The Re-signing Thread

[travel_dude]

54 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Could be but I think that also gets offset by the fact Mang goal scoring rate is better. League does tend to pay more for goals. 

 

 

I think it provides a ball park. I feel like McCann gave the Kraken a bit of a deal here but I think most comps i've looked at a fair deal for both sides is somewhere in the 5-6 AAV range on a longer term deal. 

I do think the term and dollars is reasonable and should be what both sides work towards.  An arbitration pending case gives them time to hammer one out, but IMHO 5x5 is good for the player.  He's not on a top line.  He's tied for team lead in goals only.  He's very efficient in scoring.  He's not just benefitting from a top player passing to him. 

[pikey7883]

Was thinking about the guys we need to re-up this year. And thought I would give this a kick start after the way Johnny is finishing the year. 
1. Gaudreau, is proving that he is an elite winger, and when paired with talented shooters and others with high hockey iq. He can be the game changer everyone wants, for me that puts him in Kane, Panarin, Marner type contract levels. Which is $10.5-$11.5 range per year, and I would venture to say that he is worth it. However Kane I believe was 26-27 when he signed it, Panarin 27-28 (and a late bloomer), and Marner hit pay dirt too early. 
That being said, the flames should approach this two ways IMO, “we want to give you the $10.5/year because you deserve it, but we can’t extend you past 6 years at that price.” That would take him to his 35 year old year. If he is not keen to that and wants the full term, then money stays the same and salary goes down to $8 x 8. And we can do a pro rated cap hit, to make it easier to either buy him out or trade if he wants down the road. 
2. Tkachuk for me look no further than the Kaprizov deal. Give him the $9 mil he is looking for for the next 8 years, and let Dutter decide if he’s ready to put another C on his chest on top of the flaming C after this season.

3. Mang is a tricky one, because by rights he should be getting paid like a 30 +goal scorer, but those are the contracts that get teams in trouble. The middle of the road contracts. A $5-$6 million per year guy can either make a GM look like a genius for signing them long term or the reason they get fired. I would most likely like to keep him around Toff and Lindy Money, until after Toff and Lindys deals expire, because it will give you the flexibility to re-up Lindy, and you’ll have a better sample size to see what you have. He should be our permanent 2nd line LW for the foreseeable future, and for me that needs to be a 2 year deal at $5 (similar to marchessault or dadonov in Vegas, palat in Tampa). You’re not the guy, but you are extremely valuable to the success of this team.

Just my thoughts, cheers everyone.

[flames for life]

1 hour ago, pikey7883 said:

Was thinking about the guys we need to re-up this year. And thought I would give this a kick start after the way Johnny is finishing the year. 
1. Gaudreau, is proving that he is an elite winger, and when paired with talented shooters and others with high hockey iq. He can be the game changer everyone wants, for me that puts him in Kane, Panarin, Marner type contract levels. Which is $10.5-$11.5 range per year, and I would venture to say that he is worth it. However Kane I believe was 26-27 when he signed it, Panarin 27-28 (and a late bloomer), and Marner hit pay dirt too early. 
That being said, the flames should approach this two ways IMO, “we want to give you the $10.5/year because you deserve it, but we can’t extend you past 6 years at that price.” That would take him to his 35 year old year. If he is not keen to that and wants the full term, then money stays the same and salary goes down to $8 x 8. And we can do a pro rated cap hit, to make it easier to either buy him out or trade if he wants down the road. 
2. Tkachuk for me look no further than the Kaprizov deal. Give him the $9 mil he is looking for for the next 8 years, and let Dutter decide if he’s ready to put another C on his chest on top of the flaming C after this season.

3. Mang is a tricky one, because by rights he should be getting paid like a 30 +goal scorer, but those are the contracts that get teams in trouble. The middle of the road contracts. A $5-$6 million per year guy can either make a GM look like a genius for signing them long term or the reason they get fired. I would most likely like to keep him around Toff and Lindy Money, until after Toff and Lindys deals expire, because it will give you the flexibility to re-up Lindy, and you’ll have a better sample size to see what you have. He should be our permanent 2nd line LW for the foreseeable future, and for me that needs to be a 2 year deal at $5 (similar to marchessault or dadonov in Vegas, palat in Tampa). You’re not the guy, but you are extremely valuable to the success of this team.

Just my thoughts, cheers everyone.

I think Mangie would be good at 3 yrs at 5.65.  That would, I believe, make him 28-29 for his next contract.  That allows for a bigger contract in the time players tend to take a bigger step.

[pikey7883]

1 hour ago, flames for life said:

I think Mangie would be good at 3 yrs at 5.65.  That would, I believe, make him 28-29 for his next contract.  That allows for a bigger contract in the time players tend to take a bigger step.

That could work, and I forgot that Backs contract is up before Lindys, so his money can go to Lindholm. I like it, good idea

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, flames for life said:

I think Mangie would be good at 3 yrs at 5.65.  That would, I believe, make him 28-29 for his next contract.  That allows for a bigger contract in the time players tend to take a bigger step.

 

Ideally, you buy as many UFA years as possible.  3 years gets you two I think.  I know short term cap management is a goal, but there are things to be said about locking a guy up.  How bad is it that we only have bargain contracts for Johnny and Lindy now?  Lindy's lasts only another 2 years.  It was a bargain when we signed it, but we needed a bargain.  

 

I just don't want to get caught 3 years from now trying to re-sign a player that again exceeds expectations.  You go short, it probably costs a bit more now and future.  A two year bridge is probably no longer a reality.  If it is, it's not cheap.  

 

The thing about players hitting 29, is that it tends to be the last contract they sign for any great amount of money.  To keep it cheap, you have to go 6-8 years then.  I would rather get it out of the way and sign him long term.  That's just me.  In 5 years, that money will look small if he's a 30 goal scorer.  If he's not scoring at that level, then it's a Coleman deal.  

 

My preferences would be (and I'm not sure how realistic they are):

Gaudreau 8 x $10M

Tkachuk 8 x $9M

Mangiapane 7 x $5.6M

Kylington 4 x $3.5M  

 

After next year, we have Backlund, Lindholm, Toffoli and Dube (RFA) needing neew deals, but we have 3 guys locked in.  We have Ruzie and Valimaki coming next year and possibly Pelletier.  Some value there to offset the big deals.  In two years, we have Tanev and Hanifin pending UFA; would rather have two guys locked up during that time.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Ideally, you buy as many UFA years as possible.  3 years gets you two I think.  I know short term cap management is a goal, but there are things to be said about locking a guy up.  How bad is it that we only have bargain contracts for Johnny and Lindy now?  Lindy's lasts only another 2 years.  It was a bargain when we signed it, but we needed a bargain.  

 

I just don't want to get caught 3 years from now trying to re-sign a player that again exceeds expectations.  You go short, it probably costs a bit more now and future.  A two year bridge is probably no longer a reality.  If it is, it's not cheap.  

 

The thing about players hitting 29, is that it tends to be the last contract they sign for any great amount of money.  To keep it cheap, you have to go 6-8 years then.  I would rather get it out of the way and sign him long term.  That's just me.  In 5 years, that money will look small if he's a 30 goal scorer.  If he's not scoring at that level, then it's a Coleman deal.  

 

My preferences would be (and I'm not sure how realistic they are):

Gaudreau 8 x $10M

Tkachuk 8 x $9M

Mangiapane 7 x $5.6M

Kylington 4 x $3.5M  

 

After next year, we have Backlund, Lindholm, Toffoli and Dube (RFA) needing neew deals, but we have 3 guys locked in.  We have Ruzie and Valimaki coming next year and possibly Pelletier.  Some value there to offset the big deals.  In two years, we have Tanev and Hanifin pending UFA; would rather have two guys locked up during that time.

 

Mangiapane is a great player but I wouldn't lock up a player for 7 or 8 years unless they were franchise guys OR it's a bargain of a deal (like Lindholm).  Mangiapane at $5.6-mil is "fair" for a second line LW who can score 60-points but it's not a steal or anything like that.  A 7-year deal means he is expected to score 30-goals for the next 7-years.

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Mangiapane is a great player but I wouldn't lock up a player for 7 or 8 years unless they were franchise guys OR it's a bargain of a deal (like Lindholm).  Mangiapane at $5.6-mil is "fair" for a second line LW who can score 60-points but it's not a steal or anything like that.  A 7-year deal means he is expected to score 30-goals for the next 7-years.

 

He's playing primarily on a shutdown line.  He's basically in his prime now.

So, some comps:

McCann 5x$5M

Farabe 6x$5M

 

Point - a high of 41, last three years less than 30.  Not expected to be a shutdown player.

 

5x5 is probably fair, but if you want to buy UFA years, it costs a bit more.  I'm bad at predicting salaries.  What is a 30 goal guy worth?

[The_People1]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

He's playing primarily on a shutdown line.  He's basically in his prime now.

So, some comps:

McCann 5x$5M

Farabe 6x$5M

 

Point - a high of 41, last three years less than 30.  Not expected to be a shutdown player.

 

5x5 is probably fair, but if you want to buy UFA years, it costs a bit more.  I'm bad at predicting salaries.  What is a 30 goal guy worth?

 

Don't need to buy too many UFA years for someone like Mangiapane.  A 4-year deal is best but do 5-year if it's a bargain number.

 

In 3-years, we may have Pelletier or Zary pushing for a top 6 LW role at half the cap hit.  Jack Beck and Rory Kerins appear to be sleeper picks with top 6 potential as well.  Maybe Dube pans out as 2nd line LW.  There are too many options for us to replace Mangiapane.

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Don't need to buy too many UFA years for someone like Mangiapane.  A 4-year deal is best but do 5-year if it's a bargain number.

 

In 3-years, we may have Pelletier or Zary pushing for a top 6 LW role at half the cap hit.  Jack Beck and Rory Kerins appear to be sleeper picks with top 6 potential as well.  Maybe Dube pans out as 2nd line LW.  There are too many options for us to replace Mangiapane.

 

If that happens, then you have a player with term you can trade.  If those guys become top 6 players and they are better than Mangiapane, then we are laughing.

[robrob74]

48 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Don't need to buy too many UFA years for someone like Mangiapane.  A 4-year deal is best but do 5-year if it's a bargain number.

 

In 3-years, we may have Pelletier or Zary pushing for a top 6 LW role at half the cap hit.  Jack Beck and Rory Kerins appear to be sleeper picks with top 6 potential as well.  Maybe Dube pans out as 2nd line LW.  There are too many options for us to replace Mangiapane.

i don’t think you can gamble that those players make it there yet. But at the same time, so you risk Mangiapane becoming a Johnson situation like what happened in Tampa? But I guess you gotta pay to get that while they can play to his previous Ability? Did he fall off of his 5.5 pace because it seemed like nobody wanted to take that contract. 
 

Can we count on Mangiapane continuing to make his own way? Is he a situation where if we could find another playmaker center and he explodes? 
 

if he continues to be that good when the players you mention come into their own, then Mangiapane could be tradable when that time comes. The hope is Coranato can replace him by then too, around years from now. 

[The_People1]

40 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If that happens, then you have a player with term you can trade.  If those guys become top 6 players and they are better than Mangiapane, then we are laughing.

 

Sure the risk is Mangiapane declines in production by then.  That's why 4/5 years is the best range.

[The_People1]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

i don’t think you can gamble that those players make it there yet. But at the same time, so you risk Mangiapane becoming a Johnson situation like what happened in Tampa? But I guess you gotta pay to get that while they can play to his previous Ability? Did he fall off of his 5.5 pace because it seemed like nobody wanted to take that contract. 
 

Can we count on Mangiapane continuing to make his own way? Is he a situation where if we could find another playmaker center and he explodes? 
 

if he continues to be that good when the players you mention come into their own, then Mangiapane could be tradable when that time comes. The hope is Coranato can replace him by then too, around years from now. 

 

Well, wingers are dime a dozen in the NHL when all is said and done.  Also, we will already be committing big money to two wingers (Gaudreau + Tkachuk).  I mean, unless Mangiapane is willing to take $4-mil-per then 7-years makes sense.

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well, wingers are dime a dozen in the NHL when all is said and done.  Also, we will already be committing big money to two wingers (Gaudreau + Tkachuk).  I mean, unless Mangiapane is willing to take $4-mil-per then 7-years makes sense.

 

It's a tough choice.  EDM has two star C's and little on the wing.

Over $25M up the middle and can afford one winger at close to $5M.

There are only a few C's that really score at a 30+ goal pace.

Way more wingers.

 

 

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Sure the risk is Mangiapane declines in production by then.  That's why 4/5 years is the best range.

i just mentioned what happened with Tyler Johnson in Tampa as an example of the risks. Mange plays bigger than he is too, so it could just take one bad hit. But you can’t negotiate that as it’s a what if scenario. 
 

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well, wingers are dime a dozen in the NHL when all is said and done.  Also, we will already be committing big money to two wingers (Gaudreau + Tkachuk).  I mean, unless Mangiapane is willing to take $4-mil-per then 7-years makes sense.

I don’t know if I agree. How many wingers can score like Mangiapane? 
 

im not even his biggest fan.  but if we went with your logic, he might be a good candidate to recoup some of the picks we just gave up and use his money to help re-sign Gaudreau and Tkachuk. 

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I don’t know if I agree. How many wingers can score like Mangiapane? 
 

im not even his biggest fan.  but if we went with your logic, he might be a good candidate to recoup some of the picks we just gave up and use his money to help re-sign Gaudreau and Tkachuk. 

 

Bring Mangiapane back for sure.  We are only discussing 4/5 years vs 7/8 years.

[robrob74]

50 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Bring Mangiapane back for sure.  We are only discussing 4/5 years vs 7/8 years.

cool! He’s a good player. 

What we need for him is a C to step up and open more ice for him, get him the puck in those spots. 

[travel_dude]

12 hours ago, robrob74 said:

i don’t think you can gamble that those players make it there yet. But at the same time, so you risk Mangiapane becoming a Johnson situation like what happened in Tampa? But I guess you gotta pay to get that while they can play to his previous Ability? Did he fall off of his 5.5 pace because it seemed like nobody wanted to take that contract. 
 

Can we count on Mangiapane continuing to make his own way? Is he a situation where if we could find another playmaker center and he explodes? 
 

if he continues to be that good when the players you mention come into their own, then Mangiapane could be tradable when that time comes. The hope is Coranato can replace him by then too, around years from now. 

 

Coronato is a RW most likely.  Possibly a Dube or Toffoli replacement in 3 years, but who really knows.

We have three top player that are solid where they are.

Mangiapane and Toffoli in that next tier, with maybe Dube if he grows.

Coleman you can fit anywhere except C.

 

That leaves us looking for a 2C in the immediate or Dube takes that role.

Next tier is (potential) Ruzicka, Pelletier, Zary, Coronato.

2-3 of those guys able to play NHL level for a third line would be great.

4th line a hodge podge.

 

If Ruzie could take that next step or two, he could be the answer to line 2.

I really don't see Mangiapane letting his foot off the gas over the next 5 years.

His balance may be his biggest issue.

Just because he is smaller doesn't set him up any worse than a Kucherov.

Virtually the same size.

[cross16]

I think Mangiapane needs to be a fairly high priority for the Flames to re-sign and if it takes a 6/7 year deal to do it I personally wouldn't blink at that. 

 

I think to gain some cap space and assets they should try and sell high on Kylington. 

[travel_dude]

36 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think Mangiapane needs to be a fairly high priority for the Flames to re-sign and if it takes a 6/7 year deal to do it I personally wouldn't blink at that. 

 

I think to gain some cap space and assets they should try and sell high on Kylington. 

 

Ideally, we could use Kylington in a trade for Chychrun, but that doesn't get us cap space as much as cap certainty for a player.  And an improvement overall.  I've been a supporter of Kylington this year, but I wonder if he has much more improvement left in him.  Or if we see a little regression to end the year and into next season.

 

There's not too many places we can cut cap.  Monahan and Lucic are the biggest hits with the least impact.  Can we manage moving one or both without sweeteners.  Can't buy out Lucic, but his $1M salary after signing bonus is paid is an interesting trade option.  He has control over his future (to a certain extent), but we did him a solid by honoring his NMC and only asking him to waive for the draft.  He's been given a chance by Sutter to show he's still a player. 

 

With Monahan, the only options are trade or buy out.  Can't keep him.  Trading him only works if we can find a team that takes a chance on him and has enough cap to not worry about it.  His contract is a negative, but could be a win for a team that looks to move him next TDL.  He would have to be scoring back close to his former self.   

[sak22]

 

$1 million extra with $1.5 of Brouwer finally coming off the books will definitely help.

[rocketdoctor]

I know you'll all think I am mad but can't we sell high on Tkachuk and send him out East?

 

What sort of return could we get for him?

[cross16]

5 minutes ago, sak22 said:

 

$1 million extra with $1.5 of Brouwer finally coming off the books will definitely help.

 

Just to build off this

 

 

Tough offseason this summer but further relief coming. Helps with long term commitments. 

[cross16]

1 minute ago, rocketdoctor said:

I know you'll all think I am mad but can't we sell high on Tkachuk and send him out East?

 

What sort of return could we get for him?

 

I don't think you'd get enough to fill the void. I think Tkachuk is criminally underrated in this market. 

 

I'm for discussing trading anyone but IMO you won't fill the void if you deal Tkachuk. Maybe it comes to that if the contract talks go south, but be prepared to be disappointed IMO. 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

I know you'll all think I am mad but can't we sell high on Tkachuk and send him out East?

 

What sort of return could we get for him?

 

I'm not convinced we get enough for him to "win" the trade.  Without winning it, the trade takes us sideways at best.  But then again it could be sneaky good.  Playing Sutter hockey, he's crushing it this year.