2022 Offseason

[The_People1]

19 minutes ago, sak22 said:

One thing I'd like to put out, I think if we put Tkachuk's future with the team contingent on Johnny's resigning it would be a bad look for the organization especially if Tkachuk has interest in being here longer term.  Even if you get the #2, how do you sell that person on being a Flame for 10 years if you just traded your most recent successful top pick to get him.  I'm not against moving Tkachuk, but I'd wait it out and try coming to terms.  I know the argument is that he is a 70 point player without Johnny, but Johnny was also trending to only being a 70 point player until he played with Tkachuk.

 

We shouldn't worry about that.  No player is safe from being traded.  No team is safe from their player leaving via UFA.  It's all fair game.  We don't want country club mentality.

[redfire11]

I think the Gaudreau negotiations are done and will play out in a 2 part deal. 

I think the hold up is the negotiations with Tkachuk.

gaudreau is going to New Jersey as I think Tkachuk is. NJD's will overpay in a trade for Tkachuk (including Gaudreau) and will pay the Flames offer to Gaudreau. Everyone saves face including BT. As I said I think Tkachuk and Family are working out a contract that NJ is willing to pay.

[MP5029]

8 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

And that's my main point .. I don't think it's $$, or there's be a counter by now ..

 I believe he's weighing location vs loyalty.. to choose a place closer to home  I could never fault him for ..really in the end he owes us nothing..  but too much in the form of direction hinges on that decision .. we deserve some form of answer ..and ya I think the draft is a reasonable expectation..it's been a month 

Exactly! 

[travel_dude]

11 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Do u seriously believe he's getting $12m from any team he'd play for ?  $10.2 is more than Panarin ..at some point is a spot where it's $1 too much .. so ya , $10.5 is a no from me 

Panarin got 11.6M from NY.

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

Panarin got 11.6M from NY.

Yes.. x7. That same deal over 8 is 10.15M 

10.5 wouid need a team to give him $12M

I'd think think Panarin is the best comparable either side can use 

 

 

There are some teams who could and would throw stupid money at him..like Seattle .. but I have to think again it's fit and location for him..I don't see that even being considered ..  Philly would need to clear cap to afford him which would likely set them back at least a couple years .. home is nice but I feel he wants to win too .

He's the franchise face right now .. in a ready to win and keep winning situation..

Plays on arguably the best line in hockey 

His jersey goes on the rafters at the end of it and good chance at hall of Fame too.. 

[travel_dude]

35 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Yes.. x7. That same deal over 8 is 10.15M 

10.5 wouid need a team to give him $12M

I'd think think Panarin is the best comparable either side can use 

 

 

There are some teams who could and would throw stupid money at him..like Seattle .. but I have to think again it's fit and location for him..I don't see that even being considered ..  Philly would need to clear cap to afford him which would likely set them back at least a couple years .. home is nice but I feel he wants to win too .

He's the franchise face right now .. in a ready to win and keep winning situation..

Plays on arguably the best line in hockey 

His jersey goes on the rafters at the end of it and good chance at hall of Fame too.. 

 

Panarin was signed several years ago, so there's that.

From the reports (unconfirmed), he's been offered $9.5M.

If true, that's undervaluing what he is worth to the team.

If true, I get where BT is coming from; offer based on what else needs to be done.

As a starting point sure.

But, if you aren't willing to go to $10.5M over 8 years, then something is wrong.

It doesn't matter what that works out to with other teams over 7.

If he gets to FA, he's decided that the 8th year is not that important.

And that could be because it's worth half of his best year, just to drive down the AAV.

Or BT just went in with 9.5M every year.

 

Think about it this way, the 8th year has a cap way higher than it is today.

Why lock something in today for a year where you might get $10M even as a lesser player.

He won't be Joe Thorton old, more like Pavelski age.

Joe didn't sign as a discount when he turned 35.

 

[cross16]

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Panarin was signed several years ago, so there's that.

From the reports (unconfirmed), he's been offered $9.5M.

If true, that's undervaluing what he is worth to the team.

If true, I get where BT is coming from; offer based on what else needs to be done.

As a starting point sure.

But, if you aren't willing to go to $10.5M over 8 years, then something is wrong.

It doesn't matter what that works out to with other teams over 7.

If he gets to FA, he's decided that the 8th year is not that important.

And that could be because it's worth half of his best year, just to drive down the AAV.

Or BT just went in with 9.5M every year.

 

Think about it this way, the 8th year has a cap way higher than it is today.

Why lock something in today for a year where you might get $10M even as a lesser player.

He won't be Joe Thorton old, more like Pavelski age.

Joe didn't sign as a discount when he turned 35.

 

 

 

I don't think that is fair. Keep in mind the 9.5 is over 8 years for 76 million. A 7 year offer, like Panarins would come out to 10.85 which is only 800K less than what Panarin makes. Also worth pointing out Pananrin was a year younger than Gaudreau when he signed so an 8 year deal for Gaudreau should come with a lower salary at the end of it. 

 

it's a very fair offer that is very similar to what Panarin makes and personally I will be very surprised if another team offers him more $ to be honest. 

[phoenix66]

51 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Panarin was signed several years ago, so there's that.

From the reports (unconfirmed), he's been offered $9.5M.

If true, that's undervaluing what he is worth to the team.

If true, I get where BT is coming from; offer based on what else needs to be done.

As a starting point sure.

But, if you aren't willing to go to $10.5M over 8 years, then something is wrong.

It doesn't matter what that works out to with other teams over 7.

If he gets to FA, he's decided that the 8th year is not that important.

And that could be because it's worth half of his best year, just to drive down the AAV.

Or BT just went in with 9.5M every year.

 

Think about it this way, the 8th year has a cap way higher than it is today.

Why lock something in today for a year where you might get $10M even as a lesser player.

He won't be Joe Thorton old, more like Pavelski age.

Joe didn't sign as a discount when he turned 35.

 

Again this is assuming it's about $$.. I firmly believe if he hits Ufa he's gone ..not necessarily because he's already decided that but the flames have to pivot .. we can't sit and watch players like Kadri, nicushkin and others fall off the board without an attempt simply because Johnny is making up his mind . .. it's an ultra fair deal..that also allows us to keep talent at other places .

I would not be surprised if Johnny does sign for that if Tkachuk gets the same deal soon after .. keeping both under 20 would be huge 

 

We've seen what a one star team can do.. it's not pretty. 

 

A couple other things intrigue me ...  Sutters end of the year presser where he stated the next step is to be a consistent playoff team.. we may have a window , but it's more important to be consistently in..that means depth..that means young players making the jump .. aside from this year there always it seems to be a Cinderella team that makes it to the end ..anything can happen .. but being there consistently is the big step..

We don't need Johnny for that to happen.. his money we don't pay him can fill some holes to make that happen while others get up to speed ..the Ruzickas, the Phillips, the Wolfs , the Pelletiers and the Valamakis 

 

Not saying they're equal but Mangiapane on that top line wouid not look out of place 

 

Sutter has one year left.. he may re-up but this also may be his last year before he steps up onto some other role like an advisor ..kind of ironic Barry Trotz stepped away "for now " . Not implying tampering of any kind other than he wouid be the perfect one to take over and continue what Sutter has started 

 

On the debrincat side .shouid we decide to enter that conversation... Chicago has no goalies .. none .. not even top prospects.. somebody like a ready to start Vladar could be a very enticing piece to put in the conversation to them 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

 

I don't think that is fair. Keep in mind the 9.5 is over 8 years for 76 million. A 7 year offer, like Panarins would come out to 10.85 which is only 800K less than what Panarin makes. Also worth pointing out Pananrin was a year younger than Gaudreau when he signed so an 8 year deal for Gaudreau should come with a lower salary at the end of it. 

 

it's a very fair offer that is very similar to what Panarin makes and personally I will be very surprised if another team offers him more $ to be honest. 

I know what it mean.  Keep in mind that was also signed 3 years ago.  

Gaudreau is also coming off a deal where he was making $6.75M.

So, while it's a great offer, he took a lesser deal for longer than Panarin did.

9.5m is 2.75M more for his last chance at huge money.

[The_People1]

55 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Again this is assuming it's about $$.. I firmly believe if he hits Ufa he's gone ..not necessarily because he's already decided that but the flames have to pivot .. we can't sit and watch players like Kadri, nicushkin and others fall off the board without an attempt simply because Johnny is making up his mind . .. it's an ultra fair deal..that also allows us to keep talent at other places .

I would not be surprised if Johnny does sign for that if Tkachuk gets the same deal soon after .. keeping both under 20 would be huge 

 

We've seen what a one star team can do.. it's not pretty. 

 

A couple other things intrigue me ...  Sutters end of the year presser where he stated the next step is to be a consistent playoff team.. we may have a window , but it's more important to be consistently in..that means depth..that means young players making the jump .. aside from this year there always it seems to be a Cinderella team that makes it to the end ..anything can happen .. but being there consistently is the big step..

We don't need Johnny for that to happen.. his money we don't pay him can fill some holes to make that happen while others get up to speed ..the Ruzickas, the Phillips, the Wolfs , the Pelletiers and the Valamakis 

 

Not saying they're equal but Mangiapane on that top line wouid not look out of place 

 

Sutter has one year left.. he may re-up but this also may be his last year before he steps up onto some other role like an advisor ..kind of ironic Barry Trotz stepped away "for now " . Not implying tampering of any kind other than he wouid be the perfect one to take over and continue what Sutter has started 

 

On the debrincat side .shouid we decide to enter that conversation... Chicago has no goalies .. none .. not even top prospects.. somebody like a ready to start Vladar could be a very enticing piece to put in the conversation to them 

 

Yes we do need Johnny.

 

No UFA is coming here if Gaudreau leaves.  No way we should pay Kadri $9.5-mil to play here and hope he can replace Gaudreau's 100-points.  Mangiapane is not Gaudreau's level.  We are graduating the kids to the main team regardless.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

 ..  Philly would need to clear cap to afford him which would likely set them back at least a couple years .. home is nice but I feel he wants to win too .

 

I'm hoping BT can pull something off like,

 

To PHI,

Gaudreau

Kylington 

2nd round pick

 

To CGY,

Van Reimsdyk (cap dump essentially)

5th OA (draft one of Nemec or Jiricek)

[cross16]

37 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

I know what it mean.  Keep in mind that was also signed 3 years ago.  

Gaudreau is also coming off a deal where he was making $6.75M.

So, while it's a great offer, he took a lesser deal for longer than Panarin did.

9.5m is 2.75M more for his last chance at huge money.

 

Well keep in mind the salary cap is basically the same level today that it was when Panarin signed that deal and that also wasn't a flat cap environment. There was more money to be thrown around. 

 

Why is the AAV more important than the total dollars? As it stand right now the Flames offer pays him 5.5 million less than the Panarin deal and i'd be shocked if the Flames wouldn't add 500k or so a year to make it basically the same offer. 

 

if Johnny wants to beat the Panarin deal than all the power to him because I don't think he is getting it.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Well keep in mind the salary cap is basically the same level today that it was when Panarin signed that deal and that also wasn't a flat cap environment. There was more money to be thrown around. 

 

Why is the AAV more important than the total dollars? As it stand right now the Flames offer pays him 5.5 million less than the Panarin deal and i'd be shocked if the Flames wouldn't add 500k or so a year to make it basically the same offer. 

 

if Johnny wants to beat the Panarin deal than all the power to him because I don't think he is getting it.

 

I could be wrong, but wasn't it 80.5 back then?

Even if it wasn't, things have changed.

We know that in about 3 or 4 years the cap will jump by more than usual.

In that year, his % of cap will drop.

 

I don't know one way or the other if the money part is the reason for the delay. 

What I do know is last time, he settled.  If this was their final offer, then fine.

If it's a starting offer, then find out what they feel about it.

9.5 is fair but seems low.

10 is fair.

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Well keep in mind the salary cap is basically the same level today that it was when Panarin signed that deal and that also wasn't a flat cap environment. There was more money to be thrown around. 

 

Why is the AAV more important than the total dollars? As it stand right now the Flames offer pays him 5.5 million less than the Panarin deal and i'd be shocked if the Flames wouldn't add 500k or so a year to make it basically the same offer. 

 

if Johnny wants to beat the Panarin deal than all the power to him because I don't think he is getting it.

 

Why not?  Panarin never hit Gaudreau's numbers.

[The_People1]

Should we be interested in Colin White?  A year ago, some of us suggested we trade Monahan for White to get away from Monahan... now White can be had via UFA.  RHS Center.

 

 

[The_People1]

Since Gaudreau's camp is not talking... presumably wanting to see what PHI, NJ, NYI, NYR, etc can offer... should give Gaudreau permission to look elsewhere at ahead of July 13?  (his agent may or may not have already been doing that but make it official).  This way, Gaudreau gets to see what's out there so if he doesn't like it, he can immediately turn around and sign the Flames offer... or make a counter offer.  At least we will know the answer sooner.

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

Should we be interested in Colin White?  A year ago, some of us suggested we trade Monahan for White to get away from Monahan... now White can be had via UFA.  RHS Center.

 

 

 

His numbers suggest that he's about as good as Jarnkrok.

He's coming off a fairly big contract for that amount of offense.

The age is right, but his best season (71 games) he scored 14 goals.

Are you thinking to pay him close to what Mangiapane will get?

[travel_dude]

23 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

Since Gaudreau's camp is not talking... presumably wanting to see what PHI, NJ, NYI, NYR, etc can offer... should give Gaudreau permission to look elsewhere at ahead of July 13?  (his agent may or may not have already been doing that but make it official).  This way, Gaudreau gets to see what's out there so if he doesn't like it, he can immediately turn around and sign the Flames offer... or make a counter offer.  At least we will know the answer sooner.

 

There is some speculation that BT will ask the agent to provide some kind of response this week.

There is some risk to letting other teams talk to him.

Might work or backfire.

Does that send a message that we are giving up and will trade his rights?

[robrob74]

19 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I could only wish we could be the Senators as they tanked hard.  We will be worse.  Be like the Predators, Blue Jackets, Flyers, etc.  Just a middling team that's makes the playoffs one year and misses the next and never go far in the playoffs when they get there.  Never bad enough to draft the best players.

or The Wild…. 

[robrob74]

19 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

So you're saying Johnny walks and we get a Forsberg as just an example ..and we're suddenly at risk of missing the playoffs ? 

Look up north..they have 2 of the best players in the league and how many years have they sucked ?  One player does not make your team..  I want him on the team..and he's earned the right to get paid .. but we can find other ways to fill the holes if we have to 

so you’re basically saying we are going to be like Buffalo or Edmonton because we tank or suck a few years? You have that much faith in our drafting? That is why they’ve sucked for so long is that outside of drafting in the first round they’ve not filled roles through the draft. So we will be them for sure? 
 

i think anyone making the arguments that we could be them is basically saying the drafting outside the first round sucks.

[phoenix66]

51 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

so you’re basically saying we are going to be like Buffalo or Edmonton because we tank or suck a few years? You have that much faith in our drafting? That is why they’ve sucked for so long is that outside of drafting in the first round they’ve not filled roles through the draft. So we will be them for sure? 
 

i think anyone making the arguments that we could be them is basically saying the drafting outside the first round sucks.

No I'm saying we're not going from a division champion to a bottom 5 team because we lose one player 

[robrob74]

Just now, phoenix66 said:

No I'm saying we're not going from a division champion to a bottom 5 team because we lose one player 

 

i don’t really know what to expect. The lady time we won the division, teams were ready to play the Flames every night and we missed. We will try and make it tough on teams of course, but if other teams make it harder for the flames, might mean they’re losing a lot more, probably 1 goal games. 

[The_People1]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

No I'm saying we're not going from a division champion to a bottom 5 team because we lose one player 

 

Agreed.  That's why we need to lose 2.  Gaudreau and Tkachuk.  Get the 2OA + 5OA... And next year we could be looking at a 5th to 10th OA.

[sak22]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

Agreed.  That's why we need to lose 2.  Gaudreau and Tkachuk.  Get the 2OA + 5OA... And next year we could be looking at a 5th to 10th OA.

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, sak22 said:

 

I know. I'm dreaming.  Just want to somehow do an accelerated retool.