The Sutter Impact

[cross16]

On 8/16/2021 at 6:35 AM, conundrumed said:

I believe regardless of all else, the Flames will be better under Sutter. The NHL was an aberration last year and a half to the point where I really wish that I didn't bother with it.

There are no kid gloves with Sutter. I get the argument that he's not here for a rebuild. I think what he's here for is to see what this team actually is if they'd show any sign of consistency every game. I know he'll accomplish that one way or the other.

I think the Sutter hire is the last, end of the rope hiring. Mgmt believes it's a good roster, but it needs a constant kick in the aphids.

Sutter is the kick. If it's more of the same, I believe it will be a full on rebuild.

I trust Sutter won't let happen what we've all been seeing.

He saw a better roster than the product on the ice, or why would he bother?

So I have to have faith in that.

I just hope Ruzicka can be our 4C rather than Gawdin. I don't see NHL upside in Gawdin, just too slow.

I also believe Dube will be attached at the hip with Mony, and Mangia will be Backlund's LW for more balance.

The bottom 6 should be fairly improved for chipping in.

D is D. You don't need the class of the NHL D when you drill into the fwds the right way to play responsible hockey.

Many call it boring, I disagree. Play the right way, be accountable or have a seat.

 

I am in agreement with almost all of this. By no mean am I going to suggest the Flames are a contender but I do think they are much better this year than last. The individual impact under Sutter is interesting and worth looking at, but i'd rather look at the impact he had on the team. 

 

5 on 5 rankings after they hired Sutter:

Corsi F% - 2nd (up from 9th under Ward)

Shots F% - 8th (up from 20th under Ward)

Expected goals against - 2nd only to Colorado. (up from 13th under Ward)

Expected goals F% - 3rd (up from 10th under Ward)

Scoring chances F% - 3rd  (up from 14th)

High Danger chances F% - 3rd (up from 16th)

 

This also ignores the trend under Ward. The Flames started relatively strong and then were plummeting. The jump is more drastic is you highlight the last 10 games under Ward. to be fair and clear this is not intended to blame Ward it's just to show that Sutter had a large impact. 

 

It didn't relate to the record mostly due to goaltending and the PP. We talk about the lack of goal scoring but at 5 on 5 I actually think they were ok, especially once Sutter stopped trying to force guys like Ritchie into top 6 roles. I think the offence with be fine at 5 on 5 because Coleman is a great add and I'm with you that Dube will break out this year. It's figuring out the PP that is really key for the Flames to determine how much success they want to have. 

 

Goaltending is the 2nd piece but put me in the camp that Markstrom comes back stronger this year. Injuries, COVID year, new team, coach change  etc. If you want to say that's all excuses that's fine but for me those are reasons and they are legitimate so I'm expecting a stronger year and if they get even league avg goaltending with those underlying numbers it's going to lead to quite a few wins. 

[conundrumed]

Markstrom's fine. Putting heat on him boils me. He was outstanding until, "Jesus Christ I can't do this alone".

He thought he came to a good team, not a no effort, asleep at the wheel nightmare.

But I digress...

Gaudreau has to take ownership of this team. Not sure how else to describe it.

Johnny, you aren't Patty Kane. He doesn't whine, constantly.

Cut that Satoshi Nakamoto out. Nor does he try to be a 1 man wrecking crew when he's frustrated.

We need JG to take a maturity step, and ownership of this team.

In my honest opinion.

This club trended to needing a Sutter. I'd say their choice.

Well, you've got one. Good luck.

[jjgallow]

13 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Markstrom's fine. Putting heat on him boils me. He was outstanding until, "Jesus Christ I can't do this alone".

He thought he came to a good team, not a no effort, asleep at the wheel nightmare.

But I digress...

Gaudreau has to take ownership of this team. Not sure how else to describe it.

Johnny, you aren't Patty Kane. He doesn't whine, constantly.

Cut that Satoshi Nakamoto out. Nor does he try to be a 1 man wrecking crew when he's frustrated.

We need JG to take a maturity step, and ownership of this team.

In my honest opinion.

This club trended to needing a Sutter. I'd say their choice.

Well, you've got one. Good luck.

 

As much as I bash the Markstrom move, I do agree that our problems run deeper than goaltending.

 

If we had Vasilevsky in our net we would not be an instant contender by any stretch of the imagination.   Do I want a Vasilevsky type in net?   That's a yes.

 

But all it is, is a foundation.   Without actual defencemen, without responsible forwards, without a system and work eithic, you're hooped.   Sutter will help with the system and work eithic part.

[rickross]

Ah..I just don’t see this team as much improved yet. Yes they’ve made some changes but mostly lateral moves. I just don’t see Zadorov or Coleman making us incrementally an improved team. Sitter should produce better results then Ward but I still don’t think we’re there just yet. We have some upcoming prospects who could surprise us but I wouldn’t want to depend on them making that next step.  End of the day this team as it stands is still middling. Acquiring Eichel might help but we’d be losing a lot of assets in doing so. BT has a chance to reset the core within the next 1-2 years, not saying to blow it up, but the current group hasn’t gotten it done. 

 

[travel_dude]

24 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Markstrom's fine. Putting heat on him boils me. He was outstanding until, "Jesus Christ I can't do this alone".

He thought he came to a good team, not a no effort, asleep at the wheel nightmare.

But I digress...

Gaudreau has to take ownership of this team. Not sure how else to describe it.

Johnny, you aren't Patty Kane. He doesn't whine, constantly.

Cut that Satoshi Nakamoto out. Nor does he try to be a 1 man wrecking crew when he's frustrated.

We need JG to take a maturity step, and ownership of this team.

In my honest opinion.

This club trended to needing a Sutter. I'd say their choice.

Well, you've got one. Good luck.

 

His desire to win makes him a weapon, but his attitude when things go sideways is a problem no doubt.

And that is something Sutter can work on.

We know he has the ability to take the puck to the net but will pass off at most times.

Whether there is a play or not.

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, rickross said:

Ah..I just don’t see this team as much improved yet. Yes they’ve made some changes but mostly lateral moves. I just don’t see Zadorov or Coleman making us incrementally an improved team. Sitter should produce better results then Ward but I still don’t think we’re there just yet. We have some upcoming prospects who could surprise us but I wouldn’t want to depend on them making that next step.  End of the day this team as it stands is still middling. Acquiring Eichel might help but we’d be losing a lot of assets in doing so. BT has a chance to reset the core within the next 1-2 years, not saying to blow it up, but the current group hasn’t gotten it done. 

 

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that this is the team that will start in October.

BT knows the issues and has his plans to reset the core.

We don't know what that looks like, as there are some things in play that won't be know until they happen or the season starts.

 

Coleman is more of a change than you expect.

With no other changes, he adds a top 6 talent and Mangiapane dog mentality to the top 6.

We had nothing like that in the last 4 years.

Zadorov doesn't replace Gio, he's more of a nasty version of Stone.

Even when we had Gio-Brodie, we had trouble with big forwards running the goalie or losing battles in front of the net.

 

As it stands today, we are a playoff capable team but not a contender.

Moves from the core have to be done to improve the team.

Trading for Eichel makes sense if you are trading one of the core to do it and you aren't robbing the entire future.

We need some better depth in the bottom 6 and a RD to add into the mix.

I like some of our prospects, but the best may not be ready yet or we may lose one of them in a trade.

 

We don't become a contender overnight.  It's incremental.

We had to replace Gio at some point, so move towards that.

We need scoring from the bottom 6, so start to improve that.

4 lines of scoring and from the D is what winners have.

[rickross]

45 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that this is the team that will start in October.

BT knows the issues and has his plans to reset the core.

We don't know what that looks like, as there are some things in play that won't be know until they happen or the season starts.

 

Coleman is more of a change than you expect.

With no other changes, he adds a top 6 talent and Mangiapane dog mentality to the top 6.

We had nothing like that in the last 4 years.

Zadorov doesn't replace Gio, he's more of a nasty version of Stone.

Even when we had Gio-Brodie, we had trouble with big forwards running the goalie or losing battles in front of the net.

 

As it stands today, we are a playoff capable team but not a contender.

Moves from the core have to be done to improve the team.

Trading for Eichel makes sense if you are trading one of the core to do it and you aren't robbing the entire future.

We need some better depth in the bottom 6 and a RD to add into the mix.

I like some of our prospects, but the best may not be ready yet or we may lose one of them in a trade.

 

We don't become a contender overnight.  It's incremental.

We had to replace Gio at some point, so move towards that.

We need scoring from the bottom 6, so start to improve that.

4 lines of scoring and from the D is what winners have.

I’m a bit concerned BT goes after Eichel with an aggressive offer that would cap our future..Sabres will make sure they get a nice haul. Hopefully it’s nothing that mortgages the next 5 yrs but with BT in the hot seat he’s going to need a big move. 
 

I like Coleman I just think he’s more of a complimentary piece as opposed to someone who drives the play. Zadorov will bring size and grit but he’s no all star by any means. 
 

I agree this won’t happen overnight but we all know Sutter isn’t here to entertain any kind of rebuild so the time is now. Sutter has 2 more years as our HC. Is that enough time?…with what we have?

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, rickross said:

I’m a bit concerned BT goes after Eichel with an aggressive offer that would cap our future..Sabres will make sure they get a nice haul. Hopefully it’s nothing that mortgages the next 5 yrs but with BT in the hot seat he’s going to need a big move. 
 

I like Coleman I just think he’s more of a complimentary piece as opposed to someone who drives the play. Zadorov will bring size and grit but he’s no all star by any means. 
 

I agree this won’t happen overnight but we all know Sutter isn’t here to entertain any kind of rebuild so the time is now. Sutter has 2 more years as our HC. Is that enough time?…with what we have?

 

What he's offered and what he's willing to offer are probably not a lot different.

You don't give up a guy you think will be a top 3 player in a couple of year.

You might add a player that you think needs to be moved out.

A 1st rounder impacts us for sure.

Including a Tkachuk or Monahan impacts us, but they are perhaps included because they are holding back the team.

 

Coleman is a complementary piece to a team like Tampa last year, because they had enough top 6 to ice a killer squad.

Today's Tampa would have him in the top 6.

 

Sutter, IMHO, is a builder for this team.  He may not be the coach after 2 years, but will have set the direction by then.

If it's the wrong direction, then we go into a rebuild/retool, but we will see it sooner than when he is done.

There has to be incremental improvements this and next year, or the TDL will see a lot of movement.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Markstrom's fine. Putting heat on him boils me. He was outstanding until, "Jesus Christ I can't do this alone".

He thought he came to a good team, not a no effort, asleep at the wheel nightmare.

But I digress...

Gaudreau has to take ownership of this team. Not sure how else to describe it.

Johnny, you aren't Patty Kane. He doesn't whine, constantly.

Cut that Satoshi Nakamoto out. Nor does he try to be a 1 man wrecking crew when he's frustrated.

We need JG to take a maturity step, and ownership of this team.

In my honest opinion.

This club trended to needing a Sutter. I'd say their choice.

Well, you've got one. Good luck.

In all fairness I think  JG has one of the most noticeable improvements once Sutter took over.  On the surface he doesnt seem like a Sutter type but he really stepped up after the change. Maybe thats the type of coaching he needs, maybe the style gave him more playing room, may he was more rested with a little less ice time.   It may not be a "drag the team into battle" in the traditional sense but he ended up doing what he does best, putting points on the board.

[robrob74]

I am late to the conversation but what we saw with Ward, he gave a lot of ice time to Backlund and Lindholm. By limiting their ice or dropping a few minutes off of their play, it will give them more energy to defend late in games. If they’re going to be your best defenders, they need the energy to finish off a close game. 
 

since we will be in a lot of close games, this is a must.

[cross16]

18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I am late to the conversation but what we saw with Ward, he gave a lot of ice time to Backlund and Lindholm. By limiting their ice or dropping a few minutes off of their play, it will give them more energy to defend late in games. If they’re going to be your best defenders, they need the energy to finish off a close game. 
 

since we will be in a lot of close games, this is a must.

 

In addition to this adding Coleman and Pitlick deepen our the roster and provide more flexibility with lineups and matchups. An issue that got really exposed when Sutter came up is that he did not have a bottom 6 he could trust with any type of important minutes so he was limited with lineup deployment. 

 

Not a move the needle type of scenario but the types of players they identified and brought in at F are going to really  help Sutter balance out his lines and run the team the way he wants. 

[jjgallow]

 

 

Does this count as a smile?

[kehatch]

On 8/17/2021 at 12:29 PM, cross16 said:

 

In addition to this adding Coleman and Pitlick deepen our the roster and provide more flexibility with lineups and matchups. An issue that got really exposed when Sutter came up is that he did not have a bottom 6 he could trust with any type of important minutes so he was limited with lineup deployment. 

 

Not a move the needle type of scenario but the types of players they identified and brought in at F are going to really  help Sutter balance out his lines and run the team the way he wants. 

 

Sutter's approach to building a team is simple.  He wants his team to work harder then the other team, hit more then the other team, and be more committed to defense then the other team.  The players he desires reflect that. That isn't to say he doesn't want skill players on the roster (he does) but they don't define the identity of his team. 

 

Treliving is more analytical.  He is focused on filling a hole, acquiring depth, analyzing long term cap projections, balancing his futures, etc.  When he does go after a player it is either a big ticket guy to plug a specific hole, its a depth guy, or its a potential future.  

 

What I am seeing for the first time from Treliving is he is acquiring players with an identity and culture in mind, and its focused on the type of game his coach wants to play.  And I think that actually does move the needle.  Coleman and Pitlick are good examples, but I think Lewis and Zadarov are as well.    

 

Change nothing, if the 2020/21 Flames worked harder then the other team while committing to a D first system, then we make the playoffs and potentially win a round or three. I think adding 4 (20% of the roster) players that are committed and you have a good start.  Add a full camp with Sutter and maybe they come out with the identity the coach is looking for.  

 

I remain skeptical on the overall results though.  Sutter's style revolves around G>D>C complimented by forechecking physical wingers.  Maybe Markstrom rebounds, but our D is lacking at the top and bottom end, and our C is just meh.  That said, if they can commit to Sutter hockey the team is going to be fun to watch and cheer for, and that at least will make the season worth watching.  

[pikey7883]

13 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Sutter's approach to building a team is simple.  He wants his team to work harder then the other team, hit more then the other team, and be more committed to defense then the other team.  The players he desires reflect that. That isn't to say he doesn't want skill players on the roster (he does) but they don't define the identity of his team. 

 

Treliving is more analytical.  He is focused on filling a hole, acquiring depth, analyzing long term cap projections, balancing his futures, etc.  When he does go after a player it is either a big ticket guy to plug a specific hole, its a depth guy, or its a potential future.  

 

What I am seeing for the first time from Treliving is he is acquiring players with an identity and culture in mind, and its focused on the type of game his coach wants to play.  And I think that actually does move the needle.  Coleman and Pitlick are good examples, but I think Lewis and Zadarov are as well.    

 

Change nothing, if the 2020/21 Flames worked harder then the other team while committing to a D first system, then we make the playoffs and potentially win a round or three. I think adding 4 (20% of the roster) players that are committed and you have a good start.  Add a full camp with Sutter and maybe they come out with the identity the coach is looking for.  

 

I remain skeptical on the overall results though.  Sutter's style revolves around G>D>C complimented by forechecking physical wingers.  Maybe Markstrom rebounds, but our D is lacking at the top and bottom end, and our C is just meh.  That said, if they can commit to Sutter hockey the team is going to be fun to watch and cheer for, and that at least will make the season worth watching.  

I agree with everything you said, but wanted to add to the bolder. I believe that Tree has been building a culture through the draft for a while, and though most don’t agree with the picks that he has made. They all scream the same thing. Consistent, hard working players, who have been leaders on their teams and in the rooms, and play with their heart on their sleeve. It started with Mang and Ras, then Dube, now Pelltier and Zary, most recently Coronato. They are all very similar players and are creating a culture. He has now added some older vets who are cut from the same cloth to reinforce that, with Tanev and Coleman. I know that you can’t build an entire team out of these guys, but  IMO he has had a plan for awhile. 

[cross16]

39 minutes ago, pikey7883 said:

I agree with everything you said, but wanted to add to the bolder. I believe that Tree has been building a culture through the draft for a while, and though most don’t agree with the picks that he has made. They all scream the same thing. Consistent, hard working players, who have been leaders on their teams and in the rooms, and play with their heart on their sleeve. It started with Mang and Ras, then Dube, now Pelltier and Zary, most recently Coronato. They are all very similar players and are creating a culture. He has now added some older vets who are cut from the same cloth to reinforce that, with Tanev and Coleman. I know that you can’t build an entire team out of these guys, but  IMO he has had a plan for awhile. 

 

I agree with this. I've never understand the "Treliving isn't building an identity" I think he has been the whole time, he just didn't build the type of team some fans want. I think the blueprint Treliving was following was Tampa. Build a team that relies on speed, transition play, puck possession, smarts and competiveness. A team that didn't need to necessarily be big and physical because they would be tough to play against by being hard to contain, and we say this in 2019. Obviously didn't get to the end goal they wanted, for a variety of reasons I think, but I think the type of team he was trying to build was along those lines. 

 

They've just pivoted IMO and obviously are building a team to match what will make Sutter's hockey work but I don't think that means there wasn't an identity here before. I just don't think it was the identity many fans relate to or would prefer to see. 

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I agree with this. I've never understand the "Treliving isn't building an identity" I think he has been the whole time, he just didn't build the type of team some fans want. I think the blueprint Treliving was following was Tampa. Build a team that relies on speed, transition play, puck possession, smarts and competiveness. A team that didn't need to necessarily be big and physical because they would be tough to play against by being hard to contain, and we say this in 2019. Obviously didn't get to the end goal they wanted, for a variety of reasons I think, but I think the type of team he was trying to build was along those lines. 

 

They've just pivoted IMO and obviously are building a team to match what will make Sutter's hockey work but I don't think that means there wasn't an identity here before. I just don't think it was the identity many fans relate to or would prefer to see. 

 

Maybe Sutter continues down the path of "what worked in LA" or he adjusts a bit for the 2020's.  

If the team was truly just a Sutter team, then the recent signings make sense but Gaudreau and Dube will be gone.

I do think some conversations about what BT is building and what he expects Sutter to do will happen.

For instance, does Sutter need more bottom 6 grit or speed and tenacity.

 

Could be just me though.

[cross16]

19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Maybe Sutter continues down the path of "what worked in LA" or he adjusts a bit for the 2020's.  

If the team was truly just a Sutter team, then the recent signings make sense but Gaudreau and Dube will be gone.

I do think some conversations about what BT is building and what he expects Sutter to do will happen.

For instance, does Sutter need more bottom 6 grit or speed and tenacity.

 

Could be just me though.

 

I think this is a common misconception with Sutter. He has no problem with skill players, shorter players or players that are on the "softer" side so long as they execute their responsibilities at both ends of the ice and work hard. Remember Sutter acquired, and coached, the likes of Steve Reinprecht, Huselius, Tanguay, Vincent Damphouse, Patrick Marleau etc etc etc. 

 

I've said this before but I actually think Gaudreau could reach another level under Sutter so long as he buys in, which I think he was doing by the end of the season. 

[kehatch]

11 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I agree with this. I've never understand the "Treliving isn't building an identity" I think he has been the whole time, he just didn't build the type of team some fans want. 

 

I picture Treliving and Sutter in a board room together making a game plan for the off season. 

 

Treliving grabs a whiteboard marker and heads to the front. He writes a depth chart at each position that includes his depth in the minors. Next to each name is the Flames version of the WAR score, the contract term, and the cap. At the very bottom are the picks and prospects in the system, and he has lines shooting off to the right indicating the long term depth chart, cap, and futures situation. Once he has all of that he grabs the red marker and starts circling the positions where the team is weak, and a green marker where we have extra assets. Now he is ready to make his plan.

 

Meanwhile Darryl is chanting the Sutter mumble and rocking back and forth in his chair. As soon as Treliving leaves the room he clears the board and starts from scratch.

 

"Do I have a starter, okay. Who is this Vlader guy? No idea, whatever I will start Markstrom every night anyway. Let's look at the D. Who do I have clearing the crease and beating up the forwards? Who is moving the puck. Do I have Ca who can take the face offs and shut down the other team? Do I have enough forecheckers on the wing to send in the Sutter waves?" 

 

Meanwhile, his red marker is putting the names up that that includes guys that make too many mistakes, won't play D, won't work hard, etc. At no point is he putting up a depth chart and circling the RW (there aren't LW/RW anyway, just wingers). Z

 

Treliving is interested in filling the top RW spot while projecting cap interest, Sutter is more interested in having the right types of players to compliment the identity of the team he wants. 

 

I get Tre has an identity in his head and I agree it's the Tampa mold. But his actions haven't shown that, nor had the type of players he acquires. But this off season there is absolutely a theme to his transactions, and it compliments his coaches style. 

[rickross]

I think it’s a trap to model your own team under someone else’s philosophy. Never really understood why teams chase another teams identify and philosophy instead of developing their own. It’s just a bizarre idea to me, to simply mimic and replicate instead of forging your own path and create your own identity organically. 
 

I do agree Sutter will bring his own style and philosophy as opposed to Tre’s focus of chasing other teams models for success or following what the analytics/pundits are saying. This is why Stevie Y has been so successful, his Tampa model worked because it was his own and you already see what he’s been doing in Detroit. 
 

Right now we’re all just hoping the Sutter model translates into today’s game. We’d all love a repeat off 2004 (crazy to think that was almost 18 yrs ago!) but the game is different now and this team is still in the stages of developing its identity. 
 

Hopefully the combination of Treliving and Sutter finds success, it’d be nice for teams to be chasing the Flames’ model for once.

[cross16]

12 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I picture Treliving and Sutter in a board room together making a game plan for the off season. 

 

Treliving grabs a whiteboard marker and heads to the front. He writes a depth chart at each position that includes his depth in the minors. Next to each name is the Flames version of the WAR score, the contract term, and the cap. At the very bottom are the picks and prospects in the system, and he has lines shooting off to the right indicating the long term depth chart, cap, and futures situation. Once he has all of that he grabs the red marker and starts circling the positions where the team is weak, and a green marker where we have extra assets. Now he is ready to make his plan.

 

Meanwhile Darryl is chanting the Sutter mumble and rocking back and forth in his chair. As soon as Treliving leaves the room he clears the board and starts from scratch.

 

"Do I have a starter, okay. Who is this Vlader guy? No idea, whatever I will start Markstrom every night anyway. Let's look at the D. Who do I have clearing the crease and beating up the forwards? Who is moving the puck. Do I have Ca who can take the face offs and shut down the other team? Do I have enough forecheckers on the wing to send in the Sutter waves?" 

 

Meanwhile, his red marker is putting the names up that that includes guys that make too many mistakes, won't play D, won't work hard, etc. At no point is he putting up a depth chart and circling the RW (there aren't LW/RW anyway, just wingers). Z

 

Treliving is interested in filling the top RW spot while projecting cap interest, Sutter is more interested in having the right types of players to compliment the identity of the team he wants. 

 

I get Tre has an identity in his head and I agree it's the Tampa mold. But his actions haven't shown that, nor had the type of players he acquires. But this off season there is absolutely a theme to his transactions, and it compliments his coaches style. 

I don’t see how his actions haven’t shown that but guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. But other than Zadarov have things changed that much this off-season? For me Zadarov is the only one that stands out to me as a player I don’t think Treliving would have been interested in unless Sutter was here. Pitlick and Coleman both fit the mold of the style of player they’ve liked for a while. 
There’s been a bit of a pivot, which I have no problem with, but I just don’t think it’s drastic. 

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I don’t see how his actions haven’t shown that but guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. But other than Zadarov have things changed that much this off-season? For me Zadarov is the only one that stands out to me as a player I don’t think Treliving would have been interested in unless Sutter was here. Pitlick and Coleman both fit the mold of the style of player they’ve liked for a while. 
There’s been a bit of a pivot, which I have no problem with, but I just don’t think it’s drastic. 

 

I agree with you that Treliving is likely thinking 'Tampa Bay' when building the Flames.  But I would suggest two things. 

 

First, I think a good GM (or coach for that matter) works with what he has.  We may be chasing the Tampa identity, but they are a team that is built around star power with arguably the best goalie, best D, and best winger in the NHL.  They are an offensive juggernaut and are deep at every position.  They got that way with a bunch of top 5 picks, a heavy investment in drafting, and then followed it up with some savvy GM and development work.   

 

Second, his transactions haven't reflected him building that type of team. At least not to me.  They have been about filling a positional need rather then acquiring a specific type of player. 

 

• A series of transactions attempting to find a starting goalie (Elliott, Smith, Markstrom, Hiller, Ramo)
• A series of transactions attempting to find a top line RW (Frolik, Neal, Brouwer, Lindholm)
• A series of transactions attempting to add top 4 D (Hanafin, Hamilton, Hamonic, Tanev)
• A series of coaching hires (Gulutzun, Peters, Ward, Sutter)
• A bunch of depth moves

 

I am not seeing  a theme among the players and coaches he has hired, except repeated attempts to fill the same position.  Further, our top forwards remain in tact and don't really fit the identity.  

 

I like Treliving.  He doesn't lose to many trades, is great at managing the cap, has done a good job locking the core in at value, drafts well, and the times he has got into trouble he has managed to get himself out.  But I don't think he has been able to construct a team with an identity.  And I think that is reflected in how they play (how many times have fans/media had the conversation re what are the Calgary Flames?)  If we are supposed to be a speed and possession team like Tampa, then he has failed at building it.  

 

It just feels different to me now.  He has gone with a lunch pail coach which is a more realistic approach for our roster, and this summer has been focused on bringing on the kinds of players that complement that coach.  It hasn't been huge yet, and it won't be until we see a core move or two, but I think its a step in that direction.  Guess we will see. 

[cross16]

26 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

I agree with you that Treliving is likely thinking 'Tampa Bay' when building the Flames.  But I would suggest two things. 

 

First, I think a good GM (or coach for that matter) works with what he has.  We may be chasing the Tampa identity, but they are a team that is built around star power with arguably the best goalie, best D, and best winger in the NHL.  They are an offensive juggernaut and are deep at every position.  They got that way with a bunch of top 5 picks, a heavy investment in drafting, and then followed it up with some savvy GM and development work.   

 

Second, his transactions haven't reflected him building that type of team. At least not to me.  They have been about filling a positional need rather then acquiring a specific type of player. 

 

• A series of transactions attempting to find a starting goalie (Elliott, Smith, Markstrom, Hiller, Ramo)
• A series of transactions attempting to find a top line RW (Frolik, Neal, Brouwer, Lindholm)
• A series of transactions attempting to add top 4 D (Hanafin, Hamilton, Hamonic, Tanev)
• A series of coaching hires (Gulutzun, Peters, Ward, Sutter)
• A bunch of depth moves

 

I am not seeing  a theme among the players and coaches he has hired, except repeated attempts to fill the same position.  Further, our top forwards remain in tact and don't really fit the identity.  

 

I like Treliving.  He doesn't lose to many trades, is great at managing the cap, has done a good job locking the core in at value, drafts well, and the times he has got into trouble he has managed to get himself out.  But I don't think he has been able to construct a team with an identity.  And I think that is reflected in how they play (how many times have fans/media had the conversation re what are the Calgary Flames?)  If we are supposed to be a speed and possession team like Tampa, then he has failed at building it.  

 

It just feels different to me now.  He has gone with a lunch pail coach which is a more realistic approach for our roster, and this summer has been focused on bringing on the kinds of players that complement that coach.  It hasn't been huge yet, and it won't be until we see a core move or two, but I think its a step in that direction.  Guess we will see. 

i don’t disagree it hasn’t worked, that’s pretty clear, but for me it isn’t because of what you listed above. That’s very typical GM work you listed in terms of filling positions. To me it didn’t work out because they went in on Monahan as a number one center, and Gaudreau as a franchise player. Not having a number 1 goalie or someone capable of even playing that role for even a stretch hasn’t helped either. 
Again I do agree there is a change but if the Flames weren’t going to rebuild there had to be one. You can’t create a Tampa like identity without high end skill and the flames don’t have the high end skill to do it. How they are constructing the roster now is the only way they have a shot without a rebuild. 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

I don’t see how his actions haven’t shown that but guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. But other than Zadarov have things changed that much this off-season? For me Zadarov is the only one that stands out to me as a player I don’t think Treliving would have been interested in unless Sutter was here. Pitlick and Coleman both fit the mold of the style of player they’ve liked for a while. 
There’s been a bit of a pivot, which I have no problem with, but I just don’t think it’s drastic. 

 

I dunno! I think BT would be interested. He’s always shown the desire to have a designated tough guy and has gone out of his way to sign guys like Zadorov. Only this time it is a D that can actually play instead of a non-NHLer. I also think BT has shown to sign guys like him. He went after Forbort for a playoff push and toughness. He keeps signing Stone for that type of depth on D.

 

BT has his style which you’ve pointed out. but has always gone a little toughness for the times that we need toughness. Lucic is one thing and in F, but we lacked the toughness on D. I’d even go so far as to say Hamonic is maybe a similar player but with a bit more offensive to his game. 

[kehatch]

17 minutes ago, cross16 said:

i don’t disagree it hasn’t worked, that’s pretty clear, but for me it isn’t because of what you listed above. That’s very typical GM work you listed in terms of filling positions. To me it didn’t work out because they went in on Monahan as a number one center, and Gaudreau as a franchise player. Not having a number 1 goalie or someone capable of even playing that role for even a stretch hasn’t helped either. 
Again I do agree there is a change but if the Flames weren’t going to rebuild there had to be one. You can’t create a Tampa like identity without high end skill and the flames don’t have the high end skill to do it. How they are constructing the roster now is the only way they have a shot without a rebuild. 

 

It is because of the reasons above though.  If Treliving was interested in building to an identity he wouldn't have spent half a decade trying to find a RW to compliment a top line that had neither the skill or style of play to fit the team he was supposedly trying to build. He wouldn't have been playing the top 4D and goalie roulette every season while leaving his mismatched forward core alone.  He wouldn't have been hiring a different style of coach every other year, especially when half of them didn't have the experience or personality to instill an appropriate team culture.  

[jjgallow]

16 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I picture Treliving and Sutter in a board room together making a game plan for the off season. 

 

Treliving grabs a whiteboard marker and heads to the front. He writes a depth chart at each position that includes his depth in the minors. Next to each name is the Flames version of the WAR score, the contract term, and the cap. At the very bottom are the picks and prospects in the system, and he has lines shooting off to the right indicating the long term depth chart, cap, and futures situation. Once he has all of that he grabs the red marker and starts circling the positions where the team is weak, and a green marker where we have extra assets. Now he is ready to make his plan.

 

Meanwhile Darryl is chanting the Sutter mumble and rocking back and forth in his chair. As soon as Treliving leaves the room he clears the board and starts from scratch.

 

"Do I have a starter, okay. Who is this Vlader guy? No idea, whatever I will start Markstrom every night anyway. Let's look at the D. Who do I have clearing the crease and beating up the forwards? Who is moving the puck. Do I have Ca who can take the face offs and shut down the other team? Do I have enough forecheckers on the wing to send in the Sutter waves?" 

 

Meanwhile, his red marker is putting the names up that that includes guys that make too many mistakes, won't play D, won't work hard, etc. At no point is he putting up a depth chart and circling the RW (there aren't LW/RW anyway, just wingers). Z

 

Treliving is interested in filling the top RW spot while projecting cap interest, Sutter is more interested in having the right types of players to compliment the identity of the team he wants. 

 

I get Tre has an identity in his head and I agree it's the Tampa mold. But his actions haven't shown that, nor had the type of players he acquires. But this off season there is absolutely a theme to his transactions, and it compliments his coaches style. 

 

I agree with this and I think your picture of their discussions is almost exactly that.

 

An example, do we need a RW?  yes.    Do we need a top RD?   Way more.  And an actual D.

 

I side with Sutter between these two styles.  Without any doubt he puts a better hockey club together next season than Treliving would.

 

But....   there is a reason Sutter's not GM.  We've tried that.   And since he's come in we've lost a good number of draft picks already.   Sutter will improve the team in some ways now, but imho it won't be enough, and each of these role acquisitions is further depleting an almost empty pipeline.   It makes me sad to see those 2022 draft picks go, and I think we are all going to be a lot sadder a year from now.

 

We need a GM that is as good of a GM as Sutter is a coach.