This requires an overhaul, not an adjustment

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, Horsman1 said:

the rebuild is not yet complete.. Kudos for an outstanding regular season but .. we must move on.. We have 4 players that would be considered top six on any team in the league.. Johnny/Lidstrom/Monahan and Tkachuk.. of the four.. all but one are left shots.. Backlund is not a top six player on a championship team.. but.. he is one of the best 3rd line defensive centers in the league.. as we've seen. 

 

We really are missing two more top 6 players.  Preferably one of then is RHS C.

 

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm

Tkachuk - RHSC - RW

Bennett - Backlund - RW

Mangiapane - Ryan - Hathaway

 

Also, I don't think we can put Backlund in with the elite defensive C because he let MacKinnon do whatever he wanted all series.  

[robrob74]

32 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

We really are missing two more top 6 players.  Preferably one of then is RHS C.

 

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm

Tkachuk - RHSC - RW

Bennett - Backlund - RW

Mangiapane - Ryan - Hathaway

 

Also, I don't think we can put Backlund in with the elite defensive C because he let MacKinnon do whatever he wanted all series.  

 

You could even move Lindholm to the 2nd line and fill the first with another RW.

for some reason he got lost on the 1st line. Some got mad at Ferland for slumping in the 2nd half, but we noticed two years in a row, you shut down Gaudreau then you shut down the line. Lindholm and Ferland almost have no chance. Not giving Ferland a pass because at least Lindholm brings other intangibles. 

 

I personally dont think Monahan moves the needle enough to be that #1 guy. He doesn’t do enough outside of scoring goals. So I want a guy in that slot that gives you two-way play and skill. They’re just too easy to shut down otherwise and Gaudreau has the talent to be better if he had that.

[travel_dude]

On 4/22/2019 at 0:40 PM, jjgallow said:

 

I don't agree that  goaltending alone will solve our problems, because, well, it was quite frankly the only thing that didn't fail us entirely.   Our biggest failing was defence imho.

 

However, I do agree with you that Riittich should have been in there a long time ago.  Absolutely agree.

 

The solution might be a much better goaltending prospect altogether though.   You just can't expect a .911 Save percentage to overtake the starter.  It took Grubauer .926 to do that at a far younger age, and over multiple years.   I had hoped we would have traded for Grubauer 3 - 4 years ago.   That past, I think that is a process we still need to go through if we want cup quality goaltending.     

 

Here's the thing about Rittich.  He was injured around December 31st at which time he was sporting crazy numbers playing against tough teams in tough situations.

AQfter that point, he was different in a bad way.  Down about 2 percentage points in SA%.

 

Regular season - goaltending kept us from being a Tampa.

Playoffs - defense and lack of any speed turned us into a Tampa.

 

Comparing playoff goaltending between teams, I would say that Smith was not in the top 5.

Jones was in game 6.

MAF was for most games.

Bingington was for 1/2 the series at least.

Helly was for 1/2 or less.

Mrazek was.

Rask great for 1/2 of the games.

Rinne and Bishop outstanding.

[cccsberg]

On 2019-04-21 at 3:40 PM, travel_dude said:

A month ago, this thread would have been laughed off.

Now, it seems to have become real.

A crappy playoff performance between then and now.

The top line fell off the cliff a month ago and somehow this is a shock they couldn;t do it in the playoffs?

 

What we need going forward is a reliable pair in nets.

Smith was inconsistent and put up his best stretch in the meaningless games at the end of the season.

Rittich faced the tough teams but got the short leash in favor of Smith's vet status.

He never managed to get it back.

I'm not bitter, because Smith had the better stats to end the season.

We also have no way to tell if things would be different with Rittich in nets.

After game 3, we should have made the change, to at least see what the difference would be..

 

 

Turns out Rittich was injured DEC 31.  His stats pre- and post-injury are dramatic.  Even though he was still able to play his performance deteriorated drastically, which may be a reason why he wasn't used too much later in the season.  He's still nursing the injury and isn't going to the Worlds to let it rest and rehab.

[Horsman1]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

You could even move Lindholm to the 2nd line and fill the first with another RW.

for some reason he got lost on the 1st line. Some got mad at Ferland for slumping in the 2nd half, but we noticed two years in a row, you shut down Gaudreau then you shut down the line. Lindholm and Ferland almost have no chance. Not giving Ferland a pass because at least Lindholm brings other intangibles. 

 

I personally dont think Monahan moves the needle enough to be that #1 guy. He doesn’t do enough outside of scoring goals. So I want a guy in that slot that gives you two-way play and skill. They’re just too easy to shut down otherwise and Gaudreau has the talent to be better if he had that.

yes.. still missing two top 6 bodies.. I would move monahan and tkachuk together and find them a right winger and put gaudreau and lindstrom together and find them a top line center

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

Turns out Rittich was injured DEC 31.  His stats pre- and post-injury are dramatic.  Even though he was still able to play his performance deteriorated drastically, which may be a reason why he wasn't used too much later in the season.  He's still nursing the injury and isn't going to the Worlds to let it rest and rehab.

As far as I'm concerned goaltending could possibly be the biggest issue in the off season. Knowing BSD was injured for over 1/2 the season but was still left in the lineup tells me mgmt has no faith in minor leaguers. Had Smith gone down any time after trade day Rittich would have had to go in nursing a knee injury, possibly hurting it permanently.   Unless theres a deal in BTs back pocket I think re-signing Smith may be what happens and hope the young Russian looks good.  The team isn't going to pay 10+ for Bob, the Canes have more than enough cap room to reward Mrazek, I don't really think any of the remaining FAs are a step up from the current situation.

[Horsman1]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Here's the thing about Rittich.  He was injured around December 31st at which time he was sporting crazy numbers playing against tough teams in tough situations.

AQfter that point, he was different in a bad way.  Down about 2 percentage points in SA%.

 

Regular season - goaltending kept us from being a Tampa.

Playoffs - defense and lack of any speed turned us into a Tampa.

 

Comparing playoff goaltending between teams, I would say that Smith was not in the top 5.

Jones was in game 6.

MAF was for most games.

Bingington was for 1/2 the series at least.

Helly was for 1/2 or less.

Mrazek was.

Rask great for 1/2 of the games.

Rinne and Bishop outstanding.

   Don't forget this was Rittich's first real kick at being on the roster on  a major league team without the threat of minor league demotion.. He did fine.. I if in fact he was injured at the end of December.. Then good luck finding a prospect anywhere that would have done better

 

[jjgallow]

So,

 

If Monahan had a cracked thumb, that's one thing,

 

But IMHO, the Rittich situation, that's not normal.    If a goalie is injured, it should be an excellent opportunity to bring one of your budding prospects up, give your injured goalie who you will need in the playoffs some rest, and develop within.   Could it cost you some games?  There is a risk.  It could also earn you some games.

 

Bottom line, I'm not sure if the Flames didn't trust what they had on the farm, or if they just NEEDED those regular season wins that badly, but whether it's one or both:

 

Making your goalie play injured in the regular season is just plain nuts.  A recipe for chronic injury, and a recipe for for them being unavailable in the playoffs, and a sure method to prevent prospect development.

 

This is not okay.    I see a whole host of problems here, including a Clear need for higher quality prospects, an overview of goalie prospect development (because track record is not great), but most importantly....   don't be playing injured goalies.

 

What I see here is a massive over-emphasis on the regular season and an under-emphasis on our future, and the playoffs.

 

Sure, we don't know all the details.    But it looks like there is work to be done both on and off the ice.   Of course, I realise hindsight is 20/20.  But for serious, when was this Ever okay?  

[cccsberg]

After watching the Leafs implode, and thinking back over the Flames demise I'm coming to the conclusion that the Flames are pretty nicely set just as they are.  TML have 2-3 outstanding game-breakers, an outstanding goalie and still manage to fail, year after year.   The Flames were a couple bounces away from going into Game 5 up 3-1.  Sometimes it just doesn't work out.  

 

That aside, I still believe Monahan would be a great 1RW or 2C and that we need to find speed and toughness to pair with Gaudreau.  That could be new guys or perhaps some combination of Bennett, Lindholm and Dube?  Monahan might better fit with Tkachuk and ???  

 

Not sure about Jankowski, as he seems to have stalled but really he was given a role as penalty killer and was very good there, so I'd sure like to know what his ceiling is if given free reins and great line mates.  Other guys coming along I'm intrigued about are Lazar (super fast), could he develop into a larger version of Byron?  Also Ruzicka, huge & talented...is he finally going to get it, like Anderson did eventually?  Then how about Pospisil, could be early but just what the doctor ordered?  Then how about Kylington, super fast.... what would have happened if BP stapled him to Mackinnon 1 on 1?  Lots to think about.  

 

Read an outstanding Down Goes Brown article on the Athletic (subscription required) discussing the current playoff chaos with so many upsets/"upsets".  It helps put things into perspective..... Basically he divided fans into two types, those who believe the SC playoffs find the very best team which eventually survives and wins, versus a very deserving team winning as a result of a myriad of random events/bounces/calls/injuries/matchups...... Afraid I'm falling more and more into the later category.  Its not as satisfying in the end.... just got to enjoy the hockey as it comes.  

[The_People1]

I'm just watching the Sharks score 4-goals on one 5-minute powerplay in the third period to save their season.  The Flame just don't have this killer instinct.  When pushed to the wall, we just folded like a cheap suit.

 

 

[phoenix66]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

So,

 

If Monahan had a cracked thumb, that's one thing,

 

But IMHO, the Rittich situation, that's not normal.    If a goalie is injured, it should be an excellent opportunity to bring one of your budding prospects up, give your injured goalie who you will need in the playoffs some rest, and develop within.   Could it cost you some games?  There is a risk.  It could also earn you some games.

 

Bottom line, I'm not sure if the Flames didn't trust what they had on the farm, or if they just NEEDED those regular season wins that badly, but whether it's one or both:

 

Making your goalie play injured in the regular season is just plain nuts.  A recipe for chronic injury, and a recipe for for them being unavailable in the playoffs, and a sure method to prevent prospect development.

 

This is not okay.    I see a whole host of problems here, including a Clear need for higher quality prospects, an overview of goalie prospect development (because track record is not great), but most importantly....   don't be playing injured goalies.

 

What I see here is a massive over-emphasis on the regular season and an under-emphasis on our future, and the playoffs.

 

Sure, we don't know all the details.    But it looks like there is work to be done both on and off the ice.   Of course, I realise hindsight is 20/20.  But for serious, when was this Ever okay?  

Not being a doctor , I can't say for sure ..but to hear BT tell it , it was an injury that didn't prevent him from playing.

Some injuries are nagging, they're not gonna get worse by playing..and won't get better with rest..may need a minor surgery.

Can't know for sure without actually knowing the injury , but the impression i got was that. I'd like to think the team dr would know best 

 

 

On a side note.. not sure if I'm overreacting , but I got mad reading this.. seriously makes me wanna just ship Johnny out of town 

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/flames-neal-gets-reality-check-gaudreau-shrugs-off-playoff-struggles/

[jjgallow]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Not being a doctor , I can't say for sure ..but to hear BT tell it , it was an injury that didn't prevent him from playing.

Some injuries are nagging, they're not gonna get worse by playing..and won't get better with rest..may need a minor surgery.

Can't know for sure without actually knowing the injury , but the impression i got was that. I'd like to think the team dr would know best 

 

 

On a side note.. not sure if I'm overreacting , but I got mad reading this.. seriously makes me wanna just ship Johnny out of town 

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/flames-neal-gets-reality-check-gaudreau-shrugs-off-playoff-struggles/

 

OMG you should not have showed me that lol.   I can't even.

 

He's completely checked out.  People are saying he wants out, wants to be on a US team.  No idea if it's true but that interview sure seems like it.  And his play.

 

Apologies for calling it an overhaul but Flames need to find a good deal for him and...that will be an overhaul for us.   Hopefully  a good one.

[sak22]

8 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Not being a doctor , I can't say for sure ..but to hear BT tell it , it was an injury that didn't prevent him from playing.

Some injuries are nagging, they're not gonna get worse by playing..and won't get better with rest..may need a minor surgery.

Can't know for sure without actually knowing the injury , but the impression i got was that. I'd like to think the team dr would know best 

 

 

On a side note.. not sure if I'm overreacting , but I got mad reading this.. seriously makes me wanna just ship Johnny out of town 

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/flames-neal-gets-reality-check-gaudreau-shrugs-off-playoff-struggles/

This is a Francis piece, typical of him to take a quote and spin it in his own way.  My interpretation was someone asking him if he could play in the playoffs.  What is he supposed to say?

 

Just an overreaction from a guy who loves to make stories out of nothing.

[phoenix66]

3 minutes ago, sak22 said:

This is a Francis piece, typical of him to take a quote and spin it in his own way.  My interpretation was someone asking him if he could play in the playoffs.  What is he supposed to say?

 

Just an overreaction from a guy who loves to make stories out of nothing.

I would typically think that..but Francis is normally a huge johnny bandwagon guy.

Every other quote or interview the player said " I needed to be better" or " we didn't play our best" .. they owned it 

That was basically" well I tried..oh well"..he was probably THE biggest disappointment in those 5 games ..show me you hate to lose

That kind of acceptance is a big reason Hamilton got shipped out

[The_People1]

25 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 

On a side note.. not sure if I'm overreacting , but I got mad reading this.. seriously makes me wanna just ship Johnny out of town 

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/flames-neal-gets-reality-check-gaudreau-shrugs-off-playoff-struggles/

 

Let me first say, I'm okay trading Gaudreau and one reason is we are stacked on the Left side.  Tkachuk, Bennett, and now Mangiapane needs more ice time.  Depth LW is generally the easiest position to replace via UFA as well.

 

That said, this is a non-story as far as I'm concerned.  Gaudreau played okay despite not putting up the numbers.  No, he wasn't great but he's a play maker who makes plays.  His finisher, Monahan was the problem and that's half his equation.  Gaudreau can only do so much.  Lindholm also lost chemistry with these two a month ago.

 

Anyways, I'm okay trading Gaudreau but not because of what he said at the exit interviews.

[The_People1]

35 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

People are saying he wants out, wants to be on a US team.  No idea if it's true but that interview sure seems like it.  And his play.

 

He was raised in New Jersey but grew up a Flyers fan.  I believe those are his two preferred destinations.

 

If we offer Gaudreau, then the sky is the limit.  He's a 99-point guy on a great contract.  My #1 target from Philly would be Carter Hart.  I think he's the real deal.  I'm also interested in Morgan Frost.

 

As far as NJ is concerned, I think everyone is available after a season like theirs except the #1 pick.

[Meatpuppet42]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

I'm just watching the Sharks score 4-goals on one 5-minute powerplay in the third period to save their season.  The Flame just don't have this killer instinct.  When pushed to the wall, we just folded like a cheap suit.

 

 

Ya we really need that come from behind and win attitude.

Scoring in the 3rd period would also be nice.

[jjgallow]

 

10 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

He was raised in New Jersey but grew up a Flyers fan.  I believe those are his two preferred destinations.

 

If we offer Gaudreau, then the sky is the limit.  He's a 99-point guy on a great contract.  My #1 target from Philly would be Carter Hart.  I think he's the real deal.  I'm also interested in Morgan Frost.

 

As far as NJ is concerned, I think everyone is available after a season like theirs except the #1 pick.

 

I'm with you on Carter Hart.    I do, however, feel we could get a bit more.     Carter is a huge risk.  Even though I agree.

 

It's hard when you trade a guy like Gaudreau, to get an even better player in return.

 

really hard.

 

simply because it's a short list.  but I think it could be done.      If you offer a bit more with it.  Maybe you make a push for Hughes, or similar (another prodigy available in 2020 draft)......    but now it's a multi-player deal.   It's an "overhaul".    to a point

[travel_dude]

This thread is annoying for one reason.

We just came off the best season in many many years.

Did it with questionable goaltending through half the year.

Did it with a rookie D-man jumping into the fire.

Did it without much from Bennett, Janko or Neal.

 

We sucked in the playoffs, not because we need to rebuild.

We crashed before the season ended.

 

Good teams don't trade their best players.

You make adjustments for the holes that appeared during the season.

If we had played as good in the first round as we had in January and February, we don;t lose this series.

But we didn't.

So fix the holes .

Take the experience as a coach and learn what you did wrong.

Trade for or sign players that can help this team, not try to replace our best players or go tanking.

[cccsberg]

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

I'm just watching the Sharks score 4-goals on one 5-minute powerplay in the third period to save their season.  The Flame just don't have this killer instinct.  When pushed to the wall, we just folded like a cheap suit.

 

 

That's a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence that we'll never see again.  Flames scored similar to that in the season, but 4 goals in 1 5min PP?  Never before in NHL history?  Oh, and btw, it was a crap call.  Should have been 2 mins at most.  Nice of the refs to single-handedly screw up a series and team's future.....

[phoenix66]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

This thread is annoying for one reason.

We just came off the best season in many many years.

Did it with questionable goaltending through half the year.

Did it with a rookie D-man jumping into the fire.

Did it without much from Bennett, Janko or Neal.

 

We sucked in the playoffs, not because we need to rebuild.

We crashed before the season ended.

 

Good teams don't trade their best players.

You make adjustments for the holes that appeared during the season.

If we had played as good in the first round as we had in January and February, we don;t lose this series.

But we didn't.

So fix the holes .

Take the experience as a coach and learn what you did wrong.

Trade for or sign players that can help this team, not try to replace our best players or go tanking.

I nearly totally agree. A level headed view of this season is good.

Many were hoping for a solid season, make the playoffs , that's a success. Win a round and we'd be overjoyed .in that sense we exceeded everybody's expectations.

In theory, if we could bring back the identical roster I'd be ok with that.

 

In reality faces have to change..that's just the way it is . Our goal now is to build on it and grow ..

 

I agree, this is not a blow it up, not by a longshot .

 

But.. the truth right now is to identify the collapse . Same question Tampa has to answer.

Vegas, Toronto, Nashville, Winnipeg, ..all have one thing in common.. they can say " a bounce here , a break here " stories .. 

Tampa and Calgary were never in it .. the biggest and maybe only common answer is complacency.. they clinched early, coasted in, and could not turn it on . When the other team pushed , they cracked and panicked.

 

For the most part, I've seen what should be seen from the players..they're mad, they're upset, they're in disbelief . They want answers from themselves ..  that's part of the growth, cuz if you don't want to feel that way again remember it when you're back there .

If ..and i say if ..cuz it's one story, a player is seemingly ok with this .. or isn't burned by this .. then they need to be identified and moved 

 

What I wanted to hear from Johnny,  after 1 point in 5 games is at least "I need to look at what went wrong" " I had chances that didn't go in, etc"   his comments come off to me as somebody who feels this was just bad luck..  if that is in fact the way he feels , he needs a wake up call

 

[robrob74]

I put it on Peters. 

He didn’t do anything to kickstart the first line. He tried the trick he used to get Frolik going by putting other players on the line but never stuck with the changes. 

 

Although he just outright didn’t like Frolik or Neal. Neal is understandable but Frolik? No one but the first line played very well to start the season. 

 

They couldve tried other plays plays with the first line as well. Try different looks.

[phoenix66]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I put it on Peters. 

He didn’t do anything to kickstart the first line. He tried the trick he used to get Frolik going by putting other players on the line but never stuck with the changes. 

 

Although he just outright didn’t like Frolik or Neal. Neal is understandable but Frolik? No one but the first line played very well to start the season. 

 

They couldve tried other plays plays with the first line as well. Try different looks.

Oh yes.. he wears this as well. Good news at least is the wheels are already spinning there .

Hes stated that next time , resting players not a good idea ..

He's taken some ownership of Neal, needing to get him in better position to succeed ..etc 

 

He's said many times during the season he had difficulty getting players to listen when they're winning..needs to overcome that. Granted that's a new experience for him . 

As you said , If the top line is flying, mix it up to get others going..  instead of letting johnny, or whoever pad the point totals in blowouts, throw a Neal or Bennett on that top line to get some confidence going etc.

I can see that he will definitely adjust 

[MAC331]

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

I'm just watching the Sharks score 4-goals on one 5-minute powerplay in the third period to save their season.  The Flame just don't have this killer instinct.  When pushed to the wall, we just folded like a cheap suit.

 

 

They have a tight group in SJ with some great Leadership. I see many fans under-estimate the importance and effect of experience in playoff hockey.

[MAC331]

6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

This thread is annoying for one reason.

We just came off the best season in many many years.

Did it with questionable goaltending through half the year.

Did it with a rookie D-man jumping into the fire.

Did it without much from Bennett, Janko or Neal.

 

We sucked in the playoffs, not because we need to rebuild.

We crashed before the season ended.

 

Good teams don't trade their best players.

You make adjustments for the holes that appeared during the season.

If we had played as good in the first round as we had in January and February, we don;t lose this series.

But we didn't.

So fix the holes .

Take the experience as a coach and learn what you did wrong.

Trade for or sign players that can help this team, not try to replace our best players or go tanking.

Look who initiated it. LOL