2021 Offseason Thread

[pikey7883]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

They had Kylington on the Fan today and they asked him if Sutter gave him any advice. Kylington said that he told him to be ready and in game shape, ready to bring what he is able to bring. There wasn't much more than that. 

 

I honestly think his biggest issue is that he's a passive player. I think he has the tools to play, but needs to be assertive. Maybe it's the fact he's such a good skater he doesn't look like he's trying. But I just think he should play a faster game for being a faster player. Maybe your suggestion of trying him at forward could get him to do that? 

I wonder if he could play with Zad, who is pretty defensively responsible in his end, and Shills speed would be able to get them out of trouble if they needed. Could be risky, or could work out pretty good. If they get 10-15 minutes a night, you can balance everything else out with Hanny and Ras (22-25) and Val with Tanev for another 22-25

[travel_dude]

14 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

They had Kylington on the Fan today and they asked him if Sutter gave him any advice. Kylington said that he told him to be ready and in game shape, ready to bring what he is able to bring. There wasn't much more than that. 

 

I honestly think his biggest issue is that he's a passive player. I think he has the tools to play, but needs to be assertive. Maybe it's the fact he's such a good skater he doesn't look like he's trying. But I just think he should play a faster game for being a faster player. Maybe your suggestion of trying him at forward could get him to do that? 

 

I would refer to it as a tentative player.  Overthinks it, and as a result is handcuffed. 

I've seen a few instances where he was thinking about pinching.

He half commits.  And then the puck is past him.

No, he's rarely beat back to his own net, but the guy he played with was nowhere in position.

Can't have two guys thinking pinch.

 

That's part of the problem when you go with a 7th D-man.

Not enough knowing your partner and being able to talk.

The age and experience level suggests that we should pair a vet with a young-un.

And keep to the side they are best at.

Tanev with Valimaki or Ras.

Zarodov with Valimaki or Ras.

Hanifin is pretty close to being a vet, so I think you either use him with Tanev or Ras.

 

Hainifin-Tanev was golden last year.

Hanifin-Ras was really good in the playoffs the Covid year.

Conventional wisdom would suggest that Tanev should play with a mobile partner with good skating.

 

Okay, so I'm going in circles here.

It makes more sense to use Kylington with Zadorov or Tanev.

That means either:

Option 1

Hanifin-Ras

Valimaki-Tanev

Zadorov-Kylington

or

Option 2

Hanifin-Ras

Valimaki-Zadorov

Kylington-Tanev

 

Option 3 is maximizing offense at the expense of experience on the 3rd pair:

Hanifin-Tanev

Zadorov-Ras

Valimaki-Kylington

 

 

[rickross]

Quite the underwhelming off season thus far. If this is the majority of our final roster we will be drafting high next year. As it stands it’s really hard to say this team is an improved one. I know there’s still time and I don’t buy the Eichel rumours tbh. Although landing Eichel would really make for an interesting Battle of Alberta, Mcdavid vs Eichel….

[conundrumed]

20 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I would refer to it as a tentative player.  Overthinks it, and as a result is handcuffed. 

I've seen a few instances where he was thinking about pinching.

He half commits.  And then the puck is past him.

No, he's rarely beat back to his own net, but the guy he played with was nowhere in position.

Can't have two guys thinking pinch.

It's likely more the stress of knowing a couple of mistakes will staple you to the press box. The outcomes of not expecting young players to make some mistakes is too harsh. Penalizing them isn't teaching, just keeps them nervous. It's that old argument. Kyl is fast and skilled enough to help on O, but his D is lacking. Do you take advantage of the skill and try to cover the lack or try to fix everything all at once?

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

It's likely more the stress of knowing a couple of mistakes will staple you to the press box. The outcomes of not expecting young players to make some mistakes is too harsh. Penalizing them isn't teaching, just keeps them nervous. It's that old argument. Kyl is fast and skilled enough to help on O, but his D is lacking. Do you take advantage of the skill and try to cover the lack or try to fix everything all at once?

 

What he has shown is a result of the way he has been used.  Ward was really bad for his ability to get into the lineup.  Sutter treated him like a leaper.  And he's basically saying to him and Valimaki that you should be perfect, not a work in progress.  He's tentative on O because he doesn't want to make a mistake.  If him and Stone or Nesterov are both at the the blueline, only Kylington is going to be able to get back.  Somehow that's his fault.  Yet, Gio was famous for not holding the line and ending up with a penalty because he didn't have Brodie covering for him. 

 

I've said this a few times.  Kylington played in games and we went 6-1-1 last year, where he was -1 overall.  I would be happy that they figure out if they want to invest in the player and provide him a steady partner or whether they just go out and sign a top 4 RD and call him up for injury relief.If the latter is the case, then play him as a top D in the AHL and let him work out the bugs. 

[cross16]

I personally don't see Kylington's problems as tentative or passive I think it's the opposite. Too many times he cheats because he seems to think he has the speed to catch anyone and everyone in the NHL. He hasn't adjusted to the fact he's no longer the best skater on the ice like he was in junior/minor leagues. If he had a great shot or great ability to put pucks on net, or was an excellent puck mover you could live with the defensive miscues but he really doesn't bring those things. He is a conundrum for a coach. 

 

A couple of seasons ago I thought he was making some strides in his d play but he seem to regress last year and went back to giving up those high level chances. He seems to be firmly settling into the tweener category and with no improvements in either side of his game I can understand completely why coaches have difficulty playing him. 

[travel_dude]

To be fair, he had 8 games last year.  Minutes 8-10 or 13-15 per game.

 

[robrob74]

You’re going to make mistakes if you don’t have a feel for the puck. Practice is a lot different than game situations. 
 

he’s going to end up like kulak. I am not upset by that, just upset with how the team has handled his development when he was able to be a call up without waivers. Or that he should just be playing. 
 

but some think playing in AHL the last few years wouldn’t do anything to help his game, so what do I know? 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

You’re going to make mistakes if you don’t have a feel for the puck. Practice is a lot different than game situations. 
 

he’s going to end up like kulak. I am not upset by that, just upset with how the team has handled his development when he was able to be a call up without waivers. Or that he should just be playing. 
 

but some think playing in AHL the last few years wouldn’t do anything to help his game, so what do I know? 

 

The coach determines who is on the ice.

That's not a development fail really.

That's a coach that doesn't trust him for some reason.

 

In 18/19, he played a bunch of games once called up.

Not great stats, but not that bad.

In 19/20, he played most of the season and was sat once we got Gus and Forbort.

We were supposedly in need of a shutdown D and a PP QB.

I think Peters had a bit more time for him than Ward, but ultimately it was Ward using expensive TDL players.

 

It seems that we have little time for middle of the road prospects.

Once they come in, they have to be mistake free.

Which is fine, but I would prefer that we give a little if they also make great plays.

Lord knows I spent a lot of time yelling at Brodie or Gio.

They made up for it.

 

 

 

[robrob74]

15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The coach determines who is on the ice.

That's not a development fail really.

That's a coach that doesn't trust him for some reason.

 

In 18/19, he played a bunch of games once called up.

Not great stats, but not that bad.

In 19/20, he played most of the season and was sat once we got Gus and Forbort.

We were supposedly in need of a shutdown D and a PP QB.

I think Peters had a bit more time for him than Ward, but ultimately it was Ward using expensive TDL players.

 

It seems that we have little time for middle of the road prospects.

Once they come in, they have to be mistake free.

Which is fine, but I would prefer that we give a little if they also make great plays.

Lord knows I spent a lot of time yelling at Brodie or Gio.

They made up for it.

 

 

 

I agree! They made a lot of good plays but the mistakes are what stand out.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I agree! They made a lot of good plays but the mistakes are what stand out.

 

I have less tme for the completer pieces they look at at TDL.

We weren't a Forbort or Gus away from the cup.

You pick up a guy like Coleman at TDL, it's a slightly different discussion.

Not that different, but at least closer to a difference maker.

 

 

[The_People1]

I would say Kylington has come a long way since his Junior/Heat days.

 

He used to hang onto the puck too long.  Passes when he should shoot.  Shoots when he should pass.  And then after the puck turns over, he's not fast enough to come back to defend.  Recently, he's toned that down and focused on just playing D.  And honestly speaking, the minimum requirement for a D is to cover your man and then go off the glass and out.  If you can make a good first pass, then that's a bonus.  If you can carry the puck all the way into the offensive zone, that's beyond what is asked of you.  Kylington obviously can do most of this.  But at the end of the day, he just needs to stop hurting the team when he has the puck because one wrong decision with the puck and it's an odd man rush against us.

 

It's all between the ears because he has all the tools to become the next TJ Brodie.  Hopefully he can find a role under Sutter's system.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

I would say Kylington has come a long way since his Junior/Heat days.

 

He used to hang onto the puck too long.  Passes when he should shoot.  Shoots when he should pass.  And then after the puck turns over, he's not fast enough to come back to defend.  Recently, he's toned that down and focused on just playing D.  And honestly speaking, the minimum requirement for a D is to cover your man and then go off the glass and out.  If you can make a good first pass, then that's a bonus.  If you can carry the puck all the way into the offensive zone, that's beyond what is asked of you.  Kylington obviously can do most of this.  But at the end of the day, he just needs to stop hurting the team when he has the puck because one wrong decision with the puck and it's an odd man rush against us.

 

It's all between the ears because he has all the tools to become the next TJ Brodie.  Hopefully he can find a role under Sutter's system.

 

Kylington has had questionable partners at times.

Nesterov was a complete bonehead when they played as a pair.

He had to cover his own man and try to cover the hole left by Nessy.

 

I agree there was some plays that he make a bad choice.

When your partner is a loaf, those becomes odd man rushes.

 

Perhaps I have a bit more time for the player.  Valimaki should be 2nd pairing with Ras or Tanev.

But he's been browbeat to a 3rd pair guy.

Regardless, use him with Tanev and let him provide some offense; Tanev will help him grow. 

Kylington can play with Zadorov and not have to worry about guys attacking the net.

[pikey7883]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Kylington has had questionable partners at times.

Nesterov was a complete bonehead when they played as a pair.

He had to cover his own man and try to cover the hole left by Nessy.

 

I agree there was some plays that he make a bad choice.

When your partner is a loaf, those becomes odd man rushes.

 

Perhaps I have a bit more time for the player.  Valimaki should be 2nd pairing with Ras or Tanev.

But he's been browbeat to a 3rd pair guy.

Regardless, use him with Tanev and let him provide some offense; Tanev will help him grow. 

Kylington can play with Zadorov and not have to worry about guys attacking the net.

I agree with this fully, I think we have our top 6 D, and I hope Sutter uses them effectively. Hanny and Ras are our top pair, and get to do the heavy lifting with PP time. Val should be protected and developed with Tanev in the same way he did for Hannifin last year. Zad and Shill are our third pair and hopefully can figure out how to be the ying and yang to each other. If they sign Stone for insurance that’s fine, but give those 6 a shot to figure it out. I’m afraid if they bring in a FA like Vantanen (who I like), it will put undo pressure on guys like Shill and Val, just let them play their game. 

[Sarasti]

If we are going to go with a 4F PP again, I hope Valimaki and Kylington get some chances on on of the units.

 

They have the tools and it could help their confidence to make offensive plays 5v5.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Sarasti said:

If we are going to go with a 4F PP again, I hope Valimaki and Kylington get some chances on on of the units.

 

They have the tools and it could help their confidence to make offensive plays 5v5.

 

Valimaki is suited for PP.

Smart at getting pucks in, and he's not too bad at holding the line.

Kylington - I would only use him in a 3 and 2 setup.

 

Realistically, the D that get PP minutes will be Hanifin, Ras, and Valimaki.

[The_People1]

On 8/13/2021 at 9:29 AM, pikey7883 said:

I agree with this fully, I think we have our top 6 D, and I hope Sutter uses them effectively. Hanny and Ras are our top pair, and get to do the heavy lifting with PP time. Val should be protected and developed with Tanev in the same way he did for Hannifin last year. Zad and Shill are our third pair and hopefully can figure out how to be the ying and yang to each other. If they sign Stone for insurance that’s fine, but give those 6 a shot to figure it out. I’m afraid if they bring in a FA like Vantanen (who I like), it will put undo pressure on guys like Shill and Val, just let them play their game. 

 

I fully agree.

 

Sadly they married Hanifin with Tanev and I think that's what we are going to see to start the season.

 

And since Sutter likes his veteran D, we could see Zadorov-Andersson second pairing.

 

I'm shocked we haven't brought Stone back yet.  He did well under Sutter and Sutter played him a lot down the stretch.  If he comes back then,

 

Valimaki - Stone third pair.  

[kehatch]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I fully agree.

 

Sadly they married Hanifin with Tanev and I think that's what we are going to see to start the season.

 

And since Sutter likes his veteran D, we could see Zadorov-Andersson second pairing.

 

I'm shocked we haven't brought Stone back yet.  He did well under Sutter and Sutter played him a lot down the stretch.  If he comes back then,

 

Valimaki - Stone third pair.  

 

I actually really like Hanifin-Tanev / Zadarov-Andersson / Valamaki-Whomever.  

[cross16]

Zadarov- Anderson might work and I can understand the desire to try it but oh boy if Andersson doesn't bounce back that is going to turn into a nightmare pairing.

 

They won't do this but IMO this is by far the most logical lineup.

 

Hanifin - Andersson

Tanev - Valimaki

Zadorov - ??

 

The most balanced D unit in terms of strength/weaknesses IMO. Not to mention your can leverage the previous success of Hanifin-Andersson. 

 

I think Tanev - Hanifin is too top heavy.

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Zadarov- Anderson might work and I can understand the desire to try it but oh boy if Andersson doesn't bounce back that is going to turn into a nightmare pairing.

 

They won't do this but IMO this is by far the most logical lineup.

 

Hanifin - Andersson

Tanev - Valimaki

Zadorov - ??

 

The most balanced D unit in terms of strength/weaknesses IMO. Not to mention your can leverage the previous success of Hanifin-Andersson. 

 

I think Tanev - Hanifin is too top heavy.

 

We saw good results of the top pair in the past, so I would be okay with that.

Valimaki-Tanev should maximize skating with shutdown.

Zadorov works with someone steady.

Maybe a Demers or Vatanen would be enough.

[The_People1]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

Zadarov- Anderson might work and I can understand the desire to try it but oh boy if Andersson doesn't bounce back that is going to turn into a nightmare pairing.

 

They won't do this but IMO this is by far the most logical lineup.

 

Hanifin - Andersson

Tanev - Valimaki

Zadorov - ??

 

The most balanced D unit in terms of strength/weaknesses IMO. Not to mention your can leverage the previous success of Hanifin-Andersson. 

 

I think Tanev - Hanifin is too top heavy.

 

Boy that's true and so sad.  Tanev-Hanifin is only second pairing material on most playoff teams.  Yet, that's top heavy for us.  JFC, yes if Andersson has a down year (again), then it's going to be a long year for us (again).  Those odds feel like 50/50.

 

Zadorov is a solid 4/5/6 guy but we don't want him playing big minutes.  He doesn't carry a D-pairing by himself and I see him as a stop gap to give Sutter temporary muscle on D.  Hopefully he comes in cheap on 2-years max and the Flames can go find an upgrade somewhere else.

[kehatch]

I have spent too many off seasons getting hung up on lines and pairings, only to have reality set in come October. 

 

There are too many unknowns. Chemistry, off season development, health, additional moves, etc. 

 

That said, I don't think the Flames can be too top heavy on D. Hanafin and Tanev were great together, and Zadarovs D first style let's Andersson be more offensive, something he didn't do when paired with Giordano. 

 

But who knows. Valimaki may come in with 10 points of more muscle and ready to make an impact. Andersson might be traded. Stone might get signed. Lots of possibilities. 

[conundrumed]

Seems the offseason has gotten long in the tooth for much meaningful move-wise.

Wait for PTOs?

[travel_dude]

57 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Seems the offseason has gotten long in the tooth for much meaningful move-wise.

Wait for PTOs?

 

I think BT is waiting until the Eichel situation is resolved.

If there is not going to be a solution, then he moves on to other priorities.

There are something like 5 RFA's that need to be dealt with.

The possible arbitration case or negotiations with Zaddy.

 

 

[conundrumed]

11 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think BT is waiting until the Eichel situation is resolved.

If there is not going to be a solution, then he moves on to other priorities.

There are something like 5 RFA's that need to be dealt with.

The possible arbitration case or negotiations with Zaddy.

 

 

A month to training camp and not much out there. I think any moves now are minor.