The_People1 Posted June 24, 2022 Report Share Posted June 24, 2022 15 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said: UFA rights are worth very little. Kevin Hayes' UFA rights went from WPG to PHI for a 5th round pick. It's not nothing, but it's not much. Again, I'm not reading much if anything into the lack of Gaudreau news. The whole league has been quiet aside from head coach hirings. I've kinda had the belief all-along that if Johnny stays, it will be in the week leading up to UFA, maybe even the 12th. I don't blame him, this is a very big decision. If Gaudreau ends up leaving, I think you bump Mangiapane up to the Lindholm line. Then I think the Flames will look for a 2nd line winger in UFA. I'm sure the Flames would love to have Kadri or Forsberg, but so would every team in the league. I actually think the Flames would have a better shot at signing Kadri than Forsberg. With Kadri the AAV will be between 7-8. The issue will be term, if CGY were to offer the most term, they likely get Kadri IMO. It's likely not the right move, but if Gaudreau leaves the Flames will be desperate and that could result in 6 or 7 years for Kadri. With Forsberg, every offer will be 7 years, so it would take a really high AAV to entice him IMO. He feels like an LA King to me. Nah man we aren't a Cup contender if we lose our MVP... And worse, maybe not a playoff team at all. Sutter had the same group for half a season when he first took over and accomplished nothing with them. He can do the same again if we lose Gaudreau. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted June 24, 2022 Report Share Posted June 24, 2022 Let's do Tkachuk to NJ for, 2OA + Holtz + Zacha 2OA (draft either Nemec or Jiricek. Both are RHS RD with #1 D potential. We don't have RHS RD in development) Holtz was former 7th overall. RHS RW/LW could work well with Lindholm who is a fellow Swede. He's a speedster with a crazy wrist shot. Don't know about overall vision and IQ but has scoring potential at the NHL level. Zacha can immediately play 2nd/3rd line Center. Has good size to replace losing Tkachuk's size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted June 24, 2022 Report Share Posted June 24, 2022 1 hour ago, The_People1 said: Hoping we can get clarity from Gaudreau before the draft July 7. Otherwise, I think the Flames should pivot to trading his rights... And subsequently also trade Tkachuk because there's no way Tkachuk is a $10-mil player without Gaudreau. If it's about the money, then I think Gaudreau would have already signed with the Flames. There's really nothing much to think about because the Flames can offer the most money and term. That's not really true, structure has become very important to players too. What is salary vs bonus, front load vs back load and then does that % of money being paid in bonus change year by year or is it static? Many players are trying to move bonuses around now to stack the money once the escrow is paid back so there are more than a few things to go back and forth about. On top of that what is the motivation to sign right now? What is the harm with waiting and seeing if the Flames will flinch. If the Flames lose Gaudreau I don't think for a second they will rebuild. Can absolutely argue what the better route is but I think we can be honest that it won't change their plans. I think this is still a playoff team without Gaudreau too. Maybe, stress maybe, if Gaudreau goes and then Tkachuk wants out (not sure this is likely honestly) then maybe the Flames would "rebuild" but I still doubt it. I think the owners would push Treliving to keep trying to find ways to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted June 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2022 13 minutes ago, The_People1 said: Nah man we aren't a Cup contender if we lose our MVP... And worse, maybe not a playoff team at all. Sutter had the same group for half a season when he first took over and accomplished nothing with them. He can do the same again if we lose Gaudreau. I think the Flames will try to be competitive this year. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. I fully expect the Flames to put off a rebuild for as long as possible, like they did in 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted June 24, 2022 Report Share Posted June 24, 2022 6 minutes ago, cross16 said: That's not really true, structure has become very important to players too. What is salary vs bonus, front load vs back load and then does that % of money being paid in bonus change year by year or is it static? Many players are trying to move bonuses around now to stack the money once the escrow is paid back so there are more than a few things to go back and forth about. On top of that what is the motivation to sign right now? What is the harm with waiting and seeing if the Flames will flinch. If the Flames lose Gaudreau I don't think for a second they will rebuild. Can absolutely argue what the better route is but I think we can be honest that it won't change their plans. I think this is still a playoff team without Gaudreau too. Maybe, stress maybe, if Gaudreau goes and then Tkachuk wants out (not sure this is likely honestly) then maybe the Flames would "rebuild" but I still doubt it. I think the owners would push Treliving to keep trying to find ways to win. Yes let me clarify. I think the Flames SHOULD rebuild if Gaudreau is gone this summer. I didn't mean to say they will. I also lean 90% they will not rebuild because that's just how the Flames operate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted June 24, 2022 Report Share Posted June 24, 2022 6 minutes ago, The_People1 said: Yes let me clarify. I think the Flames SHOULD rebuild if Gaudreau is gone this summer. I didn't mean to say they will. I also lean 90% they will not rebuild because that's just how the Flames operate. And to be fair I would agree. Doesn't make much sense to me to try and push forward if you lose an asset like that for nothing. Just don't think it will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP5029 Posted June 24, 2022 Report Share Posted June 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said: UFA rights are worth very little. Kevin Hayes' UFA rights went from WPG to PHI for a 5th round pick. It's not nothing, but it's not much. Again, I'm not reading much if anything into the lack of Gaudreau news. The whole league has been quiet aside from head coach hirings. I've kinda had the belief all-along that if Johnny stays, it will be in the week leading up to UFA, maybe even the 12th. I don't blame him, this is a very big decision. If Gaudreau ends up leaving, I think you bump Mangiapane up to the Lindholm line. Then I think the Flames will look for a 2nd line winger in UFA. I'm sure the Flames would love to have Kadri or Forsberg, but so would every team in the league. I actually think the Flames would have a better shot at signing Kadri than Forsberg. With Kadri the AAV will be between 7-8. The issue will be term, if CGY were to offer the most term, they likely get Kadri IMO. It's likely not the right move, but if Gaudreau leaves the Flames will be desperate and that could result in 6 or 7 years for Kadri. With Forsberg, every offer will be 7 years, so it would take a really high AAV to entice him IMO. He feels like an LA King to me. Your comparing Kevin Hayes to Gaudreau? um look at at when we acquired Bowmester…I believe that was a 1st rounder for rights to which we negotiated and sighed him… I think you your looking at a 1st + for Gaudreau…I’m thinking Gaudreau to phi for 5th OA + either Senhim or someone like that or To NJD for 3rd OA + this would be a much lower range player or Prospect as 3 OA is a pretty valuable pick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted June 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 26 minutes ago, MP5029 said: Your comparing Kevin Hayes to Gaudreau? um look at at when we acquired Bowmester…I believe that was a 1st rounder for rights to which we negotiated and sighed him… I think you your looking at a 1st + for Gaudreau…I’m thinking Gaudreau to phi for 5th OA + either Senhim or someone like that or To NJD for 3rd OA + this would be a much lower range player or Prospect as 3 OA is a pretty valuable pick Calgary traded Jordan Leopold and a 3rd rounder for the rights to Bouw. The Flames aren't getting a 1st for Gaudreau's UFA rights. It's just not gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 19 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said: Calgary traded Jordan Leopold and a 3rd rounder for the rights to Bouw. The Flames aren't getting a 1st for Gaudreau's UFA rights. It's just not gonna happen. and just to add i think that’s still the highest price a team has paid for UFA rights. Going off memory so I could be wrong but I can’t think of a circumstance where a players UFA rights garnered more. I agree if the flames shop the UFA rights they might get a mid round pick and j don’t think we should expect anything more. I honestly doubt they’ll even shop the rights. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted June 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 22 minutes ago, cross16 said: and just to add i think that’s still the highest price a team has paid for UFA rights. Going off memory so I could be wrong but I can’t think of a circumstance where a players UFA rights garnered more. I agree if the flames shop the UFA rights they might get a mid round pick and j don’t think we should expect anything more. I honestly doubt they’ll even shop the rights. I think it might be. Not often you see a roster player included. The closest would be Jimmy Vesey's rights being sent from Nashville to Buffalo for a 3rd. That's just off the top of my head though. I suppose if someone wanted to be optimistic, Calgary could maybe get a 3rd for Gaudreau. There's almost a week between the draft and UFA and I'm not sure a 3rd rounder is worth ending negotiations with the Gaudreau camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP5029 Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said: Calgary traded Jordan Leopold and a 3rd rounder for the rights to Bouw. The Flames aren't getting a 1st for Gaudreau's UFA rights. It's just not gonna happen. I’d be ok with a 3rd and Leopold Level player back for gaudreau… having said that, Gaudreau > JBow by far and he’s still young…he’d fetch far more. I can’t recall a player in the same range as Gaudreau where his rights would be up for grabs… the closest things is the JBow trade, and like I said Gaudreau I’d by far > than JBow…so so you looking at more than 3+ top 4D for Gaudreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 4 hours ago, The_People1 said: Hoping we can get clarity from Gaudreau before the draft July 7. Otherwise, I think the Flames should pivot to trading his rights... And subsequently also trade Tkachuk because there's no way Tkachuk is a $10-mil player without Gaudreau. If it's about the money, then I think Gaudreau would have already signed with the Flames. There's really nothing much to think about because the Flames can offer the most money and term. I don't agree. There is almost an unwritten rule you don't sign while the cup is still being played for. But that's just minor. BT drags this out a lot longer than most GM's. If we had zero cap issues and a different GM, he would have offered every cent he could afford just to get it done and move on. He doesn't and he also doesn't work like that. H doesn't hve a blank cheque. He has to try to get the entire roster in under the wire and has to move a little bit each time, not big jumps. Look at Nashville, completely different. They went in with their top offer and are miles apart. They may lose the player because they set the top dollar. He's a funny thing to consider. We could trade Gaudreau to Nashville and probably get another asset out of it. Gaudreau for Jeannot + Forsberg (maybe). Rights dealt of course. Both players have to be open to signing in the new team. It sounds like a crazy trade, but both teams come out of it smelling like roses. Nashville loses an asset in a trade instead of losing a guy for nothing. They get a top player, we get a top scoring player. ANd Jeannot gets us the tough player we really want. Pipe dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted June 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 24 minutes ago, MP5029 said: I’d be ok with a 3rd and Leopold Level player back for gaudreau… having said that, Gaudreau > JBow by far and he’s still young…he’d fetch far more. I can’t recall a player in the same range as Gaudreau where his rights would be up for grabs… the closest things is the JBow trade, and like I said Gaudreau I’d by far > than JBow…so so you looking at more than 3+ top 4D for Gaudreau I think it's important to keep in mind that there's a level of risk for any team trading for UFA rights. It's a lot different than trading for an RFA or a player under contract. Just because that team trades for him doesn't mean he will ever play for them. This happened with Buffalo when they traded a 3rd for Jimmy Vesey, he never signed so they gave away a pick for nothing. That is always gonna limit your return. I also think it's important to remember that the Bouwmeester deal was in 2009 the landscape of the league has changed quite a bit. Also worth noting that Leopold was a UFA as well when he was involved in that deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sak22 Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 3 hours ago, The_People1 said: Nah man we aren't a Cup contender if we lose our MVP... And worse, maybe not a playoff team at all. Sutter had the same group for half a season when he first took over and accomplished nothing with them. He can do the same again if we lose Gaudreau. Keep in mind a couple years ago Gaudreau was far from this past seasons Gaudreau and the team was still a playoff team with Geoff Ward and Talbot/Rittich. If Gaudreau goes we probably see less 5-2's and more 3-2 games, can't base next season entirely off last season, even if Gaudreau and Tkachuk stay we shouldn't expect 100's out of each again, but at the same time there is a strong possibility of increased production out of a Dube, Coleman or Toffoli. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfire11 Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 5 hours ago, The_People1 said: Let's do Tkachuk to NJ for, 2OA + Holtz + Zacha 2OA (draft either Nemec or Jiricek. Both are RHS RD with #1 D potential. We don't have RHS RD in development) Holtz was former 7th overall. RHS RW/LW could work well with Lindholm who is a fellow Swede. He's a speedster with a crazy wrist shot. Don't know about overall vision and IQ but has scoring potential at the NHL level. Zacha can immediately play 2nd/3rd line Center. Has good size to replace losing Tkachuk's size. If we find out JG wants to be closer to home then why not trade both Tkachuk and JG to New Jersey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 4 hours ago, redfire11 said: If we find out JG wants to be closer to home then why not trade both Tkachuk and JG to New Jersey Well as others have already stated, JG's rights aren't worth anything when the world knows he's going to sign in NJ. I hope we can sign him and still do this trade. Tkachuk also has ties to NJ through their GM. Maybe that's where Tkachuk also wants to be to get the most money. If we trade him at the draft then we trade him before his QO so we trade him before he can take a 1-year deal. NJ is an up and coming team with lots of young core pieces in place. They will be Cup contenders soon. Where Gaudreau doesn't have that many prime years to wait for NJ to be good, Tkachuk does. Holtz can replace Tkachuk's scoring (35-goals, 85-points). Zacha can be our new 2nd line Center (take a chance on a kid who is about to breakout offensively). Nemec/Jiricek can be our future #1 RHS RD. We need this badly in the organization. Holtz is on a rookie deal. Zacha is RFA but numbers haven't been great. Maybe $3.5 x 3. Based on this, we can give Gaudreau and Mangiapane their raises and even keep Monahan. Might even have the money to bring back both Zadorov and Gudbranson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP5029 Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 I’m not understanding why people want to trade Tachuck if we loose Gaudreau? seems like a smarter idea to lock up a young and still developing, and potential future C in Tachuck. He’s only 24! seems to to me at least, if we loose Gaudreau to FA there are a few decent options which may even be a bit cheaper…Cgy can still build around Tachuck and maybe even trade the likes of Backlund…Lucic, Monahan (doubts on this one and I think if he’s fully healthy he’s worth keeping as the 2nd line Ctr.) anyway it’s easier to replace one FA for another FA than a full rebuild which is really not gonna happen with Sutter here for another year and it’s just not what Cgy dose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bosn111 Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 If Gaudreau leaves, then the team is significantly reduced. Lindholm is good, but Johnny makes him much better. Tkachuk is good, but with all the attention he gets from his extra stuff, he needs a player like Johnny to take focus off of him. He doesn’t have the speed of McDavid to make his own space, so when teams crowd Tkachuk, he is less successful. There is nothing that makes it look like Monahan will bounce back. He can still be serviceable in a middle 6 C role if he has a bit of a resurgence, but he most likely will never be that top line C again. Too many injuries, he was never fast to start with and as a shoot first C, he doesn’t fit with Tkachuk, Mangiapane or Toffoli. There isn’t really a UFA on the market that replaces what Johnny does. Philip Forsberg is likely the best offence replacement but he is less of a passer than Johnny. Kadri could be interesting but I would not offer more than 4 years. Basically the idea for me is that if Gaudreau leaves, I don’t think full rebuild is necessary as there are ways to retool through trade and UFA. If Gaudreau walks and you trade Tkachuk, Backlund, Dube and Monahan, you have cap space to re-sign Mangiapane, Kylington, Gudbranson, Jarnkrok and maybe Zadorov plus bring in Forsberg, Kadri and whoever comes back in trades. Forsberg / Lindholm / ?? Mangiapane / Kadri / Coleman Pelletier / Jarnkrok / Toffoli Lucic / Ruzicka / Duehr Just an idea of what could be, not necessarily what should be. Does this make the Flames better or worse? More skilled overall? likely, but loss of Gaudreau hurts. Tougher? Debatable depending on RW since Kadri is similar to Tkachuk. A little weaker defensively without Backlund. Faster? Definitely. Younger? Yes if they bring up my 3 suggestions. I think the Flames could lose Johnny, Chucky and Backlund and stay competitive if they can lure the right UFAs and would be better off cap wise for it. I would prefer to keep Gaudreau, but there are options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 1 hour ago, bosn111 said: I think the Flames could lose Johnny, Chucky and Backlund and stay competitive if they can lure the right UFAs and would be better off cap wise for it. I would prefer to keep Gaudreau, but there are options. We have one year of cap troubles to deal with. Some future issues no doubt, but cap will be going up then. Forsberg and Kadri just means that we have spent 16M instead of 20 or 21M. If you traded Tkachuk, you best be getting something to add to that lineup you posted. It looks a lot less than what we ended with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bosn111 Posted June 25, 2022 Report Share Posted June 25, 2022 How is it “a lot less”? As you point out, there is a 5 or 6 mil cap savings. Add the savings from Monahan, Backlund and Dube which jumps around 12 million more. That is 17-18 mil in cap space to use either on a RW, re-signing other players and possibly upgrading the D. I never said we should do this, but it would be a way to remain competitive IF Gaudreau walks away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 4 hours ago, bosn111 said: How is it “a lot less”? As you point out, there is a 5 or 6 mil cap savings. Add the savings from Monahan, Backlund and Dube which jumps around 12 million more. That is 17-18 mil in cap space to use either on a RW, re-signing other players and possibly upgrading the D. I never said we should do this, but it would be a way to remain competitive IF Gaudreau walks away. I was working on 16 vs 20 or 21, which is 4 or 5. But that means we have sold Tkachuk for just draft picks? If we get about $5M back in roster player(s) in the trade, then we are even. Essentially you are doing a rebuild and retool if Tkachuk goes for picks, Backlund for picks, Dube for picks, Monahan buyout. Kadri and Forsberg get you closer to a playoff team, but I'm not sure there is enough experience left. Jarnkrok is no Backlund. Anyway, if Gaudreau doesn't sign we have bigger problems. Forsberg doesn't make Tkachuk a 40 goal guy again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP5029 Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 8 hours ago, travel_dude said: I was working on 16 vs 20 or 21, which is 4 or 5. But that means we have sold Tkachuk for just draft picks? If we get about $5M back in roster player(s) in the trade, then we are even. Essentially you are doing a rebuild and retool if Tkachuk goes for picks, Backlund for picks, Dube for picks, Monahan buyout. Kadri and Forsberg get you closer to a playoff team, but I'm not sure there is enough experience left. Jarnkrok is no Backlund. Anyway, if Gaudreau doesn't sign we have bigger problems. Forsberg doesn't make Tkachuk a 40 goal guy again. Also, if you let Gaudreau walk, trade Tachuck Backlund and Duebe while buying out Monahan…your not gonna get any of those UFA’s to sign here as they probably want to play on a contending team. i think the best option is to 1. Hopefully get Gaudreau to re-sign…if not maybe sign Forsberg or another UFA to fill the LW gap or mayne Pelletier on the 2nd line and bring Manji up to the 1st line LW 2. Re-sign Tachuck no matter what 3. Explore options to trade Lucic’s contract may cost a 2nd rounder but would be worth it. 4. Trade Backlund, has a reasonable contract and also has some trade value…hard to replace yes but there are some options…especially if we use Monahan at 2nd line Ctr with Toffoil at RW and bring in a Lw or Promote Pelletier. Move Coleman to the 3rd line as the anchor for the line on the LW with Dube on the RW and either bring in a new Ctr or promote Ruzi that should be plenty of $$$ and cap space for everyone and also allow is to grab a pick via Backlund trade and sign some UFA’s and maybe even add a D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 I'm going all in on don't trade Dube. It makes little sense. He's $2.3per for 2 more yrs and just 23. For perspective, Toffoli makes $2mil more. Does he give you 2mil more than Dube does? I just don't understand the general willingness to trade him. Is our aim to be the slowest team in the league again? We could potentially invent a line this year of our homegrown prospects. Pelletier-Ruzicka-Dube. 2 playmaking wingers with speed and a big C. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 3 hours ago, conundrumed said: I'm going all in on don't trade Dube. It makes little sense. He's $2.3per for 2 more yrs and just 23. For perspective, Toffoli makes $2mil more. Does he give you 2mil more than Dube does? I just don't understand the general willingness to trade him. Is our aim to be the slowest team in the league again? We could potentially invent a line this year of our homegrown prospects. Pelletier-Ruzicka-Dube. 2 playmaking wingers with speed and a big C. The isea of trading Dube is if he can bring in a top D. Not by himself, but as part of the deal. Or that we could get a bigger okayer, not a slower one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted June 26, 2022 Report Share Posted June 26, 2022 8 hours ago, conundrumed said: I'm going all in on don't trade Dube. It makes little sense. He's $2.3per for 2 more yrs and just 23. For perspective, Toffoli makes $2mil more. Does he give you 2mil more than Dube does? I just don't understand the general willingness to trade him. Is our aim to be the slowest team in the league again? We could potentially invent a line this year of our homegrown prospects. Pelletier-Ruzicka-Dube. 2 playmaking wingers with speed and a big C. I would not give Dube away or use him as a throw in. However, if he has to be in a trade to get us a #1 LD or #2 Center then we should do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now