Calgary Flames Drafting and Development: Your Analysis

[MAC331]

Yes, absolutely correct.  And who is Bollig bumping off the roster?  Unfortunate but that's the reality.  We have to hope BT can make some deals, and hold onto the best of the prospects till things open up.

I don't know if management wants him back but I think Grant would be wise to sign back on to play in Stockton. He would be a good 4th line C to replace Stajan either if injured or traded at the TDL.

[MAC331]

I think that's a pretty hairy eyeball way of looking at it ccc.

The useable pieces you list are 10 minute/gm guys. You can't keep everyone. Consider Poirier, Klimchuk, F. Hamilton, Hathaway are the guys you keep, I'd let all of those guys go. We've had a good run at drafting so guys become disposable, sad but true.

D is a bad place though. It is stagnant due to contracts.

I believe our guys coming up, Kulak, Wotherspoon, even the older Nakladal, should have spots available. But lo and behold, Kylington, Hickey, Mattson etc are now going to be 2 yrs closer.

I don't mind BT's approach in the forward ranks. We needed size on the right, who was it, David Jones?

Need vet presence too, it might gum up the forward ranks, fine imho.

Can't argue how BT solved G. That alone is gold. Quality netminding at below value to buy a year. Very nice.

The D is a quagmire of way too much money that HAS to get balanced.

You HAVE to slot Wideman and Smid at almost $9mil.

That makes for being very prohibitive for the 23 yo's. $2mil spots for $9mil, owweee...

I think it also needs to be mentioned that perhaps management sees this rebuild right on schedule. This year will be the main clear out year of the expensive contracts, the youth have another full development year and we see them on the 2017/18 roster still well supported. We will also see the money more properly allocated throughout the roster. We are getting there.

[cross16]

The top-level prospects, yes, but I'm not so sure about the mid-level or lower guys.  The only ones I can think of are Jooris and Ferland, both who got a chance 2 years ago and last year, respectively.  That doesn't really sound like a team "giving youth a chance"  There hasn't been a defenceman in years (Hamilton was a 3 year vet when we got him), and goalies?  Last year doesn't really qualify as "a chance" for Ortio.   It has been especially galling to see many over-the-hill vets brought in which has gummed up the works and saddled the team with temporary contracts, and some of the LT contracts signed a few years back that we are still waiting to clear.  Management mis-judged the development and impact of the top-level prospect's we've been able to bring in who have taken off like rockets, dragged down by excess vet baggage that we can't cut loose.  I think directly as a result we've lost some pretty useable pieces, like Byron, Arnold, Agostino, Jooris and even Colborne.  That's the way it goes, but hopefully management has learned some lessons and it changes going forward.  Certainly at this point it appears to be the case, but unfortunately there still is most of the summer and who knows whether BT signs another 2-3 guys?

 

 

The problem here, is you are into a chicken or the egg argument. Are the mid tier guys not getting chances or are the mid tier guys just not good enough to warrant a change? Did Ortio deserve more of a chance then he got last year? Did Agostino/Bill Arnold warrant more of a chance than they got?

 

I agree with kehatch that IMO the Flames have done a really good job the last 4-5 years of opening up spots to prospects to step up and earn a spot, and they've done a good job of dangling the carrot too. Yes, contract likes Bolig, Stajan, Wideman arnt good but the reality is every team int he NHL has anchor contracts, its unrealistic to think that you can go into every season with a clear bottom 6 or bottom D pairing ready for kids to make the jump. As long as there is a spot or 2 for youth to fight for, you've got a GM doing a good job IMO. 

 

I get this displeasure with the Stajan, Bolig contracts, but I think people are forgetting the Flames are stil one of the younger teams in the league, IIRC, and had by far the most production out of their younger core last year than any team in the league. 

[xstrike]

I don't know if management wants him back but I think Grant would be wise to sign back on to play in Stockton. He would be a good 4th line C to replace Stajan either if injured or traded at the TDL.

Grant's been signed by the Sabers for next year. I do want to see a few moves for some AHL centers, but those will hardly be anchor deals.

[travel_dude]

Grant's been signed by the Sabers for next year. I do want to see a few moves for some AHL centers, but those will hardly be anchor deals.

 

Grant was looking for a one-way deal with the Flames.  I think he was looked at the same way Shore was; go enough for the AHL, not quite good enough for the NHL.  The Sabres signed him to a 2-way deal.  I doubt he cracks the roster unless major injuries occur.

[rickross]

I agree, I think one of the biggest improvements the Flames have made is transitioning young players. Since the Sutter Regime its been a complete 180. I think the cupboards have been filled with quality prospects quicker than most anticipated and now we have this healthy logjam of prospects. If anything I really want the Flames to finally have a competitive AHL team. It'll make all the difference in creating that winning culture the Flames have been trying to cultivate. It will be interesting to see how this years draft turns out in hindsight it seems like we may have landed some more future pieces. 

[cccsberg]

I agree, I think one of the biggest improvements the Flames have made is transitioning young players. Since the Sutter Regime its been a complete 180. I think the cupboards have been filled with quality prospects quicker than most anticipated and now we have this healthy logjam of prospects. If anything I really want the Flames to finally have a competitive AHL team. It'll make all the difference in creating that winning culture the Flames have been trying to cultivate. It will be interesting to see how this years draft turns out in hindsight it seems like we may have landed some more future pieces. 

One of the problems with the Stockton team is so much youth transitioning, and the resultant team that is very young.  Of course, massive injuries at key positions, like G don't help either.

[MAC331]

One of the problems with the Stockton team is so much youth transitioning, and the resultant team that is very young.  Of course, massive injuries at key positions, like G don't help either.

It will be interesting to see how BT fills out the Stockton roster.

[robrob1974]

I want Jankowski to make the NHL but I also want him to play in the AHL to create further development for other players. Someone Playing with better players makes them better. Poirier and Shinkurak would get top minutes with Jankowsku and I think it helps all three. Then the subsequent lines slot where they should be and development happens at the proper pace.

When our team gets fuller, it could get better in the A. Hoping that happens.

[cccsberg]

It will be interesting to see how BT fills out the Stockton roster.

Yes, very definitely.  They could use some vets to provide experience and stability, but then again I wouldn't mind if a couple of Development Camp invites got a contract either.  And re-signing Arnold and Shore wouldn't be all that bad as well.  

 

I am wondering if all signings have been put on hold until after the Gaudreau-Monahan signings are done?  It would make some sense, since they might impact available dollars.... 

[MAC331]

Yes, very definitely.  They could use some vets to provide experience and stability, but then again I wouldn't mind if a couple of Development Camp invites got a contract either.  And re-signing Arnold and Shore wouldn't be all that bad as well.  

 

I am wondering if all signings have been put on hold until after the Gaudreau-Monahan signings are done?  It would make some sense, since they might impact available dollars.... 

I wouldn't think Gaudreau or Monahan's contracts are going to effect anything for filling out Stockton. I think it is just another one of those fallout times for seeing who got signed with QOs and who did not. I have a feeling BT is waiting to take advantage.

[cccsberg]

I wouldn't think Gaudreau or Monahan's contracts are going to effect anything for filling out Stockton. I think it is just another one of those fallout times for seeing who got signed with QOs and who did not. I have a feeling BT is waiting to take advantage.

I guess the only thing I am wondering is if he tries to get another 1-2 players on 2-ways for the Flames, it may impact overall Cap, and he's waiting.  As far as our Camp Invites go, you'd think we would have first chance to sign them so unless he's sent out some TC invites and its not announced yet, I'd expect the longer we wait, the less chance any of those guys actually sign with us.

[travel_dude]

Yes, very definitely.  They could use some vets to provide experience and stability, but then again I wouldn't mind if a couple of Development Camp invites got a contract either.  And re-signing Arnold and Shore wouldn't be all that bad as well.  

 

I am wondering if all signings have been put on hold until after the Gaudreau-Monahan signings are done?  It would make some sense, since they might impact available dollars.... 

 

I can's say for certainty, but a lot of the invites would not be able to play in  the AHL this year.  The Flames do have the contract space to sign some of them, but their contracts wouldn't count anyway against the limit if they slide.

 

I think the guys let walk were mostly fringe NHL'ers at best.  If they were re=signed, they would be for two-way deals.  It's not really fair to guys like Shore or Arnold since there is no real progression for them to the NHL on the Flames.

 

What you will see is some AHL vet players being signed on AHL only deals.  Maybe a tough guy or two.  We are lacking a captain right now.  Who do we have there that could fill that role?  Usually it tends to be a career AHL'er.  Candidates might be Janko, Klimchuk or Hamilton.

[MAC331]

I can's say for certainty, but a lot of the invites would not be able to play in  the AHL this year.  The Flames do have the contract space to sign some of them, but their contracts wouldn't count anyway against the limit if they slide.

 

I think the guys let walk were mostly fringe NHL'ers at best.  If they were re=signed, they would be for two-way deals.  It's not really fair to guys like Shore or Arnold since there is no real progression for them to the NHL on the Flames.

 

What you will see is some AHL vet players being signed on AHL only deals.  Maybe a tough guy or two.  We are lacking a captain right now.  Who do we have there that could fill that role?  Usually it tends to be a career AHL'er.  Candidates might be Janko, Klimchuk or Hamilton.

Considering what Jooris ended up signing for with NYR I find it hard to believe he couldn't get a deal done here. Especially with BT releasing Grant, Arnold and Shore. Jooris at 800k would have been a very good 13th or 14th player to have around.

[travel_dude]

Considering what Jooris ended up signing for with NYR I find it hard to believe he couldn't get a deal done here. Especially with BT releasing Grant, Arnold and Shore. Jooris at 800k would have been a very good 13th or 14th player to have around.

 

Brouwer and Johnson took up most of the available cap.  We have just $14.9m to get Johnny and Monahan signed.  If you average it out to $7m each, that left $900k.  Jooris made more than that last year.  And they still have designs of adding at least one NHL player.

 

As much as BT can go over the cap by Smid's salary, I don't think BT wants to be in that game.  So, neither Jooris nor Nakladal would be signed while the top 2 players remain unsigned. 

[cross16]

Considering what Jooris ended up signing for with NYR I find it hard to believe he couldn't get a deal done here. Especially with BT releasing Grant, Arnold and Shore. Jooris at 800k would have been a very good 13th or 14th player to have around.

 

Jooris played at Union College which is in the New York area and a drive away from New York. It wouldn't surprise me at all that if the money was similar, Jooris picked the Rangers instead of the Flames.

[MAC331]

Jooris played at Union College which is in the New York area and a drive away from New York. It wouldn't surprise me at all that if the money was similar, Jooris picked the Rangers instead of the Flames.

I did not know that so it makes sense. THX

[travel_dude]

Jooris played at Union College which is in the New York area and a drive away from New York. It wouldn't surprise me at all that if the money was similar, Jooris picked the Rangers instead of the Flames.

He is from Burlington Ontario, and his family still lives there.  Closer, for sure, but I don't know that he has many friends still in the area.

[kehatch]

Looking at last season we were weak in a couple of areas.

We lacked goaltending. Elliott and Johnson fix that.

We had a shortage of top 9 (and 6) forwards. Brouwer and a more experienced Bennett hopefully fix that.

The remaining issue is the poor quality of our depth at forward and at D. I think the Flames are making a conscious effort of changing out or depth players. Thst includes peripheral guys like Jones, Russell, and Hudler. It also includes our bottom half guys like Colborne and Jooris. To a lesser extent it includes making space in the minors for NHL depth guys like Vey (along with the prospects graduating to pro).

I think this work will continue through the summer and Fall as Treliving attempts to move out bad contracts.

[cross16]

Looking at last season we were weak in a couple of areas.

We lacked goaltending. Elliott and Johnson fix that.

We had a shortage of top 9 (and 6) forwards. Brouwer and a more experienced Bennett hopefully fix that.

The remaining issue is the poor quality of our depth at forward and at D. I think the Flames are making a conscious effort of changing out or depth players. Thst includes peripheral guys like Jones, Russell, and Hudler. It also includes our bottom half guys like Colborne and Jooris. To a lesser extent it includes making space in the minors for NHL depth guys like Vey (along with the prospects graduating to pro).

I think this work will continue through the summer and Fall as Treliving attempts to move out bad contracts.

 

I agree. I think Treliving and co would love to rework the bottom 6 and I think that is part of the reason you see them moving on from Colborne/Jooris etc. Irregardless of the individual skill sets, the reality is the bottom 6 for the Flames last year was pretty terrible so I think they know they need changes. Jooris and Colborne are usefull players in their own right, but when you are at the bottom of the league you can't return the same roster the next season. 

 

however, I also don't think they can do too much there until Mony/Johnny sign and/or they can move out money. i think there are some interesting depth options out there but the money is basically gone right now and space is limited. Hopefully more moves can be done but if Treliving can't move out guys like Bouma/Stajan or Wideman I think he is going to have a hard time upgrading the bottom 6 using external assets. 

[travel_dude]

I agree. I think Treliving and co would love to rework the bottom 6 and I think that is part of the reason you see them moving on from Colborne/Jooris etc. Irregardless of the individual skill sets, the reality is the bottom 6 for the Flames last year was pretty terrible so I think they know they need changes. Jooris and Colborne are usefull players in their own right, but when you are at the bottom of the league you can't return the same roster the next season. 

 

however, I also don't think they can do too much there until Mony/Johnny sign and/or they can move out money. i think there are some interesting depth options out there but the money is basically gone right now and space is limited. Hopefully more moves can be done but if Treliving can't move out guys like Bouma/Stajan or Wideman I think he is going to have a hard time upgrading the bottom 6 using external assets. 

 

Bouma and Stajan limit the ability to change the 4th line, both from their contracts and their game.  Maybe they can be reworked elsewhere in the lineup, but I think BT needs to move on from them.  $5.4m paid to two 4th liners just doesn't work.  

[kehatch]

Looking at the top 6 we have something like

Gaudreau-Monahan-Brouwer

Bennett-Backlund-Frolik

Looking at the bottom 6 we are roughly

Ferland-Stajan-?????

Bouma-?????-????

Bollig,????

Chiasson, Hamilton, Hathaway, Jankowski, Shinkaruk, Vey, Poirier, Pribyl, and Pollock are all in the mix for spots.

Of the established bottom 6 guys the only one I like is Ferland. I would be perfectly happy with gutting the bottom 6 (minus Ferland) and filling it with the list of prospects, trades, or free agent pickups.

[MAC331]

Bouma and Stajan limit the ability to change the 4th line, both from their contracts and their game.  Maybe they can be reworked elsewhere in the lineup, but I think BT needs to move on from them.  $5.4m paid to two 4th liners just doesn't work.  

Are we not just rehashing the same things we know have to happen eventually ? By the sounds of things I don't expect any one of these 3 to be gone and may not be until the TDL. Also there would be nothing wrong with going into the season with what we have right now. There is to many things going on with all our forward lines to even begin talking top 6 or top 9 or simple the best 12, it remains a work in progress and to be determined.

Looking at the top 6 we have something like

Gaudreau-Monahan-Brouwer

Bennett-Backlund-Frolik

Looking at the bottom 6 we are roughly

Ferland-Stajan-?????

Bouma-?????-????

Bollig,????

Chiasson, Hamilton, Hathaway, Jankowski, Shinkaruk, Vey, Poirier, Pribyl, and Pollock are all in the mix for spots.

Of the established bottom 6 guys the only one I like is Ferland. I would be perfectly happy with gutting the bottom 6 (minus Ferland) and filling it with the list of prospects, trades, or free agent pickups.

Why would they make the same mistake again with Bennett at LW, the player is a C and this is what's best for the team going forward.

[travel_dude]

Are we not just rehashing the same things we know have to happen eventually ? By the sounds of things I don't expect any one of these 3 to be gone and may not be until the TDL. Also there would be nothing wrong with going into the season with what we have right now. There is to many things going on with all our forward lines to even begin talking top 6 or top 9 or simple the best 12, it remains a work in progress and to be determined.

 

I think it's fair to say none of us have any idea of what October's roster looks like.  The problems and constraints are well known.  I also think it is pretty obvious that salary and output are a pretty big concern.  

[kehatch]

Are we not just rehashing the same things we know have to happen eventually ? By the sounds of things I don't expect any one of these 3 to be gone and may not be until the TDL. Also there would be nothing wrong with going into the season with what we have right now. There is to many things going on with all our forward lines to even begin talking top 6 or top 9 or simple the best 12, it remains a work in progress and to be determined.

Why would they make the same mistake again with Bennett at LW, the player is a C and this is what's best for the team going forward.

I was just splitting up our top 6 and bottom 6 players, not necessarily putting together line combinations. That said, Bennett produced at wing and he did not at centre. He wouldn't be the first high profile centre to be moved to the wing on the NHL.