Flames Lineup - Suggested Lines

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, sak22 said:

Every team the Flames could possibly play is doing 3 in 4 nights to end the year, they aren't in the same position as the Flames can manage minutes, which Sutter has done all year.  Top forward is 27th in TOI/G, Top D is 41st, so I don't really worry about fatigue, injuries may happen but I'd say game 1 will be far more physical than game 82.  

 

We had a scheduled break last week, but the NHL jammed in a 2 game B2B.  It was in the mddle of a homestand and we were supposed to be off for 4 days.  Nope, your 4 days break is a B2B with travel.  

 

Physical fatigue is not what gets your injured, and I don't think these guys get that winded (maybe Lucic).  It's mental errors that put you in a bad position.  Delayed decision making and you get hit extra hard.  Playoff is playoffs, and once they start it's attrician.  A meaningless game and you block a shot on the PK.  It's a fine line from rolling nto the playoffs and getting a couple of keys guys a night off.

[robrob74]

57 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Physical fatigue is not what gets your injured, and I don't think these guys get that winded (maybe Lucic).  It's mental errors that put you in a bad position.  Delayed decision making and you get hit extra hard.  Playoff is playoffs, and once they start it's attrician.  A meaningless game and you block a shot on the PK.  It's a fine line from rolling nto the playoffs and getting a couple of keys guys a night off.

i think you just explained what happens when fatigue has set in. 

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, robrob74 said:

i think you just explained what happens when fatigue has set in. 

 

Two types though.  Perhaps I am overreaching.  Sutter knows the team pretty well and isn't going to play guys that are less than 100%.  BT and him will have had a conversation about what he needs and the considerations about callups.  The Heat have a buy in the first round of playoffs, so he can keep players up with no consequences.  But, Sutter also doesn't want too many extra guys to get into drills and practice.  3 goalies doesn't help, and would be emergency callup regardless.  We have 2 extra D and a couple extra F.  

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Two types though.  Perhaps I am overreaching.  Sutter knows the team pretty well and isn't going to play guys that are less than 100%.  BT and him will have had a conversation about what he needs and the considerations about callups.  The Heat have a buy in the first round of playoffs, so he can keep players up with no consequences.  But, Sutter also doesn't want too many extra guys to get into drills and practice.  3 goalies doesn't help, and would be emergency callup regardless.  We have 2 extra D and a couple extra F.  

 

If they have a lot of time, it might be neat if they could have the whole Heat team in town to watch the regular team practice, see what is done. Plus could be a good time for Sutter to just watch the farm practice in Calgary.

 

maybe Sutter can also share what will get them to the next level? I might be romanticizing this.

[rocketdoctor]

I love this..

 

[travel_dude]

47 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

I love this..

 

 

The gift that keeps on giving.  EDM also pays Lucic another $750k to not protect Connor.

Coaching up north didn't seem to understand that you play a guy to a role, not to his contract.

If I didn't know better, I would say that Holland must have signed Lucic to that deal as a UFA.

 

The Lucic trade was thought to be such a win for the Oilers GM.

Everyone called him a smart GM.

Yet, he re-sign Kassian for too long.

Trades for Keith with zero retention and loses a decent young D.

Trades a young D for a useless complementary scoring F.

Re-signs Barrie, because scoring goals is all you need.

Gets Kane, who gets to play on a scoring line to up his value.

Other GM's say thanks, we will sign him this summer.

Cap disaster waiting to happen this summer and worse in 23/24.

 

[cross16]

I still think it's a win/win to be honest. Easy to gloat but the flexibility gained by buying out Neal is what helped the Oilers land Hyman, bring in Foegle etc. Their forward group is deeper because of it and playing well right now. 

 

I think both sides got what they wanted. 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I still think it's a win/win to be honest. Easy to gloat but the flexibility gained by buying out Neal is what helped the Oilers land Hyman, bring in Foegle etc. Their forward group is deeper because of it and playing well right now. 

 

I think both sides got what they wanted. 

 

Season one looked like a clear victory.

Holland made use of the buyout space, but blew it all on Barrie, Keith and Ceci, without addressing the 40 year old elephant in the room.  $4M of that "cap space" was due to Klefbom being on LTIR.  I don't excactly remember how they managed to be under the cap on day 1, unless Klefbom was previously counted on LTIR and they could go over by that much.  Obviously Kane was added using LTIR cushion.

 

From a pure dollars perspective, Lucic was cheaper in actual $$ remaining on his contract.  Was traded after the bonus paid for the year.  

 

Holland has a much more challenging summer this year and leads into next season (23/24).  Needs a starter not named Smith.  New deals for Yamamoto and Puljujarvi and new "star" McLeod.  Klefbom is looking to play in 22/23, so no LTIR to work with.  

 

 

[travel_dude]

Regarding Lucic and Gudbranson sticking up for the team.  Was it two years ago that nobody would have Tkachuk's back because they felt he went over the edge too often?  Now you see a team that sticks up for their players.  Tkachuk does the same.  No way Lucic goes after Duchene just for being good at hockey.  That was for the spear the refs fails to enforce.  Nothing dirty about it.  Was a penalty every day of the week, but was an open ice hit.  We remember.  

 

What makes this good is that Tkachuk enjoyed the tilt.  He wasn't complaining about having to settle the score.  It was sending a message.  I don't really want the playoffs to devolve into this type of hockey, so sending a message was important.  

[LouCifer]

26 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 No way Lucic goes after Duchene just for being good at hockey.  That was for the spear the refs fails to enforce.  Nothing dirty about it.  Was a penalty every day of the week, but was an open ice hit.  We remember.  

 

What makes this good is that Tkachuk enjoyed the tilt.  He wasn't complaining about having to settle the score.  It was sending a message.  I don't really want the playoffs to devolve into this type of hockey, so sending a message was important.  

💯

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

I still think it's a win/win to be honest. Easy to gloat but the flexibility gained by buying out Neal is what helped the Oilers land Hyman, bring in Foegle etc. Their forward group is deeper because of it and playing well right now. 

 

I think both sides got what they wanted. 

 

$1.9-mil buyout penalty for 4-years tho.  Neal will keep hurting the Oilers long after Lucic retires as a Flames.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Regarding Lucic and Gudbranson sticking up for the team.  Was it two years ago that nobody would have Tkachuk's back because they felt he went over the edge too often?  Now you see a team that sticks up for their players.  Tkachuk does the same.  No way Lucic goes after Duchene just for being good at hockey.  That was for the spear the refs fails to enforce.  Nothing dirty about it.  Was a penalty every day of the week, but was an open ice hit.  We remember.  

 

What makes this good is that Tkachuk enjoyed the tilt.  He wasn't complaining about having to settle the score.  It was sending a message.  I don't really want the playoffs to devolve into this type of hockey, so sending a message was important.  

 

But at the same time, Tkachuk has toned it down too.  He's not trying to drag the team into a fight every game now.   He picks his spots.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

But at the same time, Tkachuk has toned it down too.  He's not trying to drag the team into a fight every game now.   He picks his spots.

 

Who had his back when he was getting ragdolled by Kassian?  Lucic wasn't on the ice.  McD cross checked him and charged him into the boards.  Nobody did anything.  Tkachuk was no better or worse than that last night.

[redfire11]

When ever Lucic has a strong physical game (think steam roller) the Flames excel and derive energy from him. I think for the playoffs (and playoffs ONLY) they should put the C on Lucic.

[LouCifer]

14 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

But at the same time, Tkachuk has toned it down too.  He's not trying to drag the team into a fight every game now.   He picks his spots.

 

Chucky's toned it down because he no longer has to carry that weight on his own. Guys like Lucic, Gudbranson, Zadorov, Ritchie have allowed Chucky to have the year he's having this year. 

[cross16]

16 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

$1.9-mil buyout penalty for 4-years tho.  Neal will keep hurting the Oilers long after Lucic retires as a Flames.

 

For sure, but they needed the flexibility now. 

 

I'm not advocating that either side side did a good thing here, just that I think both sides got what the needed and both sides turned a negative into a positive. I don't think there is a clear winner. 

 

Keep in mind, Lucic is going to have a big impact on their offseason. Think the complaints about that contract are going to get louder. 

[travel_dude]

48 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

For sure, but they needed the flexibility now. 

 

I'm not advocating that either side side did a good thing here, just that I think both sides got what the needed and both sides turned a negative into a positive. I don't think there is a clear winner. 

 

Keep in mind, Lucic is going to have a big impact on their offseason. Think the complaints about that contract are going to get louder. 

 

Once his bonus is paid out, he could potentially be a candidate to be traded.  $1M actual with a high cap hit.  Would probably be easier to trade than Monahan.  Not that it will happen, just a possible scenario.  

[sak22]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Once his bonus is paid out, he could potentially be a candidate to be traded.  $1M actual with a high cap hit.  Would probably be easier to trade than Monahan.  Not that it will happen, just a possible scenario.  

Not really, a 10 team list can be easily manipulated to include teams that don't have the cap space to take him on.  Vegas, Colorado, Toronto, Tampa, Florida, Boston, Rangers, St. Louis, Minnesota, Pittsburgh.  I don't believe he'll want to spend potentially his last year playing in a college arena or being the token vet on a young team.  

[cross16]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Once his bonus is paid out, he could potentially be a candidate to be traded.  $1M actual with a high cap hit.  Would probably be easier to trade than Monahan.  Not that it will happen, just a possible scenario.  

 

I'll be very surprised if that happens personally. Between the 10 team no trade, lack of cap space around the league, how much he seems to be enjoying it here, and the fact that the owners would have to ok a 3 mill cheque for someone to not play for them it feels unlikely to me he will be moved. 

 

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I'll be very surprised if that happens personally. Between the 10 team no trade, lack of cap space around the league, how much he seems to be enjoying it here, and the fact that the owners would have to ok a 3 mill cheque for someone to not play for them it feels unlikely to me he will be moved. 

 

 

His bonus gets paid on July 1st.  That's even before FA day.  He loves it here and we fans and the players love him too.  It's no different with him as it is to buying out Monahan or trading with some retained salary.  Costs money.  I'm not certain that either will be traded or in Monahan's case bought out.  Nor am I sure that Lucic would go for it. 

 

We only have so many ways to get under the cap.    

[conundrumed]

*bump

As a suggestion, this forum used to have a separate entry for GDTs and that was better imho.

Regardless, we have to start getting back to this with the changes, though I know the roster can still change.

So here goes...

Huberdeau-Lindholm-Dube

Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman

Pelletier-Monahan-Toffoli

Lucic-Rooney-Lewis

Ruzicka, Phillips

 

Weegar-Andersson

Hanifin-Tanev

Zadorov-Meloche

Leaving out spares on D...

So I've bolded my maybes, but first I'll address Kylington's absence. I never wanted to trade him but the additions of Weegar and Meloche have changed my mind.

Weegar plays both sides and is a RS. None of Andersson, Tanev or Weegar are 3rd pairing. Weegar needs LD for minutes. Both Weegar and Andersson are good on the PP, so whether it gives you a different look on PP1 or swap Weegar and Hanifin to give Weegar PP2 I'm not sure.

While I'm on D, I didn't know much about Meloche. So I've read about him, watched some video etc.

He's an RD and has upside to cover Zs flights of fancy.

Here's a good evaluation that I found:

https://www.fearthefin.com/2022/4/24/23007917/nicolas-meloche-top-25-san-jose-sharks-prospects-ranking-colorado-avalanche

 

Bolded forwards:

Dube - yup, you read that right. I freely admit that I'm a Dube homer. He has all of the tools just work on core strength. Huberdeau wants uptempo, all of the time. That fits Dube a lot better than his past linemates.

2nd line stays the same. I get the argument that it should be a 3rd, defensive line. That isn't my thinking.

Pelletier - Hope he makes the jump. Mony and Toffoli aren't exactly fast or great passers. Pelletier is both of those things and plays an honest 200' game.

Phillips - I believe push is now at shove. If we aren't going to give him a chance, for his sake, we have to move him.

 

 

[travel_dude]

Dube may be suited for top line, but Sutter may not think so.

He has way more time for Mangiapane in all situations.

It's the reality.

I'm not sure it works to have Mangiapane with Hubie, but he needs a playmaker.

Right now, he is our 2nd highest scoring F, depending on Hubie's output.

I would be comfortable with a 2nd scoring line if we had a 2C.

Toffoli on the RW, left wing not sure, maybe Pelletier could work as the playmaker.

That leaves Backlund as the 3C with Coleman (LW) and Dube or other on RW.

4th line with no Lucic or Monahan leaves us an option on LW.

Both players have limited trade value, but should be looked at.

 

I think we have to use Weeger as top 2 D.

We pick Hanifin or Kylington to pair up with Tanev and trade the leftover.

Meloche is not talked about but should be solid.

We also need to pick one of Mackey or Valimaki and trade the other.

Either will get claimed off the wire.

Can't lose valuable players for nothing like that.

[bosn111]

I agree TD, both Mangiapane and Toffoli are shooters who would benefit from a solid playmaker/passer like Huberdeau. I think Toffoli will play top line with Huberdeau and Lindholm as he is RHS. This should bump his stats for sure. If he doesn’t work out there, then only option becomes trading him,

 

Mangiapane scored 35 primarily with Backlund and no real consistent RW as I recall. Backlund is not a great playmaker but is solid all around with strength defensively. Getting a playmaker C or RW would boost Mangiapane’s stats further.

 

Dube for me is a conundrum. I really like his attitude to the game, his drive, his speed… but he doesn’t cause others to be better, his passing isn’t great and he doesn’t have an amazing shot. He also doesn’t have the size/strength to be extra physical. The team has had a lot of similar players in the past who play the game the right way, just something isn’t clicking and can’t quite figure out why it isn’t working. Some players that come to my mind as similar are Boyd, Byron, Dawes, Kobasew, Lombardi, Raymond and others. All talented and put in effort but something just didn’t click fully. You like them and feel there is more to come for them, but the more just doesn’t ever seem to arrive. At 24, Dube may still breakout, but I don’t know if the Flames have the patience to wait for it to happen. (See Bennett).

[travel_dude]

30 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

I agree TD, both Mangiapane and Toffoli are shooters who would benefit from a solid playmaker/passer like Huberdeau. I think Toffoli will play top line with Huberdeau and Lindholm as he is RHS. This should bump his stats for sure. If he doesn’t work out there, then only option becomes trading him,

 

Mangiapane scored 35 primarily with Backlund and no real consistent RW as I recall. Backlund is not a great playmaker but is solid all around with strength defensively. Getting a playmaker C or RW would boost Mangiapane’s stats further.

 

Dube for me is a conundrum. I really like his attitude to the game, his drive, his speed… but he doesn’t cause others to be better, his passing isn’t great and he doesn’t have an amazing shot. He also doesn’t have the size/strength to be extra physical. The team has had a lot of similar players in the past who play the game the right way, just something isn’t clicking and can’t quite figure out why it isn’t working. Some players that come to my mind as similar are Boyd, Byron, Dawes, Kobasew, Lombardi, Raymond and others. All talented and put in effort but something just didn’t click fully. You like them and feel there is more to come for them, but the more just doesn’t ever seem to arrive. At 24, Dube may still breakout, but I don’t know if the Flames have the patience to wait for it to happen. (See Bennett).

 

I just think we are not tapping the potential of Mange.

Backlund gives him transition chances, but mostly starts in the D-zone.

Coleman is a great fit with Backlund, so we are sacrificing offense on that line for backchecking.

 

I think Mangiapane has the speed to keep up with Huie and Lindy.

Might not be suited for RW though.

My ideal lineup has a 2C with Toffee and a playmaker.

Backlund pure shutdown, and if Dube is suited use him.

If not, use him to get a C or RW.

Right now, too many LHS on Backlund's line.

[JTech780]

Huberdeau-Lindholm- Toffoli

Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman

Pelletier-Monahan-Dube

Lucic-Rooney-Lewis

 

Weegar-Tanev

Hanifin-Andersson

Zadorov-Kylington

Valimaki-Mackey