2022 Offseason

[JTech780]

So from everything I have read and seen these seem to be the two most popular proposals, just curious which one everyone prefers.

 

NJ: Jesper Bratt, Alex Holtz, 2023 1st

STL: Jordan Kyrou, Jake Neighbors, 2023 1st

 

I think right now I like the NJ offer, Kyrou is probably the best player, but I think Holtz is better than Neighbors and the NJ 1st will be the better pick. The difference between Bratt and Kyrou on paper isn’t huge.

[Sarasti]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Likewise, Columbus will never win a cup or have much playoff success with Gaudreau.   I almost feel like he went there because the playoffs were too hard for him (especially with Sutter).

 

Whoever acquires Tkachuk, no cups for them either.

 

Neither of these guys really showed up for us in the playoffs which is the #1 reason they should have been traded years ago.   It's also a tell that they're likely to renegade if you put faith in them.  Teams like New York can acquire individuals.     But acquiring team players, is just as hard for them if not harder than others.     Will be a long time before they get another Messier if ever.

 

Agree to a certain extent on Gaudreau but we most definitely should not have traded Tkachuk years ago.

His value is the highest its ever been and we need to cash in now. 

Years ago we wouldn't be talking about this type of return and next summer we lose him for nothing.

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

So from everything I have read and seen these seem to be the two most popular proposals, just curious which one everyone prefers.

 

NJ: Jesper Bratt, Alex Holtz, 2023 1st

STL: Jordan Kyrou, Jake Neighbors, 2023 1st

 

I think right now I like the NJ offer, Kyrou is probably the best player, but I think Holtz is better than Neighbors and the NJ 1st will be the better pick. The difference between Bratt and Kyrou on paper isn’t huge.

 

Don't get me wrong, NJ is a better pick and prospect (perhaps), but I'm not sure that Bratt is the best option for the #1 part of this deal.  The Kyrou deal isn't ideal either and STL has to make a big trade(s) to be able to sign him.  They could deal for a LTIR like Weber's and hold off signing until day 1.  Or trade Tank to LA or some place he agree to.

 

The longer this goes on (days that is), the more likely a GM is to blink.  I think you might see NJ go all in and give up something they didn't want to.  Only Hughes is not in play.  Being willing to give up the 2OA shows they value Tkachuk more than the future.  If Bratt is the main piece they are only willing to offer, then I think they might throw in Sharagovich.  It pushes them over STL.  It also clears cap they don't have to sign Tkachuk.    

[JTech780]

So I wonder what the situation is with Monahan. Is he playing next year, or is he a LTIR candidate?

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

So I wonder what the situation is with Monahan. Is he playing next year, or is he a LTIR candidate?

 

I was thinking that we should deal him with 1/2 salary retained.  Make him more attractive to a team needing a vet.  This might make up for having to pay to take him.  Or not.

 

I think he was shut down early enough to make it to camp not just coming off rehab like last year.  Ther is a decent chance that he could be a productive player.  But, the problem is we don't really have the spot for him with playmakers.  I would hate to use him with Lucic again.  Such a waste.

 

If his shot came back, perhaps a line of Pelletier-Monahan-Toffoli would work.  Really don't know until they get the Tkachuk situation ironed out.

[bosn111]

Both offers are good for the Flames but neither one works for the other team due to cap reasons.

 

St. Louis only has 625,000 in cap space, Kyrou gets 2,800,000 so that only gives them 3,425,000 cap space. Not enough for Tkachuk to sign 9,000,000 or more. They would need to move one of Schenn, Tarasenko, Faulk, Krug, Parayko, or O’Reilly (the first 5 have NTC), and replace them with a low cost option (league minimum for 3 D and Schenn, around 1.5 mil for Tarasenko or O’Reilly). I don’t see that happening any time soon. 
 

Jersey has cap space that could work if Tkachuk signs for 9 million, but they won’t have enough to sign 2 more forwards who they need, unless Bernier is out all season, but his 4 million doesn’t likely cover Wood and Boqvist. So there needs to be more as trading Bratt doesn’t help clear cap.

 

So to make it work with NJ, there needs to be more thought / pieces. A trade would likely need to include Tatar and / or Severson / Graves to make the cap work. The Flames would need to send back players to fill holes left for lesser cost. Dube is the only F who would save cap over Tatar, Valimaki or Mackey are they only 2 that might have value that save cap from Severson/Graves. TD suggested they might add Sharangovich, but his 2 mil would not cover Boqvist, Wood and his own replacement.

 

So I would think a trade with NJ would need to be more of:

 

Tkachuk + Dube + Valimaki 

 

for

 

Bratt + Tatar + Severson/Graves + Mercer/Holtz + Pick (round depends on who comes back).

 

Mercer and Holtz are same age and cap hit. I like that Mercer can play C while Holtz is a wing. Holtz has 1 extra year under contract. Severson and Graves are both 1 year contracts before UFA but both are Canadian. Severson is RD, Graves LD. Severson provides more cap space for NJ but is likely the better player. Tatar is UFA in a year, but is being taken primarily as a cap dump while remaining serviceable and filling a hole.

 

Bratt / Lindholm / Toffoli 

Mangiapane / Mercer / ??

Tatar / Backlund / Coleman

Lucic / Rooney / Lewis

??

 

Hanifin / Andersson 

Kylington / Tanev

Zadorov / Severson

Meloche

 

Leaves cap space for a top 6 RW (maybe Ruzicka?).

 

Still need to trade Monahan, but that is possible in a few ways.

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

Tkachuk + Dube + Valimaki 

 

for

 

Bratt + Tatar + Severson/Graves + Mercer/Holtz + Pick (round depends on who comes back).

 

Yikes, that's a pretty bad trade for us.  

Tatar (31) and Severson (27)  and Graves (27) are all pending UFA's.

And we pay the cost of Dube and Valimaki to get that crap?

Both are RFA's at the end of their current deals.

 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

So from everything I have read and seen these seem to be the two most popular proposals, just curious which one everyone prefers.

 

NJ: Jesper Bratt, Alex Holtz, 2023 1st

STL: Jordan Kyrou, Jake Neighbors, 2023 1st

 

I think right now I like the NJ offer, Kyrou is probably the best player, but I think Holtz is better than Neighbors and the NJ 1st will be the better pick. The difference between Bratt and Kyrou on paper isn’t huge.

 

I would agree, NJ is the better offer on talent and I think the Flames need to maximize talent here. Plus I still think you can make a case that NJ isn't a playoff team next year so there is more potential on the number 1 pick too. 

 

The only concern I have is what is Bratt gonna cost. I'm a little weary of him trying to cash in big after only 1 season. 

[The_People1]

I found this funny for some reason...

 

 

[MP5029]

Well I don’t see a NJD deal happening…I think Stl as it stands now has the best possible offer options, while I won’t discount NJD, NAS or a few other US teams out, I think STL will come out with the best deal that ends up happening.

 

I say this because hockey is a business and you look at the back lash in PHI right now over them not landing Gaudrea…Tachuck to Stl ties and the fan base this will motivate Stl to make a deal happen…now having said that, true Stl doesn’t need to make a move for Chucky, However making a move for Him is a Win, Win for Stl…selling seats and they bring in a very dynamic and unique player who’s still very young…if we were not talking about the Stl ties and how unique a player Chucky is well I agree Stl would not have a need or reason to but because of who he is I think Stl will make the move for him. Now if we were talking Gaudreau in this situation, I don’t Stl would bother, where as Phi would especially with now knowing the back lash from fans…anyway that’s why my best guess is Stl…

 

I don’t think the trade is gonna go quite as black and white as some of these Kyro proposals either…my guess is it’s gonna be a larger trade…something more

like this (not exact but close, there may be a minor asset from Cgy going, like Dube) 

 

To Stl 

Tachuck 

Monahan 

 

to Cgy

Thomas

Neigbours 

Terro

1st

 

[MP5029]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

I found this funny for some reason...

 

 

You did because it is funny!  

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

...

 

I don’t think the trade is gonna go quite as black and white as some of these Kyro proposals either…my guess is it’s gonna be a larger trade…something more

like this (not exact but close, there may be a minor asset from Cgy going, like Dube) 

 

To Stl 

Tachuck 

Monahan 

 

to Cgy

Thomas

Neigbours 

Terro

1st

 

 

Well, I do like that deal for us, but it's not great for STL.  We would flip Tank at the TDL just because he would be a pending UFA.  If he played really well for us, then sure sign him.  I don't know if it makes a lot of sense to have a post 30's player signed long term though.  And he would not be cheap to re-sign.

[The_People1]

30 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

Both offers are good for the Flames but neither one works for the other team due to cap reasons.

 

I think it's a case of letting STL and NJ deal with their cap problems on their own.  STL can move Tarasenko for picks and prospects to some other team later if they want. 

 

For NJ, it makes sense they send us Bratt because after getting Tkachuk, they have no room to sign him.  But if NJ were to give us Mercer instead of Bratt then I think it's a done deal.  Mercer + Holtz + 1st is such a win for the Flames, I would even throw in Kylington if it gets this deal done.

[travel_dude]

Just to be clear, I am not poo poo'ing offers just due to my opinion.  I look at the full trade from both sides.  As much as I want player X, I have to be realistic about it.  Top player plus top prospect plus a first is pretty reasonable for both sides.  The value of the first makes a big difference though.  A late one isn't much better than the Iggy trade pick.  A lesser top player is fine, but the ceiling needs to be closer to Tkachuk's ceiling.  He's just 24.  A decade of hockey left in him.  May not be HHOF material, but he will impact every game he plays in for some time. 

 

Kyrou and Bratt are both fine players in their own rights, but have not done what Tkachuk has done.  Whatever the prospect added is, that has to make up for any shortcomings.  And because we don't have to trade to any particular team.    

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

So from everything I have read and seen these seem to be the two most popular proposals, just curious which one everyone prefers.

 

NJ: Jesper Bratt, Alex Holtz, 2023 1st

STL: Jordan Kyrou, Jake Neighbors, 2023 1st

 

I think right now I like the NJ offer, Kyrou is probably the best player, but I think Holtz is better than Neighbors and the NJ 1st will be the better pick. The difference between Bratt and Kyrou on paper isn’t huge.

 

I am torn.   Of all he players listed there I like Holtz the most, I am surprised there are no defensemen,

 

The picks could be very similar, I expect NJ to move up the ranks and ST Louis to move down, notwithstanding whoever gets Tkachuk.

 

I guess if I had to pick, I'd pick NJ based on Holtz.

 

I would be pleased if we got this kind of return.  I still think we lose the trade but not as much as I thought we would.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think it's a case of letting STL and NJ deal with their cap problems on their own.  STL can move Tarasenko for picks and prospects to some other team later if they want. 

 

For NJ, it makes sense they send us Bratt because after getting Tkachuk, they have no room to sign him.  But if NJ were to give us Mercer instead of Bratt then I think it's a done deal.  Mercer + Holtz + 1st is such a win for the Flames, I would even throw in Kylington if it gets this deal done.

 

I would do Bratt + Mercer + Holtz + 1st.

Wouldn't even give STL the time of day because they seem to be hedging on Kyrou.

If need be, we can take Severson to help their cap.

[phoenix66]

21 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

I found this funny for some reason...

 

 

 

This was pretty good too

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 

This was pretty good too

 

 

 

 

I do hope we have some toughness left for the Tiddlywinks of Alberta matches this year.

Kane might end up back in SJ this summer and trade Kane somewhere.

Draisaitl is still the biggest p*ssy on that team.

 

Nobody left there to fight.

[MP5029]

27 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, I do like that deal for us, but it's not great for STL.  We would flip Tank at the TDL just because he would be a pending UFA.  If he played really well for us, then sure sign him.  I don't know if it makes a lot of sense to have a post 30's player signed long term though.  And he would not be cheap to re-sign.

I know, hence i mentioned Dube maybe going in to make it work for an on ice product for Stl 

 

Tero is a cap dump, with the advantages you mentioned, though there is some risk for Cgy taking Tero on…return could be low, injury issues again but also he could still be health and be a beast, short term on ice production and a possible trade chip or maybe a re-sign pending on how it all shakes out.

 

Thomas is the prize on ice pice, even moving Tero, it’s not enough to offset Tachuck’s QO let alone what he would

command as a FA in one year, this would be the window for Stl to do this…or any team for that matter, could probably land him at 9.5 vs next year he’s probably gonna be at 10m, especially if he plays here till the TDL, I think he puts up strong numbers…equals to or better than last years, I think the line success came largely from Lindholm, if Tachuck is not traded before season start he’s probably gonna be on a line with Lindholm and Manji for 2 reasons, driving up the trade value for both Tachuck and Manji if they are on a 1 year deal and that’s a line that is gonna be pretty close to the Gaudreau line because of Lindholm.  Anyway Kyro is more affordable to keep after Thomas’s big raise kicks in…added to the fact not many teams with $ to fit Tero in would be in a position of needing or being able to fit him into the line up..2 things pretty much only Cgy can accommodate.

 

Monahan is an obvious reason, Stl will need a Ctr, he’s in need of a change and also he’s been productive in the past…it has a bit of risk that Monahan is an expensive 3rd line Ctr but  huge up

side where he could be a solid 2nd if not 1st line Ctr again for them…the reason this risk is good for them is Monahan only has 2 years on this contract and Tachuck is the price.

 

this trade would make

far more sense for both teams in terms of

risk management, cap management and just over all fit and reward for the teams.

 

edit…insert Tank for where I said Tero 

[bosn111]

Both Severson and Graves are good D. They are both Canadian. At 27 either one fits in well with the D and makes our D better. They can both be re-signed fairly easily (no refusal to sign to go to USA). They are from Manitoba and Nova Scotia respectively. 
 

Valimaki might eventually step up and show his full talent, but right now he hasn’t proven he can really do much in the NHL. Maybe the injuries caused problems, but Mackey outplayed him in Stockton. Based on stats, Valimaki was little better than DeSimone.

 

If we are honest with ourselves as fans, Valimaki has little trade value now and is a risk for any team. Maybe NJ would like him more as they have another Finnish prospect in Heino. 
 

Dube is a good but streaky and isn’t doing much more than bottom 6 energy. I like him, but in the NHL, he is not considered a high value player. May have more success elsewhere, but here, he is what he is. He is not a player that is really pushing the team forward. Be honest with yourself when considering what return the Flames could actually get for Dube.

 

Saying let other teams figure out their cap situation themselves in separate trades is great for fans, and great for the Flames, but that is not being realistic. A trade is more likely if you can factor in all aspects and have it balanced for both teams.

 

Severson and Graves both carry significantly more value than Valimaki. Dube being younger and RFA has more value than Tatar, balanced by the D swap. Valimaki being RFA is only a bonus if he can actually step up.

 

So basically my suggestion is

 

Tkachuk for Bratt + Mercer + Pick

Valimaki  + Dube for Severson + Tatar for cap purposes. Maybe you can get an extra pick here for the cap space, but likely mid round at best.

 

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Tero is a cap dump, with the advantages you mentioned, though there is some risk for Cgy taking Tero on…return could be low, injury issues again but also he could still be health and be a beast, short term on ice production and a possible trade chip or maybe a re-sign pending on how it all shakes out.

 

As much as a cap dump Tank seems to be, he's a big prize in a trade.  

They can move him as a lateral move and recoup assets for him.

Or they can trade Krug.

Both are better than dumping him in a Thomas trade.

 

But I digress.  If Thomas is truly on the table, then forgo the 1st and get a 2nd prospect.

Or take Krug with him and take a 2nd.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

Tkachuk for Bratt + Mercer + Pick

Valimaki  + Dube for Severson + Tatar for cap purposes. Maybe you can get an extra pick here for the cap space, but likely mid round at best.

 

Again, we are helping their cap situation and giving them two NHL players to do it.

Not worth it.

Trades like this for cap get a 1st back.

 

If you like...

Tkachuk + Valimaki

for

Bratt + Mercer + Severson + Tatar + Holtz + 1st

 

[conundrumed]

Why does Tara keep appearing as a cap dump? Am I missing something?

$7.5mil for 34/48/82pts in 75 games. That's not a cap dump, that's a bargain. Yet pretend Monahan isn't a cap dump?

I think we're setting ourselves up to be disappointed on the return. Not often a player wanting to leave is a favourable situation on return.

[The_People1]

3 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Why does Tara keep appearing as a cap dump? Am I missing something?

$7.5mil for 34/48/82pts in 75 games. That's not a cap dump, that's a bargain. Yet pretend Monahan isn't a cap dump?

I think we're setting ourselves up to be disappointed on the return. Not often a player wanting to leave is a favourable situation on return.

 

I want at minimum, a 2nd line Center and a 1st round pick.  I think that's pretty reasonable minimum expectations.  Mercer + 1st.

[conundrumed]

Time for avatar changes.lol