Is this the final run?

[kehatch]

After missing the playoffs the past three seasons, the Flames traded Iginla kicking off a rebuild they had been procrastinating for far too long.  The following off season the Flames draft Sean Monahan, and over the next 5 seasons the Flames continued to rebuild their core.  This included signing their top prospect (Gaudreau), drafting Tkachuk, and adding both Lindholm and Hanafin in a trade.  

 

In the first season following the Lindholm / Hanafin acquisition the Flames won the Western Conference. Unfortunately, they were embarrassed in the first round of the playoffs.  The following season they squeaked into the Playoffs, and were again ousted in the first round.  Last season the Flames were 3 wins shy of making the playoffs in what was arguably the worst division in modern NHL history.  

 

Most fans, myself included, thought the Flames were in for a busy off season with changes to the core.  However, the Flames instead opted to take one more kick at it with the current core, likely due to the influence of the new head coach Daryll Sutter. Instead of making sweeping changes Treliving instead focused on depth players in an effort to make the Flames more difficult to play against (and more Sutter like).  

 

Both Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Mangiapane are due an extension next season, and Monahan the season after that. 

 

If the Flames falter this season do they continue to stay the course?  Do they finally make some changes to the teams core?  Or do we see the team enter into a full rebuild?   

[jjgallow]

On 9/10/2021 at 4:02 PM, kehatch said:

After missing the playoffs the past three seasons, the Flames traded Iginla kicking off a rebuild they had been procrastinating for far too long.  The following off season the Flames draft Sean Monahan, and over the next 5 seasons the Flames continued to rebuild their core.  This included signing their top prospect (Gaudreau), drafting Tkachuk, and adding both Lindholm and Hanafin in a trade.  

 

In the first season following the Lindholm / Hanafin acquisition the Flames won the Western Conference. Unfortunately, they were embarrassed in the first round of the playoffs.  The following season they squeaked into the Playoffs, and were again ousted in the first round.  Last season the Flames were 3 wins shy of making the playoffs in what was arguably the worst division in modern NHL history.  

 

Most fans, myself included, thought the Flames were in for a busy off season with changes to the core.  However, the Flames instead opted to take one more kick at it with the current core, likely due to the influence of the new head coach Daryll Sutter. Instead of making sweeping changes Treliving instead focused on depth players in an effort to make the Flames more difficult to play against (and more Sutter like).  

 

Both Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Mangiapane are due an extension next season, and Monahan the season after that. 

 

If the Flames falter this season do they continue to stay the course?  Do they finally make some changes to the teams core?  Or do we see the team enter into a full rebuild?   

 

Fantastic Post and Poll, you know my thoughts on this.    

 

I might just say that, at least personally, I don't find rebuilds to be a negative thing.    Everything leading up to them, yes.    But when you actually go into a rebuild, I mean, it's fun to watch the prospects.   It's great to see the AHL team win a championship in preparation for the big dance.    It means we get to see steady progression and improvement on the ice.

It's...honestly not bad.   Especially for enthusiast types that are on here.

 

I totally get the resistance to them and I get the philosophy that they should not be necessary.   And we've got lots of threads on that.

 

But...once it starts, it's actually a pretty great hockey experience.

 

IMHO, we are in the rebuild now, and it's just not announced.  Management is undecided.   But I think they are preparing to be decided as of this coming trade deadline.   Really you could Not pick two better drafts to be heading into.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

On 9/10/2021 at 5:02 PM, kehatch said:

After missing the playoffs the past three seasons, the Flames traded Iginla kicking off a rebuild they had been procrastinating for far too long.  The following off season the Flames draft Sean Monahan, and over the next 5 seasons the Flames continued to rebuild their core.  This included signing their top prospect (Gaudreau), drafting Tkachuk, and adding both Lindholm and Hanafin in a trade.  

 

In the first season following the Lindholm / Hanafin acquisition the Flames won the Western Conference. Unfortunately, they were embarrassed in the first round of the playoffs.  The following season they squeaked into the Playoffs, and were again ousted in the first round.  Last season the Flames were 3 wins shy of making the playoffs in what was arguably the worst division in modern NHL history.  

 

Most fans, myself included, thought the Flames were in for a busy off season with changes to the core.  However, the Flames instead opted to take one more kick at it with the current core, likely due to the influence of the new head coach Daryll Sutter. Instead of making sweeping changes Treliving instead focused on depth players in an effort to make the Flames more difficult to play against (and more Sutter like).  

 

Both Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Mangiapane are due an extension next season, and Monahan the season after that. 

 

If the Flames falter this season do they continue to stay the course?  Do they finally make some changes to the teams core?  Or do we see the team enter into a full rebuild?   

With only 4 playoff appearances in 10+ years and only one playoff round won since '04 is there any reason to think another disappointing season would change anything?

[jjgallow]

28 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

With only 4 playoff appearances in 10+ years and only one playoff round won since '04 is there any reason to think another disappointing season would change anything?

 

Historically we have gone into rebuilds after missing the playoffs more than one year in a row.

[The_People1]

On 9/10/2021 at 4:02 PM, kehatch said:

If the Flames falter this season do they continue to stay the course?  Do they finally make some changes to the teams core?  Or do we see the team enter into a full rebuild?   

 

We already know what the Flames are going to do.  Who are we kidding.

 

A better question is "do you think we should...", I mean, there's no question we should retool.  With pretty decent players under 25, we can turn this thing around much faster than we did in 2013 when we had nothing but a 29-year-old Mark Giordano.  Brodie and Backlund were under 25 but that's about it.  This time around, we have Tkachuk, Dube, Hanifin, Andersson, and Valimaki.  We also have a highly rated farm team with pieces like, Wolf, Coronato, Zary, and Pelletier.  That, plus honorable mentions like Francis, Phillips, Kuznetsov.  If we can dip into the draft for two years then we could be contending in 4 or 5.

[conundrumed]

Thanks kehatch for a NEW thread.lol

I voted rebuild if we have another year like last year.

But honestly, I think we have zoned in on some of the things that have really been hurting us.

Not much change to the core, but I'm not positive the core has been the problem.

A complete lack of 60 minutes of compete, no grit, no pushback, a team that always falls into a hole without the resilience to get out of it. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging they say. The team's composition never did that. "Have Ritchie beat someone up"...never mattered.

I like the adds, as residual as they seem. It will be the bottom 6 that keeps the entire roster up. So this is a retool to me. We've retooled our bottom 6, which was god awful. Most think it doesn't need move the needle, but I see it differently. Our bottom 6 is no longer going to get completely outworked so that is going to be a big boost.

How the roster comes together is pretty exciting to me. Lots of parts and methods it seems. Pitlick, for me, is a nice add. He will chip in with secondary scoring. His career high is 15 goals playing with junk and doing it all by himself. Coleman always plays with a sense of urgency so that's a nice add for what has been a pretty vanilla team.

When Sutter calls someone out in the media, Lewis and Richardson can talk to the player. "Yes. This is what he does. Don't get mad at him, get mad at yourself. He's not lying".

Role players that know their role very well.

Size on D. No more stick checking. Punish. Nothing slows a forward down more than being aware that there's a heavy hitter on the ice.

As much as I don't see Gudbranson as a good add, I also have to wonder if Sutter has always been laughing at his usage. He wanted him here, so he likely sees something that I don't.

Finally, this team filled me full of spite last year with their pathetic levels of, "try".

Whining about it got tiring to the point that my give-a-crap-level was the same as theirs. But that's exhausting too.

So I've stopped whining and it's a new season to watch and hope that fixing the bottom 6, piling in Dmen and G prospects is a good start. Now our top 6 has a platform to stand on. If they falter, then it's time to address that.

I hope we've fixed a lot of the real problems now. Not long term solutions, but perhaps a better look at being a true 4 line team, built from the net out. Without skipping over the 3rd and 4th lines like we could just throw anyone there.

 

[kehatch]

33 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

With only 4 playoff appearances in 10+ years and only one playoff round won since '04 is there any reason to think another disappointing season would change anything?

 

I think so.  

 

I think there is about a 0% chance the Flames go full rebuild. Last time ownership agreed to a rebuild we were well on our way to a fourth consecutive playoff miss.  Iginla was on an expiring contract, Kipper had all but retired, and they were out of options.  This time our core is young, since Gaudreau made the team we have made the playoffs 4 out of 7 seasons, and two of those misses were while we were still building.  With an arena on the way I can't see ownership agreeing to a rebuild unless something catastrophic comes up. 

 

But I do think there will could be significant changes.  Tkachuk, Mangiapane, and Gaudreau are all on expiring contracts, and Monahan only has one additional season.  That is a big chunk of the core and a big chunk of potential cap. If the Flames have a poor season, they will almost certainly make some big changes.  Especially if any of those guys aren't looking for a long term extension.  

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Thanks kehatch for a NEW thread.lol

I voted rebuild if we have another year like last year.

But honestly, I think we have zoned in on some of the things that have really been hurting us.

Not much change to the core, but I'm not positive the core has been the problem.

A complete lack of 60 minutes of compete, no grit, no pushback, a team that always falls into a hole without the resilience to get out of it. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging they say. The team's composition never did that. "Have Ritchie beat someone up"...never mattered.

I like the adds, as residual as they seem. It will be the bottom 6 that keeps the entire roster up. So this is a retool to me. We've retooled our bottom 6, which was god awful. Most think it doesn't need move the needle, but I see it differently. Our bottom 6 is no longer going to get completely outworked so that is going to be a big boost.

How the roster comes together is pretty exciting to me. Lots of parts and methods it seems. Pitlick, for me, is a nice add. He will chip in with secondary scoring. His career high is 15 goals playing with junk and doing it all by himself. Coleman always plays with a sense of urgency so that's a nice add for what has been a pretty vanilla team.

When Sutter calls someone out in the media, Lewis and Richardson can talk to the player. "Yes. This is what he does. Don't get mad at him, get mad at yourself. He's not lying".

Role players that know their role very well.

Size on D. No more stick checking. Punish. Nothing slows a forward down more than being aware that there's a heavy hitter on the ice.

As much as I don't see Gudbranson as a good add, I also have to wonder if Sutter has always been laughing at his usage. He wanted him here, so he likely sees something that I don't.

Finally, this team filled me full of spite last year with their pathetic levels of, "try".

Whining about it got tiring to the point that my give-a-crap-level was the same as theirs. But that's exhausting too.

So I've stopped whining and it's a new season to watch and hope that fixing the bottom 6, piling in Dmen and G prospects is a good start. Now our top 6 has a platform to stand on. If they falter, then it's time to address that.

I hope we've fixed a lot of the real problems now. Not long term solutions, but perhaps a better look at being a true 4 line team, built from the net out. Without skipping over the 3rd and 4th lines like we could just throw anyone there.

 

 

Good post

[kehatch]

9 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Historically we have gone into rebuilds after missing the playoffs more than one year in a row.

 

The Flames have only missed the playoffs in consecutive seasons twice since coming to Calgary. Both were long droughts of multi season misses.  Last time, it took 4 seasons of missed playoffs, a mostly retired Kipper, and an expiring Iginla for ownership to rebuild.  Even then, they avoided the term 'rebuild' as much as possible with Feaster using one of his made up words to make it sound like something else.  With an arena on the way and a young core, I think it will take more then a second season of missing the playoffs for the Flames to rebuild.  But who knows, if we lose Gaudreau, Tkachuk refuses to sign, and Monahan doesn't rebound that may fast track things.  

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Thanks kehatch for a NEW thread.lol

I voted rebuild if we have another year like last year.

But honestly, I think we have zoned in on some of the things that have really been hurting us.

Not much change to the core, but I'm not positive the core has been the problem.

A complete lack of 60 minutes of compete, no grit, no pushback, a team that always falls into a hole without the resilience to get out of it. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging they say. The team's composition never did that. "Have Ritchie beat someone up"...never mattered.

I like the adds, as residual as they seem. It will be the bottom 6 that keeps the entire roster up. So this is a retool to me. We've retooled our bottom 6, which was god awful. Most think it doesn't need move the needle, but I see it differently. Our bottom 6 is no longer going to get completely outworked so that is going to be a big boost.

How the roster comes together is pretty exciting to me. Lots of parts and methods it seems. Pitlick, for me, is a nice add. He will chip in with secondary scoring. His career high is 15 goals playing with junk and doing it all by himself. Coleman always plays with a sense of urgency so that's a nice add for what has been a pretty vanilla team.

When Sutter calls someone out in the media, Lewis and Richardson can talk to the player. "Yes. This is what he does. Don't get mad at him, get mad at yourself. He's not lying".

Role players that know their role very well.

Size on D. No more stick checking. Punish. Nothing slows a forward down more than being aware that there's a heavy hitter on the ice.

As much as I don't see Gudbranson as a good add, I also have to wonder if Sutter has always been laughing at his usage. He wanted him here, so he likely sees something that I don't.

Finally, this team filled me full of spite last year with their pathetic levels of, "try".

Whining about it got tiring to the point that my give-a-crap-level was the same as theirs. But that's exhausting too.

So I've stopped whining and it's a new season to watch and hope that fixing the bottom 6, piling in Dmen and G prospects is a good start. Now our top 6 has a platform to stand on. If they falter, then it's time to address that.

I hope we've fixed a lot of the real problems now. Not long term solutions, but perhaps a better look at being a true 4 line team, built from the net out. Without skipping over the 3rd and 4th lines like we could just throw anyone there.

 

 

Call me 'skeptically intrigued' about this season. 

 

On paper, we are worse.  We lost our captain and top D and our response was to use the cap to rebuild our bottom lines and pairings.  For a team with a lot of holes, and one where even the GM was promising core changes, that's lead to a big snicker across 31 fan bases (and a lot in fan base 32 as well).  

 

But I agree with you.  The rebuild of our depth was designed around a proven and elite coach who seems to have faith in the team.  If last years team played like a proper Sutter team for the full season then we would have made the playoffs.  The biggest issue with the Flames has been them underplaying and under achieving.  The coach and additions may give us the identity we need to right that ship.  

 

That said, a lot needs to go right.  The coach and additions need to have that positive impact.  A bunch of players need to rebound, including Markstrom, Monahan, and Tkachuk.  A young D or two need to step up.  And the Flames need to figure out where to find goals, because they certainly didn't bring any in this summer.  We also need to deal with our best players expiring contract.  

 

I really don't know what to expect from this team.  Best guess is they make the playoffs as a low seed.  But they could win the conference or be bottom 5 and neither would shock me.  

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

 

The Flames have only missed the playoffs in consecutive seasons twice since coming to Calgary. Both were long droughts of multi season misses.  Last time, it took 4 seasons of missed playoffs, a mostly retired Kipper, and an expiring Iginla for ownership to rebuild.  Even then, they avoided the term 'rebuild' as much as possible with Feaster using one of his made up words to make it sound like something else.  With an arena on the way and a young core, I think it will take more then a second season of missing the playoffs for the Flames to rebuild.  But who knows, if we lose Gaudreau, Tkachuk refuses to sign, and Monahan doesn't rebound that may fast track things.  

 

Well, maybe the truth i somewhere inbetween, looking back maybe we started the rebuild after playoff loss #3.   Then we proceeded to draft Sean Monahan which imho was our first rebuild pick.    

 

My arguement for after playoff #2 is that it started with drafting Jankowski.    Which, while it was a completely idiotic pick and much lower than a rebuild pick, was originally a pretty high pick that they traded down for.   But yes, we still had Iggie and Kipper at that time even though the writing was on the wall.

 

In any case, if you see it as picking in the top 10 to be the start of a rebuild, which can be the case depending on the makeup of your team, that can happen this upcoming season.  We may not have that makeup by age, but as you point out we do have it by contract.

 

 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Thanks kehatch for a NEW thread.lol

I voted rebuild if we have another year like last year.

But honestly, I think we have zoned in on some of the things that have really been hurting us.

Not much change to the core, but I'm not positive the core has been the problem.

A complete lack of 60 minutes of compete, no grit, no pushback, a team that always falls into a hole without the resilience to get out of it. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging they say. The team's composition never did that. "Have Ritchie beat someone up"...never mattered.

I like the adds, as residual as they seem. It will be the bottom 6 that keeps the entire roster up. So this is a retool to me. We've retooled our bottom 6, which was god awful. Most think it doesn't need move the needle, but I see it differently. Our bottom 6 is no longer going to get completely outworked so that is going to be a big boost.

How the roster comes together is pretty exciting to me. Lots of parts and methods it seems. Pitlick, for me, is a nice add. He will chip in with secondary scoring. His career high is 15 goals playing with junk and doing it all by himself. Coleman always plays with a sense of urgency so that's a nice add for what has been a pretty vanilla team.

When Sutter calls someone out in the media, Lewis and Richardson can talk to the player. "Yes. This is what he does. Don't get mad at him, get mad at yourself. He's not lying".

Role players that know their role very well.

Size on D. No more stick checking. Punish. Nothing slows a forward down more than being aware that there's a heavy hitter on the ice.

As much as I don't see Gudbranson as a good add, I also have to wonder if Sutter has always been laughing at his usage. He wanted him here, so he likely sees something that I don't.

Finally, this team filled me full of spite last year with their pathetic levels of, "try".

Whining about it got tiring to the point that my give-a-crap-level was the same as theirs. But that's exhausting too.

So I've stopped whining and it's a new season to watch and hope that fixing the bottom 6, piling in Dmen and G prospects is a good start. Now our top 6 has a platform to stand on. If they falter, then it's time to address that.

I hope we've fixed a lot of the real problems now. Not long term solutions, but perhaps a better look at being a true 4 line team, built from the net out. Without skipping over the 3rd and 4th lines like we could just throw anyone there.

 

 

Great post, great attitude, and great strategy.    

 

I'll save you my opinion of the likelihood of the Flames solving the issues you've identified.

 

I do agree there's no point in whining once the puck is dropped.  For me, I will stop whining once the regular season starts.   I'll remain supportive for an obligatory 20-30 games.    By trade deadline, I expect to be fully transitioned to honesty again unless they are a playoff team at that time.

 

But these next two draft years are not for fence sitting.   We are perfectly/horribly positioned to stock up and the team needs to present a really good reason not to.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

 

I think so.  

 

I think there is about a 0% chance the Flames go full rebuild. Last time ownership agreed to a rebuild we were well on our way to a fourth consecutive playoff miss.  Iginla was on an expiring contract, Kipper had all but retired, and they were out of options.  This time our core is young, since Gaudreau made the team we have made the playoffs 4 out of 7 seasons, and two of those misses were while we were still building.  With an arena on the way I can't see ownership agreeing to a rebuild unless something catastrophic comes up. 

 

But I do think there will could be significant changes.  Tkachuk, Mangiapane, and Gaudreau are all on expiring contracts, and Monahan only has one additional season.  That is a big chunk of the core and a big chunk of potential cap. If the Flames have a poor season, they will almost certainly make some big changes.  Especially if any of those guys aren't looking for a long term extension.  

 

That should be worth Bedard, imho 

 

I hate to say it but in some ways our reluctance to go full rebuild could actually ensure it.    We had a chance to trade some of those core players this year for prospects or longer contracts, at full value.   Will those players have full value next year, or even at trade deadline?   I would argue no to Gaudreau and Tkachuk.  There is actually a chance we get nothing in return for Gaudreau and this still didn't cause BT to act.   A Giordano repeat.

 

I think if we don't move those players or extend them or something before the start of their season, their trade value goes on accelerated decay.   Maybe not Monahan, but then again unless he shows a miraculous recovery after surgery, him too for health reasons.

 

For the record, that has the potential to leave us with nothing.     And if we miss the playoffs, the likelihood of that scenario goes up exponentially.   A full rebuild then becomes a certainty, despite Management's desires.

 

Nobody would have thought 2 years ago that we'd get nothing for Giordano.   I honestly think the Flames plan for all of this is literally to win big this year, and re-sign everyone.

 

.. we'll....see how that goes.

[zima]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

That should be worth Bedard, imho 

 

I hate to say it but in some ways our reluctance to go full rebuild could actually ensure it.    We had a chance to trade some of those core players this year for prospects or longer contracts, at full value.   Will those players have full value next year, or even at trade deadline?   I would argue no to Gaudreau and Tkachuk.  There is actually a chance we get nothing in return for Gaudreau and this still didn't cause BT to act.   A Giordano repeat.

 

I think if we don't move those players or extend them or something before the start of their season, their trade value goes on accelerated decay.   Maybe not Monahan, but then again unless he shows a miraculous recovery after surgery, him too for health reasons.

 

For the record, that has the potential to leave us with nothing.     And if we miss the playoffs, the likelihood of that scenario goes up exponentially.   A full rebuild then becomes a certainty, despite Management's desires.

 

Nobody would have thought 2 years ago that we'd get nothing for Giordano.   I honestly think the Flames plan for all of this is literally to win big this year, and re-sign everyone.

 

.. we'll....see how that goes.

Like I have said before we are looking at another 7 yr drought BT decided to give Gio away I don't believe there were no takers for Gio I find it hard to believe we couldn't put a package together with Gio kyl and perhaps a forward for a nice return any return for some players that could bring us a top 6 forward or top 4 Dman. Now were looking at nothing for Gio Kyl will sit on the side lines all winter along with a capable forward call me confused?

[jjgallow]

27 minutes ago, zima said:

Like I have said before we are looking at another 7 yr drought BT decided to give Gio away I don't believe there were no takers for Gio I find it hard to believe we couldn't put a package together with Gio kyl and perhaps a forward for a nice return any return for some players that could bring us a top 6 forward or top 4 Dman. Now were looking at nothing for Gio Kyl will sit on the side lines all winter along with a capable forward call me confused?

 

Coming up to the day of the expansion draft, I don't think there was much return for Gio.   but even a few months prior, such as trade deadline and any previous year, there was lots of return.    Lack of planning.

[cross16]

What I think they will do is they will stay the course. I read a lot into the fact that Treliving and Sutter both have contracts until 2023, it tells me that they are going to see this thing through until at least then. 

 

But even past that, i'm not sure I see a "rebuild" coming in the near future. I'm using this term in quotes to be intentional around what I'm defining as rebuild, which is the idea th they would tear this down, go to the draft and try to build this back up over a couple of season.

When I look at the core of this team now (Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Backs, Coleman, Mang, Hanifin, Anderson, Tanev, Markstrom) you have an average age of 27. The only reason the Flames "rebuilt" last time was they had to. Their core was all over the age of 30 and were all UFAs within a year or 2 of each other, which isn't the case here and not to mention it all started because Iginla told them he wasn't going to re sign here if the team wasn't going to be good. This is a bit of a semantical argument, but IMO the Flames never decided to rebuild, it was a situation they were forced into and even then they (being ownership) never did really embrace the idea. I don't see why that would change now after they've been operating this way for over 20 years. 

 

The x factor in all of this, and what will make this post age poorly, is Gaudreau. I believe he will get signed but if for whatever reason he doesn't then they could reach that point of no return sooner than I'm anticipating now. But with Gaudreau in the fold I believe they've got enough of a competitive core that it will never convince ownership that it needs to be broken apart and rebuilt via draft picks. 

 

In terms of changes to the core that player I would have my eye on is Tkachuk. It sounds like they listened to offers this off season but had a very high price tag (as they should) but pending how this season goes I could see those discussions becoming longer. 

 

As I said above this isn't what I would do, it's just what I think they will do. I think that core is good enough to bounce in and out of the playoffs here and there and that will be enough for ownership to believe they should keep adding and not be ok with the idea of multiple losing seasons. 

[jjgallow]

33 minutes ago, cross16 said:

This is a bit of a semantical argument, but IMO the Flames never decided to rebuild, it was a situation they were forced into and even then they (being ownership) never did really embrace the idea. I don't see why that would change now after they've been operating this way for over 20 years. 

 

Sorry to paraphrase, just...specifically this part, I think the answer is nothing.   Nothing will change.   The Flames won't decide to rebuild (which they should have).   They will be forced into it, as they have with their other rebuilds.

 

With regards to age, it entirely depends on how you choose to run the numbers.  The short answer to that is once we start picking in the top 10 (which we almost have), things become pretty clear.       No need to run age checks once that happens.

 

One of the key differences is quality.  You listed Mang is core.  That's a huge grey area.  That's like listing Byron as core in 2013.   Losing Iginla, what equivalent do we have to that now?   You listed younger core players now but none of them are at that level and never will be.  Except Gio, who we lost, and who's age wasn't counted.

It's the quality this time.   This is like a dead-cat-bounce roster from our last rebuild which we cut short early.

 

Most notably, the defence you listed, would not be considered core defence on literally any playoff team.   And there it is.  The crux of it.

 

Also Markstrom is no Kipper.  Markstrom is a rental who will finish this season at 32 years of age, hinting at decline last season.

[sak22]

8 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Sorry to paraphrase, just...specifically this part, I think the answer is nothing.   Nothing will change.   The Flames won't decide to rebuild (which they should have).   They will be forced into it, as they have with their other rebuilds.

 

With regards to age, it entirely depends on how you choose to run the numbers.  The short answer to that is once we start picking in the top 10 (which we almost have), things become pretty clear.       No need to run age checks once that happens.

 

One of the key differences is quality.  You listed Mang is core.  That's a huge grey area.  That's like listing Byron as core in 2013.   Losing Iginla, what equivalent do we have to that now?   You listed younger core players now but none of them are at that level and never will be.  Except Gio, who we lost, and who's age wasn't counted.

It's the quality this time.   This is like a dead-cat-bounce roster from our last rebuild which we cut short early.

 

Most notably, the defence you listed, would not be considered core defence on literally any playoff team.   And there it is.  The crux of it.

 

Also Markstrom is no Kipper.  Markstrom is a rental who will finish this season at 32 years of age, hinting at decline last season.

But math.  Paul Byron in 2013 was 24 and at that point had played less than 50 career games and had 4 career goals, in parts of 4 seasons he scored a total of 16 goals.  Mangiapane over the last 2 season which can be considered part seasons has scored 17 and 18 goals respectively, good chance of 20 goals in 2020 given he ended that year on a tear and potential for 25 this past year.  Very poor comparison.

[jjgallow]

26 minutes ago, sak22 said:

But math.  Paul Byron in 2013 was 24 and at that point had played less than 50 career games and had 4 career goals, in parts of 4 seasons he scored a total of 16 goals.  Mangiapane over the last 2 season which can be considered part seasons has scored 17 and 18 goals respectively, good chance of 20 goals in 2020 given he ended that year on a tear and potential for 25 this past year.  Very poor comparison.

 

I...guess, but that was just a really small part of my arguement?    Did you skip over the part about us not having any defense at all?

 

It's okay, everyone else seems to skip over that too and they can't understand our problems.

 

Byron was two years younger than Mangiapane so you can't just compare them straight up like that.   I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just such a miniscule part of the arguement, trying to compare two guys neither of which are clear core players.  It remains to be seen if Mangiapane ever scores 20 goals.  Based on last year it looks promising, meanwhile we know Byron had multiple 20 goal seasons....whatever.   Neither one are clear core players.

[sak22]

11 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I...guess, but that was just a really small part of my arguement?    Did you skip over the part about us not having any defense at all?

 

It's okay, everyone else seems to skip over that too and they can't understand our problems.

 

Byron was two years younger than Mangiapane so you can't just compare them straight up like that.   I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just such a miniscule part of the arguement, trying to compare two guys neither of which are clear core players.  It remains to be seen if Mangiapane ever scores 20 goals.  Based on last year it looks promising, meanwhile we know Byron had multiple 20 goal seasons....whatever.   Neither one are clear core players.

Basically yes.  It is all your opinion, and when you compare Paul Byron as a Flame as anything comparable to Mangiapane as a Flame I can't take the rest of your argument serious.

[jjgallow]

35 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Basically yes.  It is all your opinion, and when you compare Paul Byron as a Flame as anything comparable to Mangiapane as a Flame I can't take the rest of your argument serious.

 

 

Maybe you're right.  Maybe Mangiapane is about to emerge.    So far he's yet to have a 20 goal season, and his early 20's are over, but either way please don't blame me for only considering LW when you evaluate a team.   Mangiapane could score 40 goals next year and it will not change anything for us because LW is not our issue.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I...guess, but that was just a really small part of my arguement?    Did you skip over the part about us not having any defense at all?

 

It's okay, everyone else seems to skip over that too and they can't understand our problems.

 

Byron was two years younger than Mangiapane so you can't just compare them straight up like that.   I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just such a miniscule part of the arguement, trying to compare two guys neither of which are clear core players.  It remains to be seen if Mangiapane ever scores 20 goals.  Based on last year it looks promising, meanwhile we know Byron had multiple 20 goal seasons....whatever.   Neither one are clear core players.

 

 

I mean, we have 4 good to very good 2nd pairing defensemen. They'll have to play defence by committee, but I would like to give them a chance, since you know, being negative usually, I have a bit of optimism in the main 4 with hoping Valamaki can get there in the future to make it 5 good 2nd pairing D... 

 

If Hanifin and Tanev end up together, then that makes a very good pair. Or maybe you go back to Hanifin and Ras, but then have to play Tanev with Valamaki. Then you have Zadorov with Gudbransen. Yikes... 

 

There's a mix to be had there though... Play with them.

 

Hanifin, Tanev

Zadorov, Andersson

Valamaki, Gudbranson. 

Stone

[jjgallow]

18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I mean, we have 4 good to very good 2nd pairing defensemen. They'll have to play defence by committee, but I would like to give them a chance, since you know, being negative usually, I have a bit of optimism in the main 4 with hoping Valamaki can get there in the future to make it 5 good 2nd pairing D... 

 

If Hanifin and Tanev end up together, then that makes a very good pair. Or maybe you go back to Hanifin and Ras, but then have to play Tanev with Valamaki. Then you have Zadorov with Gudbransen. Yikes... 

 

There's a mix to be had there though... Play with them.

 

Hanifin, Tanev

Zadorov, Andersson

Valamaki, Gudbranson. 

Stone

 

Once the puck drops, it only makes sense to be optimistic, sure.

[jjgallow]

 

 

Thoughts on this?  I have mixed.

 

On thing....Sutter may need to rethink his cup plans and my guess is he already is.

 

I'm not sure whether Futa would be my pick.   But the idea of picking a guy who knows scouting, I like.

[pikey7883]

32 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

Thoughts on this?  I have mixed.

 

On thing....Sutter may need to rethink his cup plans and my guess is he already is.

 

I'm not sure whether Futa would be my pick.   But the idea of picking a guy who knows scouting, I like.

The only way this makes sense, is maybe moving BT to a president of hockey role, and then having Futa as GM, but this looks and sounds like click bait. Even with Sutter / Futa history.