Playoffs 2020 - Flames Lineup

[cross16]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think Robinson could work against DAL because they have some big D and Robinson gives us size to overcome them.  If we were playing a fast team, then I wouldn't even consider Robinson in the lineup.

 

Which is fair, but like i said i don't see Robinson as an NHL player. It appears that some saw something in him that I don't see but I personally would never put someone in my lineup in the playoffs who i don't think is an NHL option. I get the "try it and see what happens" idea but the problem with that is if it doesn't work you've just shortened your bench which i think is a killer against Dallas because they can roll 4 lines and 3 d pairings. 

 

Robinson may be fast enough to go and get in on the cycle and bang some bodies but what I saw in his short stint was no ability for him to create off of that cycle. That's why I don't see him as a viable option. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Why do we have to "get him going?".   It should be the other way around.  

I think we do need to get him going. I think the coaches need to devise or coach a new plan for how he distributes the puck. Try different strategies. They’d do it for any other players. Why do they have to just let Johnny be Johnny? Why not have Johnny be good...? 😝

The strategy he’s using isn’t working. The players he’s playing with has only worked off and on since the all star break in the 20-18-2019 season. 
 

it’s easy to say your best players need to be your best players, but I think the coaches still need to coach. Find him a new way. 
 

watching the Canucks last night, glad they lost, but I’d love to see Johnny used on the PP like Pettersson. 
 

someone else said, get Johnny away from his left side curl. Get him going through other areas of the neutral zone. Have other players with him that he can give and go with.... I am sure he can do that with the mates he’s on with now, so why not coach him to use his guys?

[robrob74]

36 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Which is fair, but like i said i don't see Robinson as an NHL player. It appears that some saw something in him that I don't see but I personally would never put someone in my lineup in the playoffs who i don't think is an NHL option. I get the "try it and see what happens" idea but the problem with that is if it doesn't work you've just shortened your bench which i think is a killer against Dallas because they can roll 4 lines and 3 d pairings. 

 

Robinson may be fast enough to go and get in on the cycle and bang some bodies but what I saw in his short stint was no ability for him to create off of that cycle. That's why I don't see him as a viable option. 

 

For me, it was how he got Johnny’s feet moving. Johnny became Johnny when he played with Buddy. They’re buds! So I say, maybe inject him in for a game. Play him on that line for a few shifts. Worst case is, youre playing him 7-8 minutes a game, same as any 4th liner not named Ryan at the moment. Play him 3-4 shifts with Johnny. Go regular lines the rest of the way. It might give Lindholm a rest too.

 

plus, I agree that he’s not really an NHLer. But I also think he’s not much worse than the other alternatives.

[travel_dude]

22 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Which is fair, but like i said i don't see Robinson as an NHL player. It appears that some saw something in him that I don't see but I personally would never put someone in my lineup in the playoffs who i don't think is an NHL option. I get the "try it and see what happens" idea but the problem with that is if it doesn't work you've just shortened your bench which i think is a killer against Dallas because they can roll 4 lines and 3 d pairings. 

 

Robinson may be fast enough to go and get in on the cycle and bang some bodies but what I saw in his short stint was no ability for him to create off of that cycle. That's why I don't see him as a viable option. 

 

I guess the argument in his favor is that he would be a similar add as Rinaldo was.  Not capable of over 7 minutes.

I haven't see any updates to the Flames lineup for today, but the two possibles are Rinaldo in and Tkachuk in.

If Tkachuk is in, then the only question is whether you play Janko or Rinaldo/Quine/Buddy.

 

Maybe it's just me, but we had one decent game with Janko, and one we lost.

He wasn't the reason for the loss IMHO.

With Rinaldo, we have had two games where we barely made it to the final buzzer.

Neither was a complete game by the Flames.

Havin a player log 7 minutes or less doesn't help especially if some of your players are gassed. 

[cross16]

I get the 4th line argument and how they will only play 6-7 mins so what harm can they do, but I think that thinking needs to change for this series. Stars are playing the Flames hard, they roll 4 lines and 3 d pairs at you and the games are starting to pile up. I think Ward and the coaching staff need to start being better prepared for late game scenarios and need players in the bottom 6 that can be utilized in those situations or players that can be utilized in special team situations because right now i think he is wearing down a small list of players. 

 

This is going to be a dogfight of a series so I don't suspect you'll have a game where you can deploy your 3rd/4th lines in a more heavy rotation to give guys a rest so it's on Ward and the coaches to be better prepared that they have been thus far. Rinaldo nor Robinson should be used anymore because they don't provide you any value to use in later game scenarios or special teams. 

[robrob74]

12 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I get the 4th line argument and how they will only play 6-7 mins so what harm can they do, but I think that thinking needs to change for this series. Stars are playing the Flames hard, they roll 4 lines and 3 d pairs at you and the games are starting to pile up. I think Ward and the coaching staff need to start being better prepared for late game scenarios and need players in the bottom 6 that can be utilized in those situations or players that can be utilized in special team situations because right now i think he is wearing down a small list of players. 

 

This is going to be a dogfight of a series so I don't suspect you'll have a game where you can deploy your 3rd/4th lines in a more heavy rotation to give guys a rest so it's on Ward and the coaches to be better prepared that they have been thus far. Rinaldo nor Robinson should be used anymore because they don't provide you any value to use in later game scenarios or special teams. 

 

I can agree with this. 
Ward really needs to start rolling his 4 lines and throughout the game. 
Janko is the only one that I think is NHL ready. Maybe Quine is close? 
They need to drop some minutes for the top guys. 
I dunno if putting Gus up for wing helps. Someone mentioned that a few days ago. 
 

Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm 

Tkachuk, Backlund, Mangiapane 

Lucic, Bennett, Dube 

Jankowski/Gus, Ryan, Reider

[JTech780]

If Gawdin was available I think it changes a lot of these discussions.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

If Gawdin was available I think it changes a lot of these discussions.

 

Did he play at all this season?

I think you could see Ward's decision making when he dropped Janko for Rinaldo after two games.

Dallas isn't winning because they are outhitting us or we aren't tough enough.

[Thebrewcrew]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Did he play at all this season?

I think you could see Ward's decision making when he dropped Janko for Rinaldo after two games.

Dallas isn't winning because they are outhitting us or we aren't tough enough.

I don't know about you, but I don't need to see anymore of Rinaldo in this series...

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I don't know about you, but I don't need to see anymore of Rinaldo in this series...

 

I think I have been pretty clear on my opinion of him.

We lost the series because Rinaldo was the 12th best guy that we could deploy as a forward.

At least that is someone's ranking of him.

[phoenix66]

12 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think I have been pretty clear on my opinion of him.

We lost the series because Rinaldo was the 12th best guy that we could deploy as a forward.

At least that is someone's ranking of him.

 

12 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I don't know about you, but I don't need to see anymore of Rinaldo in this series...

 

12 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Did he play at all this season?

I think you could see Ward's decision making when he dropped Janko for Rinaldo after two games.

Dallas isn't winning because they are outhitting us or we aren't tough enough.

Its obvious nobody watches him when he's on the ice 

He's getting in lanes, he's finishing checks ,, hes providing value , which is why Ward has him in there .

Hes not a high minute guy but people seem to think all he does is goon work .. he does what Hathaway did at less than half the price 

Janko is a slug who is not even going to get qualified 

If you were just looking for pure skill then youd be putting Czarnik in 

 

Obviously Nobody watched Game 2.. the cheap shot artists on Dallas went to town , they havent since 

Lucic cant play that role as effectively right now because we need him for other reasons

 

say what you want , but sorry No .. Rinaldo is the best option  to be using in that spot right how and hes been doing his job that the team needs him  to do

[JTech780]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 

 

Its obvious nobody watches him when he's on the ice 

He's getting in lanes, he's finishing checks ,, hes providing value , which is why Ward has him in there .

Hes not a high minute guy but people seem to think all he does is goon work .. he does what Hathaway did at less than half the price 

Janko is a slug who is not even going to get qualified 

If you were just looking for pure skill then youd be putting Czarnik in 

 

Obviously Nobody watched Game 2.. the cheap shot artists on Dallas went to town , they havent since 

Lucic cant play that role as effectively right now because we need him for other reasons

 

say what you want , but sorry No .. Rinaldo is the best option  to be using in that spot right how and hes been doing his job that the team needs him  to do

 

Rinaldo has been far and away the worst forward by every imaginable metric. He has been useless, he hasn't stop Dallas from doing anything. Dallas has their way when he is on the ice. He runs around trying to do things, but it usually takes him out of the play and doesn't really have much impact. Rinaldo shouldn't be playing bottom line.

 

Jankowski isn't perfect, but he is very good defensively and on the PK. He has also been on the ice for as many high danger chances as Gaudreau at 5v5. 

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 

 

Its obvious nobody watches him when he's on the ice 

He's getting in lanes, he's finishing checks ,, hes providing value , which is why Ward has him in there .

Hes not a high minute guy but people seem to think all he does is goon work .. he does what Hathaway did at less than half the price 

Janko is a slug who is not even going to get qualified 

If you were just looking for pure skill then youd be putting Czarnik in 

 

Obviously Nobody watched Game 2.. the cheap shot artists on Dallas went to town , they havent since 

Lucic cant play that role as effectively right now because we need him for other reasons

 

say what you want , but sorry No .. Rinaldo is the best option  to be using in that spot right how and hes been doing his job that the team needs him  to do

 

I don't see the positive things he brings.  Does he drive the play at all?

He hits.  He forechecks.

Did the 4th line manage to do anything with him on the ice?

I didn't see it.

[phoenix66]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't see the positive things he brings.  Does he drive the play at all?

He hits.  He forechecks.

Did the 4th line manage to do anything with him on the ice?

I didn't see it.

That's obvious .. well they didn't get scored on like Jankowski did for starters 

Hitting and forechecking is exactly what that line is there to do .. and he does it better than Janko,   

if i'm putting Janko in its because I at least want a chance at some more offense too.. but the dude has 1 SHOT  in 4 playoff starts this year .. AND he's a -1 with similar ice time and # of shifts 

Hes not stopping goals.. he brings no energy .. doesnt hit anything .and isn't generating offense .. he's also slow 

[cross16]

We are talking about the 4th line during a series that is going to 6 games and the Flames top line has registered zero 5 on 5 points, and only 5 high danger chances for. 

 

I don't like Rinaldo either but honestly who really gives a crap. Small potatoes to what is actually costing the Flames the series. 

[sak22]

Just a thought, but if Tkachuk is able to return next game what would you do with the lines.  I actually liked Lindholm when he moved to Backlund's line better than he had been on the top so far in this series.  So my 2 thoughts for the top 6

Gaudreau-Monahan-Tkachuk

Mangiapane-Backlund-Lindholm

 

or

Gaudreau-Monahan-Mangiapane

Tkachuk-Backlund-Lindholm

 

It could be all moot if Tkachuk can't go, but what are peoples thoughts on either?

[cross16]

If Tkachuk is back:

 

Gaudreau - Monahan - Mang

Tkachuk - Backs - Lindholm

Dube line

Janko - Ryan - Reider

 

If Tkachuk is not back:

 

Gaudreau-Monahan - Mang

Reider- Backs - LIndholm

Dube Line

Janko - Ryan - Quine

 

But I would plan to double shift Gaudreau in Reider's spot.

 

That's how i'm starting. Part of me wants to shake things up but I don't think that's how you best prepare to win an elimination game. I thikn a coach needs to put his best foot forward and that isn't messing with your line at this point in the season.

 

If it doesn't go well, then i'm mixing it up and I would separate Gaudreau/Mony

 

Gaudreau - Backs - Lindholm

Lucic - Monahan - Mangiapange

Reider - Bennett - Dube

Janko - Ryan - Quine

 

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, cross16 said:

If Tkachuk is back:

 

Gaudreau - Monahan - Mang

Tkachuk - Backs - Lindholm

Dube line

Janko - Ryan - Reider

 

If Tkachuk is not back:

 

Gaudreau-Monahan - Mang

Reider- Backs - LIndholm

Dube Line

Janko - Ryan - Quine

 

But I would plan to double shift Gaudreau in Reider's spot.

 

That's how i'm starting. Part of me wants to shake things up but I don't think that's how you best prepare to win an elimination game. I thikn a coach needs to put his best foot forward and that isn't messing with your line at this point in the season.

 

If it doesn't go well, then i'm mixing it up and I would separate Gaudreau/Mony

 

Gaudreau - Backs - Lindholm

Lucic - Monahan - Mangiapange

Reider - Bennett - Dube

Janko - Ryan - Quine

 

 

I guess what I was thinking is that Gaudreau with Monahan has not been a good fit, for whatever reason.

So, swapping Mangiapane with Lindholm may or may not change the top line dynamics.

I don't like to go full on change, but if Tkachuk is back, then I would just swap Gaudreau with Mangiapane.

 

Mangiapane-Monahan-Lindholm

Gaudreau-Backs-Tkachuk

Bennett line

Rieder-Janko-Ryan

 

Why I think that would work is the playing style of Gaudreau compliments Backlund.

It's not like the line was producing with Mangiapane and Tkachuk.

Tkachuk tended to play RW with Mangiapane anyway.

Mangiapane is more capable on the boards than Gaudreau and goes to the net.

Monahan might benefit from that.

 

If Tkachuk is not back they you need to be a bit more drastic.

Mangiapane-Monahan-Lindholm

Gaudreau-Backs-Dube

Lucic-Bennett-Ryan

Quine-Janko-Rieder

 

At least this way, you have two new-ish lines and most of the 3rd line the same.

It's drastic, but I don't see it being a desperate thing as much as looking to improve.

Going with the starting line from the last two games is much more desperate.

And not what I would consider a good thing.

[cross16]

for me, an elimination game is not the time to just start throwing things at a wall and it's definitely not time to put players in positions they have not played in years or ever.

 

That's my philosophy on it 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

for me, an elimination game is not the time to just start throwing things at a wall and it's definitely not time to put players in positions they have not played in years or ever.

 

That's my philosophy on it 

 

My suggestions were based on my understanding that Tkachuk has played RW, not moving him there without warning.

Maybe I am mistaken but I am sure he has played RW more than once.

He was listed there in every projected lineup list that I can remember from January onward.

 

[robrob74]

6 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

 

 

Its obvious nobody watches him when he's on the ice 

He's getting in lanes, he's finishing checks ,, hes providing value , which is why Ward has him in there .

Hes not a high minute guy but people seem to think all he does is goon work .. he does what Hathaway did at less than half the price 

Janko is a slug who is not even going to get qualified 

If you were just looking for pure skill then youd be putting Czarnik in 

 

Obviously Nobody watched Game 2.. the cheap shot artists on Dallas went to town , they havent since 

Lucic cant play that role as effectively right now because we need him for other reasons

 

say what you want , but sorry No .. Rinaldo is the best option  to be using in that spot right how and hes been doing his job that the team needs him  to do

 

I am kind of tired of the argument that guys like him give you what you need. They say Dallas hasn’t been cheap, but you’re right, they’ve only shown some signs of it since. 
 

my biggest concern was the pk and since the refs put the whistles away there’s no real need for Jankowski. Some say he can defend, but I think he can only PK. 
 

I actually think Rinaldo had  one of the better games for the mmmm yesterday. Their line was better than the Monahan line for most of the night. They sustained zone time a hell of a lot more than them too. 
 

I get it. He whiffed on a few. I’d whiff too if I don’t get the touches of the puck with regularity. It’s called rust. And I think when guys only get that many minutes per game, their touch goes with it...

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't see the positive things he brings.  Does he drive the play at all?

He hits.  He forechecks.

Did the 4th line manage to do anything with him on the ice?

I didn't see it.

 

this is deflecting from what’s really at fault here. Everyone wants to blame a fourth line when the blame should be on the top6. They’re not getting it done! Dallas’ too6 is routinely outscoring ours and that’s what’s losing the Flames the series. 
 

Backlund is doing good, but like Bennett, there’s only so much a few players can do if the first line isn’t scoring, and Backlund’s line isn’t picking up those pieces and it’s almost unfair to expect them to. But they need a few more from time to time too. 
 

the fact we blame the 4th line is masking the real problems. The Top6 and Top4 D just aren’t good enough!

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

We are talking about the 4th line during a series that is going to 6 games and the Flames top line has registered zero 5 on 5 points, and only 5 high danger chances for. 

 

I don't like Rinaldo either but honestly who really gives a crap. Small potatoes to what is actually costing the Flames the series. 

 

I just caught up to thIs post and realized I just said the same thing. 
 

the Top6 and Top4 aren’t good enough. We need more from them, a few more minutes of zone time in their end and some timely stops and less breakdowns. I thought the 4th line had more zone time than the Monahan line in comparison to their usage. Sure they didn’t look pretty but it was time they had in Dallas’ end and not ours.

[cross16]

This is not really complicated analysis I think. Darryl Sutter use to break down a series based on the goals and from that metric going into game 6 the series is tied at 14-14.

 

Goals by line:

 

Flames

1st line - 1 (PP goal from Gaudreau

2nd line - 2

3rd line - 6

4th line - 2 (Reiders Shorties)

 

D- 3

 

Stars:

1st - 4 (all at 5 on 5)

2nd - 5

3rd - 1 (PP goal from Perry)

4th - Zero

 

D - 4

 

Not hard to see where the difference in this series lies. Literally anymore production out of the top line and this series is either over, or the Flames are up. 

It is somewhat fair to point to the 2nd line but I actually feel they've been good. Missing Tkachuk is a big blow and they are still mostly finding a way to push the play the other way and top of the fact they are the shutdown line too. 

 

At some point in a series your best players need to be your best players and the Flames' have been nowhere close. It's really that simple and if they want to win that's going to be the formula. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

This is not really complicated analysis I think. Darryl Sutter use to break down a series based on the goals and from that metric going into game 6 the series is tied at 14-14.

 

Goals by line:

 

Flames

1st line - 1 (PP goal from Gaudreau

2nd line - 2

3rd line - 6

4th line - 2 (Reiders Shorties)

 

D- 3

 

Stars:

1st - 4 (all at 5 on 5)

2nd - 5

3rd - 1 (PP goal from Perry)

4th - Zero

 

D - 4

 

Not hard to see where the difference in this series lies. Literally anymore production out of the top line and this series is either over, or the Flames are up. 

It is somewhat fair to point to the 2nd line but I actually feel they've been good. Missing Tkachuk is a big blow and they are still mostly finding a way to push the play the other way and top of the fact they are the shutdown line too. 

 

At some point in a series your best players need to be your best players and the Flames' have been nowhere close. It's really that simple and if they want to win that's going to be the formula. 

 

for the last two years there’s been blame placed on the players coaches are throwing on, mostly 4th liners.