factor 

Like I say ..not advocating moving him..but in the right deal it would make sense 

 

 

[travel_dude]

21 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

100% agree.. you don't replace Johnny with one player .. but just like Gio and the D last year you can replace him by committee 

 

Just as an example

 

 (and I'm just using names to illustrate .so just forget about the cap and likelihood for a moment )

 

what if you lost Johnny but we're able to pick up Kadri and Forsberg.. solves the 2nd line issue which makes Toffoli better ..top line is still deadly.. your top 2 lines wouid be more dangerous as a whole as they were last season 

 

 

Some of this is party why I'd entertain seeing the market for Tkachuk.. his value won't be much higher, and broken hand or not when the game got fast against Edmonton he got left behind ..when the team can't slow the game down he's at a disadvantage..

What if u could get a top pick and a speedy winger ..can't think of a name right now .. but if you could land Kadri you get back that pest factor 

Like I say ..not advocating moving him..but in the right deal it would make sense 

 

 

 

D by committee to replace an aging vet is one thing.

For sure, if we replace JH with Kadri and Forsberg we would have more scoring and likely a better team.

That's also kinda the point, we need at least one comp player to replace him.

And we have to delve into FA to do it, since we lost via FA.

 

If we lose JH, then we have to have a serious conversation about Tkachuk.  Is he what we need?  We are down to Lindholm and Backlund as our two top C.  Monahan dropped to an after thought.  Give Backs credit for stepping up, but you can only hope he stays competitive longer than a couple of years.  Here we are again.  

 

EDIT:  Yes, I know the total for Kadri and Forsberg would be about $8M more than just Johnny.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

 Whatever happens , we know BT won't be caught off guard.. but I gotta say that the talk of losing Johnny makes us a lottery team, or that we shouid just gut it all and become one really gets under my skin .. were not an Iggy or bust team anymore 

 

I don't recall one single person suggest the Flames will be a lottery team if they lose Gaudreau so what has gotten under your skin?  I believe we all know we won't be a lotto team if Gaudreau leaves.  No.  Instead, we will be even worse.  We will be a "middling team".

 

Borderline playoff team.  One and done once getting in.  Good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to win the Cup.  Bad enough to miss the playoffs but not bad enough to have great lotto odds.  You know.  The worst place to be as a franchise.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

But it does ... It's saying that Lindholm was the catalyst for that line ..

Johnny struggled late with Monahan.. he needs the top center to be at his best ..that's not a knock, just the way it is .. a year ago we were trading him out of town 

If Monahan had still been centering that line both Johnny and Chucky have much lower seasons 

It says if you plug another quality top line quality winger in Johnny's spot that player will have a good season likely as well 

 

The line driver is the player that not only has a great season for himself but also lifts the other 2.. that was Lindholm this season 

 

Clearly, all three benefitted playing together and became THE best line in the NHL.  All three will suffer if one of the three does not return.  The chemistry will be near impossible to match if any one of them has to be replaced.