JTech780 Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 42 minutes ago, conundrumed said: What about my other point? If you are targeting a handful of teams at draft, as a player, why not be forthcoming? A team wastes a pick on you, so you can tuck it away as a, "last resort". As I said earlier, the appearance is deceit. Most of the players that go this route are drafted outside the 1st round or 2, how often do you think the team's are talking to players drafted in 3rd, 4th or 5th rounds. I would hazard to say that it isn't that often, even if it is it's not like the team's are telling the players that are planning on drafting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, stubblejumper1 said: I see your point, but what's to say the team would listen? It's an extreme example, but Quebec still drafted Lindros. Sports and the military are the only careers where your employer owns you. Opting out of that system doesn't bother me. That actually worked out beautifully for Quebec, I mean Colorado. They won 2 cups because of it. I didn't bother me Lindros never winning. I never minded the open ice Scott Stevens hits on Lindros either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubblejumper1 Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 38 minutes ago, conundrumed said: What about my other point? If you are targeting a handful of teams at draft, as a player, why not be forthcoming? A team wastes a pick on you, so you can tuck it away as a, "last resort". As I said earlier, the appearance is deceit. 16 minutes ago, CheersMan said: These punk kids are sneaking in the back door, the door of their choosing and the NHL is allowing it. Plus, teams are paying more for the brats than the honest kids coming in the front door. Meanwhile, the teams playing by the rules are being screwed out of player. The NHL owes these kids nothing other than an opportunity. You want an opportunity, come in the front door, not the back door. Fox was drafted in the third round in 2016. Only two players drafted in that round have played more than one game. These are generally marginal players. Not anything to get too excited about. Besides, this loophole is open to pretty much everyone. Nobody forced these kids to play in the CHL. Anyone good enough to be drafted in the higher rounds would have been good enough to get a scholarship to a US college Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 16 minutes ago, stubblejumper1 said: Sports and the military are the only careers where your employer owns you. Opting out of that system doesn't bother me. For housing and feeding you? And training you? Sounds like a compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 21 minutes ago, CheersMan said: These punk kids are sneaking in the back door, the door of their choosing and the NHL is allowing it. Plus, teams are paying more for the brats than the honest kids coming in the front door. Meanwhile, the teams playing by the rules are being screwed out of player. The NHL owes these kids nothing other than an opportunity. You want an opportunity, come in the front door, not the back door. Actually teams signing these players have to give them an entry level contract, so they can't pay more then the team that drafted the player. Do you make decisions that are best for your career? That's what these players are doing and they are doing it within the rules. These players are waiting 4 years after they are drafted for their opportunities. These are people who have to make the best choices for themselves, just like anyone else here would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 7 minutes ago, JTech780 said: Actually teams signing these players have to give them an entry level contract, so they can't pay more then the team that drafted the player. Do you make decisions that are best for your career? That's what these players are doing and they are doing it within the rules. These players are waiting 4 years after they are drafted for their opportunities. These are people who have to make the best choices for themselves, just like anyone else here would. I think Kevin Hayes got a pretty sweet bonus filled deal with NYR without ever seeing the minors. I think he came in the back door too? I have no problem with young guys staying in college. If the NHL allows them to become UFA's after such time then team that signs them should have to pay the team who owns their rights an equivalent draft pick, same as what the team spent on the player. That would solve the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 1 minute ago, CheersMan said: I think Kevin Hayes got a pretty sweet bonus filled deal with NYR without ever seeing the minors. I think he came in the back door too? I have no problem with young guys staying in college. If the NHL allows them to become UFA's after such time then team that signs them should have to pay the team who owns their rights an equivalent draft pick, same as what the team spent on the player. That would solve the issue. The amount of bonuses are limited in the ELC so the the team that drafted the player can give the same amount of bonuses. I wouldn't mind the draft pick compensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted March 31, 2019 Report Share Posted March 31, 2019 BT likely made the right call with Adam Fox...no point investing anymore development assets on him if he was being so indecisive. Still looking like one of the best trades in recent history..,plus those contract extension values are A+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 Looks like it’s official....Adam Fox will not be signing with the Canes. We officially have won this trade by a landslide....definitely one of the best trade wins in some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 15 minutes ago, rickross said: Looks like it’s official....Adam Fox will not be signing with the Canes. We officially have won this trade by a landslide....definitely one of the best trade wins in some time. If they can't re-sign Ferland, or for more than Lindholm, that 's a monster win. Taking your coach and signing Ryan...yet the Canes are doing well. It's been a nice pick play by BT so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 1 hour ago, rickross said: Looks like it’s official....Adam Fox will not be signing with the Canes. We officially have won this trade by a landslide....definitely one of the best trade wins in some time. They can recoup this by trading his rights before next year. I suppose they could trade his rights now to a non-playoff team like the Rags. Not that they deserve any better, but if he was a Flames prospect, he would be hard pressed to make the NHL for a few years. Making AHL money. I would have thought that the Canes would be able to find a spot for him this year. They probably told him nope they are set for the year. We don't have the inside news, but it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtownguy Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 On 2019-03-28 at 7:56 PM, CheersMan said: These punk kids are sneaking in the back door, the door of their choosing and the NHL is allowing it. Plus, teams are paying more for the brats than the honest kids coming in the front door. Meanwhile, the teams playing by the rules are being screwed out of player. The NHL owes these kids nothing other than an opportunity. You want an opportunity, come in the front door, not the back door. In the end, I think you have it. The NHL is a type of monopoly and creates the structures to incentivize behaviour. If player are taking advantage of existing rules, then the rules are flawed, not necessarily the player. It is pretty warped that there exists a draft containing potential employees who are prepared to refuse work. Maybe they need to actually say that you need to be willing to work, or you just don't. Siberia for you! Structures are the problem, not individuals. The old days of handshakes is over. Players know that they are not humans to the owners, they are economic assets. This is why they always say that "it is a business". The owners know that they are the fat cats and can make money off of these guys. So, I am not sure that there can be much loyalty from either side before a player actually joins the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 25 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said: In the end, I think you have it. The NHL is a type of monopoly and creates the structures to incentivize behaviour. If player are taking advantage of existing rules, then the rules are flawed, not necessarily the player. It is pretty warped that there exists a draft containing potential employees who are prepared to refuse work. Maybe they need to actually say that you need to be willing to work, or you just don't. Siberia for you! Structures are the problem, not individuals. The old days of handshakes is over. Players know that they are not humans to the owners, they are economic assets. This is why they always say that "it is a business". The owners know that they are the fat cats and can make money off of these guys. So, I am not sure that there can be much loyalty from either side before a player actually joins the team. I agree with all of this. Anytime you have an agreement in place where one side or the other feels like they are getting shafted then it is an unhealthy agreement. I suspect this could be an issue on the next CBA. Maybe not. Player is not breaking any rules, he is only taking advantage of his options, I just don’t like the optics of it. I feel for CAR in the most recent case. Always seems to be the US kids. Has a CDN player ever refused to sign in a similar situation? Lindros was different, he just refused to sign and demanded trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amander Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 Make it official Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sak22 Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 1 hour ago, CheersMan said: Always seems to be the US kids. Has a CDN player ever refused to sign in a similar situation? Justin Schultz, Alexander Kerfoot and Corban Knight are some that come to mind. Although Knight never hit free agency he made it known he wasn't going to sign with Florida, Feaster did the dumb thing of trading something for someone who may have come here on his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 1 hour ago, CheersMan said: I agree with all of this. Anytime you have an agreement in place where one side or the other feels like they are getting shafted then it is an unhealthy agreement. I suspect this could be an issue on the next CBA. Maybe not. Player is not breaking any rules, he is only taking advantage of his options, I just don’t like the optics of it. I feel for CAR in the most recent case. Always seems to be the US kids. Has a CDN player ever refused to sign in a similar situation? Lindros was different, he just refused to sign and demanded trade. I don’t really feel for The Canes on this one, they took a gamble on a known risk and lost. They also gave up on 2 of their best prospects who grew into franchise players!..and now they regret it. They knew what they had, that’s why they feeling a bit butt hurt lol. It’s like they say..Ones ‘trash’ is another one’s treasure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 12 hours ago, rickross said: I don’t really feel for The Canes on this one, they took a gamble on a known risk and lost. They also gave up on 2 of their best prospects who grew into franchise players!..and now they regret it. They knew what they had, that’s why they feeling a bit butt hurt lol. It’s like they say..Ones ‘trash’ is another one’s treasure! I'm not sure CAR feels the way you portray them. New owner wanted changes and the trade with CAL only looks great because of how Lindholm has turned out. I would say Hamilton is a better player than Hanifin at this juncture and Lindholm turned out better than Ferland. Both Hamilton and Ferland had a good season with their team making the playoffs. Fox was likely a throw in on BT's part being he was the one talking to his agent. Hamilton was a problem child here and had to go, it was Ferland who was the sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted April 2, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 The Canes still made the playoffs when many thought they'd be a lottery team so this trade is turning out to be win/win for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 1 hour ago, The_People1 said: The Canes still made the playoffs when many thought they'd be a lottery team so this trade is turning out to be win/win for both sides. Did they? BJ's only 2 points up on the Habs. Canes one point up on the Habs. They play the Leafs tonight. MTL plays the Bolts, but the Bolt could game the system to get MTL into the playoffs. BJ's play BOS. Two of three will make it, just not sure who does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 27 minutes ago, travel_dude said: Did they? BJ's only 2 points up on the Habs. Canes one point up on the Habs. They play the Leafs tonight. MTL plays the Bolts, but the Bolt could game the system to get MTL into the playoffs. BJ's play BOS. Two of three will make it, just not sure who does. Montreal is 1pt back of Carolina and two behind Columbus. Columbus - 94 Points Carolina - 93 Points Montreal - 92 Points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted April 2, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 1 hour ago, travel_dude said: Did they? BJ's only 2 points up on the Habs. Canes one point up on the Habs. They play the Leafs tonight. MTL plays the Bolts, but the Bolt could game the system to get MTL into the playoffs. BJ's play BOS. Two of three will make it, just not sure who does. 30 minutes ago, robrob74 said: Montreal is 1pt back of Carolina and two behind Columbus. Columbus - 94 Points Carolina - 93 Points Montreal - 92 Points Hah! They're so in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted April 3, 2019 Report Share Posted April 3, 2019 7 hours ago, The_People1 said: The Canes still made the playoffs when many thought they'd be a lottery team so this trade is turning out to be win/win for both sides. It’s a win in the sense they’ll likely qualify but they wanted Fox to help offset losing Hanifin. Dougie Hamilton May have already peaked in his career plus he’s due for an extension....he could also sign elsewhere come free agency. I think Fox was a key part of the deal for the Canes. They still recoup something via trade but I’d imagine they consider doing that trade over again now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted April 4, 2019 Report Share Posted April 4, 2019 I'm with Peeps on this one, i think this trade is more of a win-win than most want to admit. Obviously you love the cost certainty aspect the Flames but the Canes really need to win now and I think this trade made them that much better in the short term. Both teams got what they wanted ultimately i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubblejumper1 Posted April 5, 2019 Report Share Posted April 5, 2019 On 2019-04-01 at 7:09 PM, CheersMan said: I agree with all of this. Anytime you have an agreement in place where one side or the other feels like they are getting shafted then it is an unhealthy agreement. I suspect this could be an issue on the next CBA. Maybe not. Player is not breaking any rules, he is only taking advantage of his options, I just don’t like the optics of it. I feel for CAR in the most recent case. Always seems to be the US kids. Has a CDN player ever refused to sign in a similar situation? Lindros was different, he just refused to sign and demanded trade. Jaret Stoll refused to sign with the Flames and then re-entered the draft. He was coming from the WHL, but same idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted April 5, 2019 Report Share Posted April 5, 2019 1 hour ago, stubblejumper1 said: Jaret Stoll refused to sign with the Flames and then re-entered the draft. He was coming from the WHL, but same idea. I don’t remember that one. Wiki says Flames had a last minute trade deal in place to move Stoll to the Leafs but the fax never went thru to the league in time and deal was nullified. Stoll re-entered the draft and was drafted a second time by the Oilers 2 years after his first draft. Things worked out for Stoll I’m more ways than one. Thanks for pointing that one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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