2022 Offseason

[Thebrewcrew]

I do not believe that the Flames would consider a re-tool/build,

 

But if they did, they have some very attractive assets. The Flames could get some nice pieces.

 

Mangiapane coming off a career year, could get you a 1st+.

There'd be a lot of interest in Tkachuk.

The biggest piece would be Lindholm. #1C for less than 5m with 2yrs of term.

At the TDL prices on D are crazy. Two playoff runs of Hanifin could fetch a really good return.

In 23/24, Backlund and Tanev would have 1yr left. There would be contenders interested at that deadline.

 

I think this could be different than the 2013 rebuild in a couple of ways

- The Flames have a much better roster. In 2013, Kipper wanted to stay, Iggy was cup-chasing and Bouwmeester finally looked like the D the Flames originally traded for. The returns with PIT and STL were a disaster. BT has done a much better job selling off roster pieces, Rittich/Russell/Glencross even the Bennett deal worked out. 

 

-The Flames have drafted significantly better under BT than the prior regime. The 2013 rebuild was really hurt by the way that draft played out. They had three 1st's and only got Monahan out of 8 picks. 

 

 

Again, I do not believe the Flames will even consider this. If they did though, they could be setup to acquire some premium assets and I believe it could be a fairly quick turnaround. 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I do not believe that the Flames would consider a re-tool/build,

 

But if they did, they have some very attractive assets. The Flames could get some nice pieces.

 

Mangiapane coming off a career year, could get you a 1st+.

There'd be a lot of interest in Tkachuk.

The biggest piece would be Lindholm. #1C for less than 5m with 2yrs of term.

At the TDL prices on D are crazy. Two playoff runs of Hanifin could fetch a really good return.

In 23/24, Backlund and Tanev would have 1yr left. There would be contenders interested at that deadline.

 

I think this could be different than the 2013 rebuild in a couple of ways

- The Flames have a much better roster. In 2013, Kipper wanted to stay, Iggy was cup-chasing and Bouwmeester finally looked like the D the Flames originally traded for. The returns with PIT and STL were a disaster. BT has done a much better job selling off roster pieces, Rittich/Russell/Glencross even the Bennett deal worked out. 

 

-The Flames have drafted significantly better under BT than the prior regime. The 2013 rebuild was really hurt by the way that draft played out. They had three 1st's and only got Monahan out of 8 picks. 

 

 

Again, I do not believe the Flames will even consider this. If they did though, they could be setup to acquire some premium assets and I believe it could be a fairly quick turnaround. 

 

Any rebuild would need to get rid of any player over 30.

Makes no sense to keep Markstrom.

By the time we are ready to compete again, he would be close to the end.

Vladar and Wolf would be the guys you go with, maybe waiting one year to bring in Wolf.

Maybe longer, since you don't want to put him behind crap.

Make no mistake, a rebuild would be a lot of crap.

 

But, I also look at the middle age players and younger.

Lindholm, Mangiapane, Tkachuk, Dube, Kylington, Hanifin, Ras, Valimaki.

Our best trade chips and the players that can span the rebuild.

The first 3 are almost unreplaceable.

2 or more D would be at their prime.

 

While we have a better group of 30+ players than we did in 2013, they will be trending down by the time we are relevant again.  So, really no better off.

[The_People1]

6 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I do not believe that the Flames would consider a re-tool/build,

 

But if they did, they have some very attractive assets. The Flames could get some nice pieces.

 

Mangiapane coming off a career year, could get you a 1st+.

There'd be a lot of interest in Tkachuk.

The biggest piece would be Lindholm. #1C for less than 5m with 2yrs of term.

At the TDL prices on D are crazy. Two playoff runs of Hanifin could fetch a really good return.

In 23/24, Backlund and Tanev would have 1yr left. There would be contenders interested at that deadline.

 

I think this could be different than the 2013 rebuild in a couple of ways

- The Flames have a much better roster. In 2013, Kipper wanted to stay, Iggy was cup-chasing and Bouwmeester finally looked like the D the Flames originally traded for. The returns with PIT and STL were a disaster. BT has done a much better job selling off roster pieces, Rittich/Russell/Glencross even the Bennett deal worked out. 

 

-The Flames have drafted significantly better under BT than the prior regime. The 2013 rebuild was really hurt by the way that draft played out. They had three 1st's and only got Monahan out of 8 picks. 

 

 

Again, I do not believe the Flames will even consider this. If they did though, they could be setup to acquire some premium assets and I believe it could be a fairly quick turnaround. 

 

Right on man.  We know the Flames won't rebuild but it's worth the discussion because Gaudreau is our MVP superstar and losing him, well, the right thing to do is to rebuild (aka tank a few years for new high end talent).

[robrob74]

45 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Right on man.  We know the Flames won't rebuild but it's worth the discussion because Gaudreau is our MVP superstar and losing him, well, the right thing to do is to rebuild (aka tank a few years for new high end talent).

i tend to feel we are the Canadian version of the Wild. Always a few pieces short to actually contend and always good enough to hover in a playoff area in the standings. 

[conundrumed]

Well now that's over hopefully news will start happening. We've got a lot of fish to fry in the next 2 weeks.

I'll be a little nervous July 7th heading into the draft with unanswered questions.

Could be a looong offseason. Or maybe things will be okay!?!

[Thebrewcrew]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Well now that's over hopefully news will start happening. We've got a lot of fish to fry in the next 2 weeks.

I'll be a little nervous July 7th heading into the draft with unanswered questions.

Could be a looong offseason. Or maybe things will be okay!?!

Craziest offseason in a while.

 

Things for the Flames could go a lot of different ways.

[conundrumed]

23 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Craziest offseason in a while.

 

Things for the Flames could go a lot of different ways.

I kinda wonder as we all ruminate on loong deals if shorter deals may be available. I know they come at greater cost, but we sure could have used another year for cap mgmt.

Plus, I think there's some "prove it" left after many career years.

Mangiapane is my first concern. 35 goals yet long stretches of being invisible. Stats darling, sure, but that doesn't move me much.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I kinda wonder as we all ruminate on loong deals if shorter deals may be available. I know they come at greater cost, but we sure could have used another year for cap mgmt.

Plus, I think there's some "prove it" left after many career years.

Mangiapane is my first concern. 35 goals yet long stretches of being invisible. Stats darling, sure, but that doesn't move me much.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, but an extra year for Tkachuk and Gaudreau really would have helped.  Extreme examples of shorter deals.  They ended up bumping into each other.  With Magpie, we have to make sure he doesn't bump into a future pending UFA.  Baclund, Lindy and Toffee all expire after 2 years, so Magpie has to span that.  3 years at least.  

 

Gaudreau, you wonder if he wants anything less than 6 years.  Sure he might make more over the first 5, but then he's getting older and may not be worth as much.  8 years allows us to pay him more now, and his actual salary at year 6 might allow a trade easier, should he want a trade.

 

Tkachuk is so young, it's hard to envision a shorter term deal making sense.  Just my take on it.

 

I was a little worried about some players that went MIA during the season, but some of it was poor line planning.  Keep Mange away from Toffee, but with Coleman.  Find the right C and LW to play with Toffee.  

[cross16]

The problem though with the idea of the strip it down rebuild is it relies completely on snagging an elite player at the top of the draft and IMO that needs to be a center. So you need to get yourself a Wright, Bedard, Michkov, maybe a Fantilli, but if you don't the odds are VERY likely you wind up in the same boat. They've already missed the chance for Wright (which i'm not upset by it's just reality though you aren't getting the number 1 pick) so you are either loading up for the 2023 draft and relying on luck, or your waiting for probably a 2-3 year bottoming out process in order to hopefully get that center. Coming off a 100 pt season that's an awfully tough plan to sell to your fan base. 

 

I get the argument of going this way without Gaudreau but I also think the Flames are late to the party on it. It be really hard for them to take this team and put themselves into the lottery mix for 2023 so you really are banking on a lot of luck. 

 

I don't love the idea of the Flames doing what they can to scrape together a playoff team either but the rebuild route comes with its fair share of pain too and the reward is far from guaranteed. 

[The_People1]

12 minutes ago, cross16 said:

The problem though with the idea of the strip it down rebuild is it relies completely on snagging an elite player at the top of the draft and IMO that needs to be a center. So you need to get yourself a Wright, Bedard, Michkov, maybe a Fantilli, but if you don't the odds are VERY likely you wind up in the same boat. They've already missed the chance for Wright (which i'm not upset by it's just reality though you aren't getting the number 1 pick) so you are either loading up for the 2023 draft and relying on luck, or your waiting for probably a 2-3 bottoming out process in order to hopefully get that center. Coming off a 100 pt season that's an awfully tough plan to sell to your fan base. 

 

I get the argument of going this way without Gaudreau but I also think the Flames are late to the party on it. It be really hard for them to take this team and put themselves into the lottery mix for 2023 so you really are banking on a lot of luck. 

 

I don't love the idea of the Flames doing what they can to scrape together a playoff team either but the rebuild route comes with its fair share of pain too and the reward is far from guaranteed. 

 

Depends.  MTL lost their two MVPs after a run to the Finals and finished last place.  If the Flames lose Gaudreau and pivot to trading Tkachuk, then I think that's a lot closer than you think.

[sak22]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

Depends.  MTL lost their two MVPs after a run to the Finals and finished last place.  If the Flames lose Gaudreau and pivot to trading Tkachuk, then I think that's a lot closer than you think.

Montreal went from playing in a division that really only had one elite team, to one that had 3 with another really strong team, but I don't think Gaudreau carried the Flames as much as you credit him for as opposed to Price for Montreal, Montreal was a playoff team despite a -9 goal differential the true definition of a Cinderella team the Flames had the 2nd best differential in the league with multiple award finalists that weren't Gaudreau, in fact I would say it was Markstrom and Lindholm that probably hurt Gaudreau's case for the Hart in some voters eyes.

[cross16]

15 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Depends.  MTL lost their two MVPs after a run to the Finals and finished last place.  If the Flames lose Gaudreau and pivot to trading Tkachuk, then I think that's a lot closer than you think.

 

Habs were 24-21 before they got hot in the playoffs. 71 points the year before (in 71 games), 96 the year before and then 71 before that. They were not a very good team and not trending well as that shows. Even they year they had 96 points they were carried by Price and Domi. They got hot at the right time, Price found his game but their "fall from cup finals to 1st overall pick isn't that far. 

 

I'm not saying the Flames can't do it but it's going to take a gutting of their team. Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Mang, Lindholm, Markstrom and 1 of Hanifin/Tanev all have to go. 

[The_People1]

12 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Montreal went from playing in a division that really only had one elite team, to one that had 3 with another really strong team, but I don't think Gaudreau carried the Flames as much as you credit him for as opposed to Price for Montreal, Montreal was a playoff team despite a -9 goal differential the true definition of a Cinderella team the Flames had the 2nd best differential in the league with multiple award finalists that weren't Gaudreau, in fact I would say it was Markstrom and Lindholm that probably hurt Gaudreau's case for the Hart in some voters eyes.

 

10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Habs were 24-21 before they got hot in the playoffs. 71 points the year before (in 71 games), 96 the year before and then 71 before that. They were not a very good team and not trending well as that shows. Even they year they had 96 points they were carried by Price and Domi. They got hot at the right time, Price found his game but their "fall from cup finals to 1st overall pick isn't that far. 

 

I'm not saying the Flames can't do it but it's going to take a gutting of their team. Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Mang, Lindholm, Markstrom and 1 of Hanifin/Tanev all have to go. 

 

No just look at the team Sutter inherited and did nothing with for his first half season.  Losing Gaudreau puts us back to that level.  If you give Sutter nothing much to work with then he can only do so much.

 

Moreover, Zadorov and Gudbranson may leave as well and they were a huge part of Sutter's system.

 

I get the whole "there will be money to spend if these guys leave" but it's doubtful we attract UFAs if Gaudreau leaves and it appears we are going to take a huge step backwards as a result.

[travel_dude]

49 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I get the argument of going this way without Gaudreau but I also think the Flames are late to the party on it. It be really hard for them to take this team and put themselves into the lottery mix for 2023 so you really are banking on a lot of luck. 

 

I don't love the idea of the Flames doing what they can to scrape together a playoff team either but the rebuild route comes with its fair share of pain too and the reward is far from guaranteed. 

 

The team was signaling that they were building for the future, not getting ready to strip it down.  They had to have some belief that Gaudreau wasn't going anywhere or it makes zero sense to keep him and lose him for nothing.  You also don't start trading away future pics to do this.

 

The cards played out the way they wanted, short of going on a longer cup run.  They became the team they were looking to build.  Lost a key asset in Monahan along the way, meaning that they expected him to still be a #2C.  Everything else played out the way they wanted.  So, I have to believe that they expect to sign Gaudreau and Tkachuk.  The other pieces are either trade assets or get re-signed.  Build on the strengths.   

[The_People1]

19 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I'm not saying the Flames can't do it but it's going to take a gutting of their team. Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Mang, Lindholm, Markstrom and 1 of Hanifin/Tanev all have to go. 

 

I would argue it's a good time to gut the team since we have valuable assets to use.  If we wait until we are too old and have nothing, then a rebuild is going to take 11 years.

 

There are decent pieces in the farm that could be ready soon but they need some bluechippers to round it out.

[MP5029]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

No just look at the team Sutter inherited and did nothing with for his first half season.  Losing Gaudreau puts us back to that level.  If you give Sutter nothing much to work with then he can only do so much.

 

Moreover, Zadorov and Gudbranson may leave as well and they were a huge part of Sutter's system.

 

I get the whole "there will be money to spend if these guys leave" but it's doubtful we attract UFAs if Gaudreau leaves and it appears we are going to take a huge step backwards as a result.

I

Wouldn’t put much emphasis on that first 1/2 season, it’s been made very public by the team and more so Sutter himself, that he was observing and taking notes for the next full season.

 

as far as Gaudreau goes, like Tachuck, he benefited from playing with Lindholm…I don’t think it was just one of those three alone, it was the chemistry they had together. 

while the loss of gaudreau will hurt, especially if for no return, he’s not irreplaceable…he’s no Iggy or Kipper, basically franchise players…though I’d say he and Tachuck are starting to flirt with superstar status…they are doing so because of Sutter and the chemistry between the three…let’s not

forget Gaudreau, Tachuck and Lindholm have all been tried in other combos and alone they have not come

close to this season…It’s clearly the chemistry they have together.

 

outside of cap

savings there is no advantage to

loosing Gaudreau especially for 0 return…however, there are options…as a matter of

fact in some ways the cap savings could help A lot if we could land

say forsberg say at 7-8 would

pr do it, move Manji up

to the 1st line you have a solid 1-2 line right there..

 

Manji/Lindholm/Tachuck 

Forsberg (or sim UFA)/Monahan/Toffoil 

Coleman/Backlund/Dube 

(or move out Backlund to save more and replace with either a cheaper UFA or AHL promotion)

 

Lucic/ ???UFA or AHL promotion/???
 

my point here is the foundation is not bad, and win/loose or draw there are some

really good options to

replace Gaudreau and still have a solid playoff roster…maybe even better balanced? 

 

[cross16]

18 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

No just look at the team Sutter inherited and did nothing with for his first half season.  Losing Gaudreau puts us back to that level.  If you give Sutter nothing much to work with then he can only do so much.

 

Moreover, Zadorov and Gudbranson may leave as well and they were a huge part of Sutter's system.

 

I get the whole "there will be money to spend if these guys leave" but it's doubtful we attract UFAs if Gaudreau leaves and it appears we are going to take a huge step backwards as a result.

 

Well that is my point, that team was the 12th worst in the league and were a break away from making the playoffs. It's still a ways down to the lottery area. 

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would argue it's a good time to gut the team since we have valuable assets to use.  If we wait until we are too old and have nothing, then a rebuild is going to take 11 years.

 

There are decent pieces in the farm that could be ready soon but they need some bluechippers to round it out.

 

I'm not really arguing that it is or it not a good time to rebuild. I'm just arguing it's more challenging than just letting Gaudreau walk and moving Tkachuk.

 

And pointing out that still lots needs to happen for the Flames to be able to use the rebuild to actually improve their current situation. 

[MP5029]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would argue it's a good time to gut the team since we have valuable assets to use.  If we wait until we are too old and have nothing, then a rebuild is going to take 11 years.

 

There are decent pieces in the farm that could be ready soon but they need some bluechippers to round it out.

I would argue otherwise…see my previous post.

 

However, I do understand your idea, and to some extent, it’s the best time

to cash in on high value returns on guys like Lindholm, Manji, Tachuck…and a few others you could net a lot of 1st rounders in 2022 and 2023 many of whom would be as good or better than our current roster….

 

But Cgy has never and will never do a full clear slate so we have to accept that…

[cross16]

2 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

I would argue otherwise…see my previous post.

 

However, I do understand your idea, and to some extent, it’s the best time

to cash in on high value returns on guys like Lindholm, Manji, Tachuck…and a few others you could net a lot of 1st rounders in 2022 and 2023 many of whom would be as good or better than our current roster….

 

But Cgy has never and will never do a full clear slate so we have to accept that…

 

 

While fair and very fair to question the patience of this ownership group I think something else should be pointed out. 

 

No organization in the salary cap era has ever done what is being proposed here. That doesn't mean to say it's wrong just I think we should point out it's never been done by any ownership group or organization since the cap was brought in. 

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

 

While fair and very fair to question the patience of this ownership group I think something else should be pointed out. 

 

No team in the salary cap era has ever done what is being proposed here. 

 

The Senators sorta gutted their team after the Karlsson/Hoffman thing.  They went to the Conference Finals and then blew up their team.

[sak22]

15 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

No just look at the team Sutter inherited and did nothing with for his first half season.  Losing Gaudreau puts us back to that level.  If you give Sutter nothing much to work with then he can only do so much.

 

Moreover, Zadorov and Gudbranson may leave as well and they were a huge part of Sutter's system.

 

I get the whole "there will be money to spend if these guys leave" but it's doubtful we attract UFAs if Gaudreau leaves and it appears we are going to take a huge step backwards as a result.

Weird season to base it off of, but when you are banking off of the LA midseason change I think it clouds judgement.  His first time here he was 19-18-8-1 as a midseason replacement, prorate that to a full season it is around 83 points and not good enough for the playoffs, his LA record after coming in was 25-13-11 you can say it is only a game over .500 with a lot of loser points.  But probably a bit difficult in a year with restrictions, scheduling conflicts, etc.  2 years ago all the players talked about was how strong the room was, last year the fans all pointed out locker room issues, and this year it was back to a close room.  Some will probably blame it all on Gio, but I think frustrations on the ice last year don't translate when things are frustrating off the ice, wasn't much off ice bonding and single players were isolated from teammates and family or friends off the ice.  Not saying it is a Flames only excuse, but just that it would be more difficult if your not performing to expectations.

[sak22]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

The Senators sorta gutted their team after the Karlsson/Hoffman thing.  They went to the Conference Finals and then blew up their team.

Made a pretty significant trade in between that.  But Karlsson wanted out, Stone wasn't resigning and then neither was Duchene.  They gutted their team in a year they didn't even have their own first round pick, which wound up with the highest odds of being #1.

[The_People1]

17 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

replace Gaudreau and still have a solid playoff roster…maybe even better balanced? 

 

No that's the thing though.  If we are happy just being a playoff team then we just keep marching forward without Gaudreau.  We can scrap together a playoff team.  We won't go far though.

[The_People1]

5 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Made a pretty significant trade in between that.  But Karlsson wanted out, Stone wasn't resigning and then neither was Duchene.  They gutted their team in a year they didn't even have their own first round pick, which wound up with the highest odds of being #1.

 

Just saying though.  You don't have to wait until your core guys are all old and worthless to begin a rebuild.  When it's the right time, then it's the right time.

[travel_dude]

Day 1 of the true off-season and we are at 35 pages already.  We probably have about 3 or 4 distinct discussions, which is fine.  Unfortunately, we don't know what we are doing in the negotiations of the top 2 players on the team.  We haven't signed Gaudreau and Tkachuk.  We don't have a clue as to what is happening there, since we don't leak to the media.  All we have is a few analysts creating panic.  Still close to 3 weeks before Gaudreau starts listening to other offers.  Tkachuk, Mange and Kylington are under control.

 

I would prefer that we don't hold up other conversations with players we have under control currently and are in a position to start talking trades and UFA signings should we have room to do that.  The gag order with this team is just annoying right now.  No real clarity.