2022 Offseason

[flames for life]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

WAS traded Forsberg for Erat and later won the cup.

STL didn't trade the farm and went on to win the cup.

Some things are historical and some are hysterical.

What did you learn from COL?

Wait 26 years to get it right again?

While the ultimate prize is the cup, a successful team is one that can maintain a certain level of play and talent without attempting to tank for drafts, or sell the future.  We’ve had 2 top draft picks in Bennett and Tkachuk, and few people on this board would consider them elite.  I get frustrated when we do gain high end players, and the first comments are they aren’t good enough, or how fast can we package him for a trade.  To develop good draft picks mean we have to develop anyone we get, regardless of when they were drafted.  Otherwise, we will get stuck in a perpetual state of negative rebuild!  We have positive affirmation for developed players in Mangepane, Kylington, Dube, and Andersson, with a crop waiting in the wings.  They are not elite, but they are the very guts of successful contenders.  They are the blueprint foundations toward a cup; not perpetual trade bait!!

TD, there’s a fine line between “realist” and “nihilist.”  Make sure you don’t take that doomsday leap, or no success will be enough!

[Thebrewcrew]

I thought the Flames might be rebuilding when Tkachuk wanted a trade.

 

The package from FLA put an end to that notion.

 

I get it, everyone wants to be TB or COL. That's fair, they're the class of the league.

 

But for every TB and COL, there's an ARI, BUF and NJ.

 

Now NJ may be turning it around finally, but this is a franchise that's made the playoffs once since the last lockout. They've missed in 9 of 10 seasons. They might end up being a very good team, but it's no sure thing

 

ARI has missed the playoffs in 9 of 10 seasons. The bubble is their only playoff appearance since 2012. They've picked high, it hasn't worked.

 

BUF has missed the playoffs in 11 consecutive seasons. They followed the "burn it down" protocol. It hasn't worked and now they're on their second rebuild within the original rebuild.

 

There are zero guarantees when you are drafting teenaged kids. You could end up like TB or you could be BUF. It's an incredibly large risk and that's why ownership groups rarely have the stomach for it. There's a lot of ugly hockey and 25% full crowds when you walk that path.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

The NBA and NFL are different beasts.  I would rather watch something where we are contenders now vs stuck in the cycle of rebuilds that so rarely go right.  Have there been any recent success stories of rebuilds?  How long did Tampa flounder before they got a cup?  10th year of Hedman and 7th of Kucherov.  Does the fact that they only won in "special" years of the SC?  COL circled the drain for many years, went up went down.  Added through trade and TDL deal just enough to get a cup.  Those are pretty long rebuilds and only two recent ones that managed to get it right.

mat least Tampa were contenders more often than not for a while before they won the cup. We might have been considered contenders last year but didn't play like one in the playoffs. I'd love to be team considered to be a contender every year, and not miss a few years then so great in one then miss a few again. 
 

yea it took Tampa a few years, but they're really good the last 6 years or so. 

[jjgallow]

12 minutes ago, flames for life said:

While the ultimate prize is the cup, a successful team is one that can maintain a certain level of play

 

I agree with the first part but this second part might be a bit to vague

 

12 minutes ago, flames for life said:

and talent without attempting to tank for drafts, or sell the future.  We’ve had 2 top draft picks in Bennett and Tkachuk, and few people on this board would consider them elite.

 

You don't think Tkachuk is elite?    I'm not sorry to see him go but I always felt he was elite.

 

Monahan and Bennett were, imho, both elite and both mismanaged (different thread).   I think most would agree on Monahan being elite when healthy, at very least.    

 

I actually don't mind how the Flames have drafted with their top 10 picks.    My beefs lie elsewhere, for a different thread.

 

12 minutes ago, flames for life said:

 I get frustrated when we do gain high end players, and the first comments are they aren’t good enough, or how fast can we package him for a trade.  To develop good draft picks mean we have to develop anyone we get, regardless of when they were drafted.  Otherwise, we will get stuck in a perpetual state of negative rebuild!  We have positive affirmation for developed players in Mangepane, Kylington, Dube, and Andersson, with a crop waiting in the wings.  They are not elite, but they are the very guts of successful contenders.  They are the blueprint foundations toward a cup; not perpetual trade bait!!

TD, there’s a fine line between “realist” and “nihilist.”  Make sure you don’t take that doomsday leap, or no success will be enough!

 

Agreed

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

These kids aren't blue chippers.  They are Mangiapane and Backlund level prospects.  They are nice to round out a roster but aren't going to extend a Cup winning window.

 

Wolf might be the exception because G is a game changing position in hockey.  But we will have to see.

Nobody knows that. Kucherov, Terry, Kyrou, Thomas etc weren’t blue chippers. Fox in the 3rd rd? Nobody knows a blue chipper until they are one.

[conundrumed]

Boris Katchouk is another low risk I’d like to take a chance on. He’s edgy but needs better chances than “maybe” TBay’s 4th line. He’s in Chicago now. He’s a Thomas-type edgy player but LW.

Just no opportunity yet. TBay was deep and hired vets. Never gave him much of a chance.

For, say, Zary, I’d do that. Chicago gets a younger prospect.

[phoenix66]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I know about that one as well.  Just a couple though, right?  Girard.  Hronek?  Kyrou took 6 years before he stuck, so that make the rebuild with players like him extremely long.

what hurts most about him is that was our pick.. Brian Elliot Deal     but hey , it was a good move at the time 

[robrob74]

12 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

what hurts most about him is that was our pick.. Brian Elliot Deal     but hey , it was a good move at the time 

i totally get that we needed a goalie. I didn't like the deal though. I just didn't think the team's problems were goaltending as much as the holes on D or more the way we defended. I felt unless a bonafied starter, it was doomed to fail. I was one of the only ones that didn't like the target at the time.

[jjgallow]

19 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

what hurts most about him is that was our pick.. Brian Elliot Deal     but hey , it was a good move at the time 

 

Sure it was lol

[phoenix66]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

i totally get that we needed a goalie. I didn't like the deal though. I just didn't think the team's problems were goaltending as much as the holes on D or more the way we defended. I felt unless a bonafied starter, it was doomed to fail. I was one of the only ones that didn't like the target at the time.

Dude ..we were coming off Kari Ramo and Hillier .. we did go and try Bishop first (thank God that failed ) and Toronto outbid us for Anderson.. he was the best option and a definite upgrade .

[Thebrewcrew]

I think it's fair to say that the Brian Elliott's time in Calgary has been jaded by his playoff performance. I get it, I'm guilty of it too. Thing is, he was excellent down the stretch in 17, the Flames don't make the playoffs without him.

 

That trade is still a talking point because the Blues took Kyrou with the pick. I know Kyrou was a name a lot of us liked on this board prior to the 16 draft. Thing is though, who knows what the Flames board looked like, maybe they would have taken Pascal Laberge, who went 1 pick later.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Nobody knows that. Kucherov, Terry, Kyrou, Thomas etc weren’t blue chippers. Fox in the 3rd rd? Nobody knows a blue chipper until they are one.

 

Kucherov was known,  it was more of a Russia thing.  Opportunities like that still kinda exist if you find a kid in a poorly scouted country or in cases where it's not clear they'll come (Fox a bit like this too).

 

Cale Makar in the AJHL....etc etc

[phoenix66]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

Best part of this.. is now it we can keep mange under 7 we are no longer forced to move Monahan and or Lucic... Shouid we or will we?  Perhaps . But now we aren't forced into paying to move them ..maybe eat some salary ..

[Thebrewcrew]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Dude ..we were coming off Kari Ramo and Hillier .. we did go and try Bishop first (thank God that failed ) and Toronto outbid us for Anderson.. he was the best option and a definite upgrade .

The Flames were expected to regress in 15/16, but goaltending absolutely sunk that team. The were in the mix for large portions of that season.

 

Hiller posted a .879

Backstrom went .881

Ortio posted a .902

Ramo was .909

 

None of those goalies ever played in the NHL again

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Best part of this.. is now it we can keep mange under 7 we are no longer forced to move Monahan and or Lucic... Shouid we or will we?  Perhaps . But now we aren't forced into paying to move them ..maybe eat some salary ..

The longer this plays out, the more I'm thinking Mangiapane takes a 2yr deal in the 5-6 range. Gets him back on the market at age 28. Gets him a little security, but he's also not locked in for too long with uncertainty around the future of the team

 

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Dude ..we were coming off Kari Ramo and Hillier .. we did go and try Bishop first (thank God that failed ) and Toronto outbid us for Anderson.. he was the best option and a definite upgrade .

i get it, doesn't mean I had to like Elliott. I felt his numbers were propped by a good blues D.

[robrob74]

9 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think it's fair to say that the Brian Elliott's time in Calgary has been jaded by his playoff performance. I get it, I'm guilty of it too. Thing is, he was excellent down the stretch in 17, the Flames don't make the playoffs without him.

 

That trade is still a talking point because the Blues took Kyrou with the pick. I know Kyrou was a name a lot of us liked on this board prior to the 16 draft. Thing is though, who knows what the Flames board looked like, maybe they would have taken Pascal Laberge, who went 1 pick later.

i didn't want him at the time of the trade. Even before the playoff. I remember thinking how we sucked and tend to still suck on transition d, giving up breakaways and thinking Elliott wasn't the answer.

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

The Flames were expected to regress in 15/16, but goaltending absolutely sunk that team. The were in the mix for large portions of that season.

 

Hiller posted a .879

Backstrom went .881

Ortio posted a .902

Ramo was .909

 

None of those goalies ever played in the NHL again

The longer this plays out, the more I'm thinking Mangiapane takes a 2yr deal in the 5-6 range. Gets him back on the market at age 28. Gets him a little security, but he's also not locked in for too long with uncertainty around the future of the team

 

Ugh . Forgot about the Backstrom experiment..

 

Ya that's my thinking too.. can't wait to see the arb numbers tomorrow.   My guess is the flames ask a 2x5.5.  Mange side wants a 1x7 

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

i get it, doesn't mean I had to like Elliott. I felt his numbers were propped by a good blues D.

That was definitely true in the end.   Kinda why I'm glad the tkachuk deal didn't go to st Louis.. scandella was a buyout waiting to happen 

 

Friedman had an interesting point on his last 32 thoughts .. blues were trying to move Tarasenko and scandella before , the flames did get word that an offer sheet was likely to happen . And the culprit was St Louis..  they were trying to clear cap to do it ..so when flames pulled the arbitration swerve they were caught unprepared and only really had those 2 to offer .. there was never a Kyrou in the deal . 

I would have been ok with Tarasenko but there had to be way more for me 

[Thebrewcrew]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

i didn't want him at the time of the trade. Even before the playoff. I remember thinking how we sucked and tend to still suck on transition d, giving up breakaways and thinking Elliott wasn't the answer.

He was coming off a really good season and playoff with the Blues. The Flames didn't have a ton of options, they needed goalies. It was rumoured Ben Bishop would cost them the Tkachuk pick. They could have given the 5yr deal to Reimer that he got from FLA, but that wasn't a good deal.

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, Thebrewcrew said:

He was coming off a really good season and playoff with the Blues. The Flames didn't have a ton of options, they needed goalies. It was rumoured Ben Bishop would cost them the Tkachuk pick. They could have given the 5yr deal to Reimer that he got from FLA, but that wasn't a good deal.

ya, I get what you mean, I was worried that he was being propped up by a good Blues defensive system. It might have taken him a bit to get used to Calgary but at the time I remember calling out the trade because I didnt believe he'd prop us enough to get passed a first round. 

[Thebrewcrew]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

ya, I get what you mean, I was worried that he was being propped up by a good Blues defensive system. It might have taken him a bit to get used to Calgary but at the time I remember calling out the trade because I didnt believe he'd prop us enough to get passed a first round. 

The Blues were so stingy under Hitch, that definitely helped his numbers.

 

I think it ended up being an ok trade. He got the Flames to the playoffs but struggled against Anaheim. It's what STL did with the pick that tips the scales dramatically in their favour.

[phoenix66]

That actually is pretty darn impressive when you think about it .. 

 

 

 

 

[sak22]

4 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

You don't want a contender?  You only want something that is watchable?

 

The cycle of life for sports franchises goes though rebuilds.  Doesn't matter if it's the Lakers, Yankees, Cowboys, etc.  They rebuild.  Sometimes for 5 years.  And their fans embrace every stage of the cycle.

Actually they don't.  The Lakers started sucking the later years of Kobe, did they draft their way out of it, nope, got Lebron and Anthony Davis instead, won a championship and are bad again.  Yankees have never really been in a rebuild and haven't had a losing season in 30 years, the holes they lack in development they fill via free agency.  I've spent a lot of time in Dallas over the years, patience and Cowboy fans are 2 words that don't go hand in hand.  The Flames aren't on those levels because those teams don't even have to sell a ticket and make billions.  But your also comparing 3 of the most valuable sports teams in North America to a middle of the pack NHL team that is struggling to fill the building for a winning team.

[JTech780]

I wouldn’t be trading Hanifin any time soon, Weegar is only signed for the upcoming season. So if he leaves and you trade Hanifin, you only have two top 4 defensemen signed past this season.

[Thebrewcrew]

I think Mang signs in the 5-6 range and Ruzicka will likely get the QO treatment, 787,500.

 

That puts the Flames at 22 players and they are still below the cap. If they are content with their roster, they don't have to move assets to offload a Monahan/Lucic