Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[The_People1]

5 minutes ago, rickross said:

The fact that Johnny is now married and expecting a child is not an excuse, it’s a simple fact. His priorities have changed since last year, no dancing around that. The players are human beings let’s try and keep that in mind. What if Johnny refused to enter negotiations last summer ? That still BT’s fault? Johnny is an American , he didn’t grow up in Calgary…he wanted to play closer to his family in the US…but I guess thats Trelivings fault too! It’s a 2 way street! Johnny is also to blame for the stalemate and our current situation…he could have clearly communicated he wasn’t staying no matter the offer and saved this waste of a process. It’s a tough blow but Tre was in a tough position, u can’t sign players without their consent. Clearly JH didn’t want to be here anymore he just waited until the last minute to be forthcoming about it. 
 

Go ahead and fire BT and then who do u suggest to replace him? What GM would magically have gotten JH to stay ? I’ll wait!

Im not going to overreact until I see what the contingency plan is. If this team is less than adequate come next season then BT deserves all the blame until let’s see how this plays out. 

 

No.  Point was, BT could've traded Gaudreau without a firm commitment last summer.  

[rickross]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

No.  Point was, BT could've traded Gaudreau without a firm commitment last summer.  

It’s all coulda, woulda , shoulda in hindsight! We’re you out here advocating to trade JH all of last season ?….or we’re enjoying him help propel the team into the playoffs? We all know BT isn’t trade shy, if he knew the situation was an untenable one he’d have made the proper arrangements at this time. I genuinely believe the Flames FELT they had a solid chance to sign him..clearly they weren’t giving reason to otherwise. Besides BT never promised anything…but Craig Conroy sure did over national tv at that! He promised “he’d get it done!”…even referred to himself as “Santa Claus handing out contracts”. Don’t think that level of over confidence helped our chances any. Losing Johnny sucks but the organization has to move forward and build from this. This could become a very positive thing in time 

[robrob74]

13 minutes ago, rickross said:

The fact that Johnny is now married and expecting a child is not an excuse, it’s a simple fact. His priorities have changed since last year, no dancing around that. The players are human beings let’s try and keep that in mind. What if Johnny refused to enter negotiations last summer ? That still BT’s fault? Johnny is an American , he didn’t grow up in Calgary…he wanted to play closer to his family in the US…but I guess thats Trelivings fault too! It’s a 2 way street! Johnny is also to blame for the stalemate and our current situation…he could have clearly communicated he wasn’t staying no matter the offer and saved this waste of a process. It’s a tough blow but Tre was in a tough position, u can’t sign players without their consent. Clearly JH didn’t want to be here anymore he just waited until the last minute to be forthcoming about it. 
 

Go ahead and fire BT and then who do u suggest to replace him? What GM would magically have gotten JH to stay ? I’ll wait!

Im not going to overreact until I see what the contingency plan is. If this team is less than adequate come next season then BT deserves all the blame until let’s see how this plays out. 

 

i get that, but we always said he’s so connected to his family and roots in that area that it’s a huge risk. And because things changed our ideas around that risk are discounted? 

[robrob74]

Just now, rickross said:

It’s all coulda, woulda , shoulda in hindsight! We’re you out here advocating to trade JH all of last season ?….or we’re enjoying him help propel the team into the playoffs? We all know BT isn’t trade shy, if he knew the situation was an untenable one he’d have made the proper arrangements at this time. I genuinely believe the Flames FELT they had a solid chance to sign him..clearly they weren’t giving reason to otherwise. Besides BT never promised anything…but Craig Conroy sure did over national tv at that! He promised “he’d get it done!”…even referred to himself as “Santa Claus handing out contracts”. Don’t think that level of over confidence helped our chances any. Losing Johnny sucks but the organization has to move forward and build from this. This could become a very positive thing in time 

but we are saying, we called to move him then. It was should’ve and would’ve if we could’ve back then if we were the GMs. There are about three or four of us who’ve been on the trade Johnny train for flight risks over the last 3 years. And then it was there’s still time, he loves Calgary, family is ok with Calgary… in that sense everyone else is playing hindsight too. It’s whatever side of hindsight you live in…

[rickross]

Just now, robrob74 said:

 

i get that, but we always said he’s so connected to his family and roots in that area that it’s a huge risk. And because things changed our ideas around that risk are discounted? 

There are always risks involved and there are no guarantees, it’s why they negotiate. Johnny Gaudreau didn’t want to be a Calgary Flame anymore, sadly he waited until the last minute to state as much. And here we are now. It’s a failure on the organization not being better prepared but it also falls on the player for failing or delaying to state his true intentions and ultimately handcuffing the franchise 

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, rickross said:

It’s all coulda, woulda , shoulda in hindsight! We’re you out here advocating to trade JH all of last season ?….or we’re enjoying him help propel the team into the playoffs? We all know BT isn’t trade shy, if he knew the situation was an untenable one he’d have made the proper arrangements at this time. I genuinely believe the Flames FELT they had a solid chance to sign him..clearly they weren’t giving reason to otherwise. Besides BT never promised anything…but Craig Conroy sure did over national tv at that! He promised “he’d get it done!”…even referred to himself as “Santa Claus handing out contracts”. Don’t think that level of over confidence helped our chances any. Losing Johnny sucks but the organization has to move forward and build from this. This could become a very positive thing in time 

I was, even about 10 games into the season, maybe more… I was also very hesitant that the flames would do well in the playoffs and got in Satoshi Nakamoto for saying this part of their game is creeping in and it’s not good…

 

you’re right. I hoped after last season Johnny would have felt a great season would have changed his mind… if it were up to me, I’d have traded him at the deadline, but we went for it. I hoped Toffoli would’ve been good. Cross was right about needing another playmaker. It was the downfall….

 

but I was always thinking he’d go

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, rickross said:

There are always risks involved and there are no guarantees, it’s why they negotiate. Johnny Gaudreau didn’t want to be a Calgary Flame anymore, sadly he waited until the last minute to state as much. And here we are now. It’s a failure on the organization not being better prepared but it also falls on the player for failing or delaying to state his true intentions and ultimately handcuffing the franchise 

 

ya, and it’s why we are remembering how we wanted to trade him years ago. 
 

i believed we could make the conference finals but always knew it could be  a poor playoff… it’s historically how the core played. I played the belief game because a lot on here feel it’s best to jump on. Maybe I watch the team with a fine comb too often and sift through the way they play too often.

[MP5029]

BT needs to go…he’s missed out on a lot of very good and reasonable priced players after loosing Gaudreau his little adds are noting more than depth…

 

if he signs Kadri for a ton than he needs the heave ho! 

[robrob74]

Rick,

 

you’re right, it is a failure on the organization. There is no replacement yet for him and none in UFA. The only way to figure that out is through trade. And how much does a player like that cost on the trade market?

 

we haven’t drafted well enough to have a replacement. It’s hard to find where we draft typically and he was a great find. But we haven’t filled 2 holes before FA, and now Johnny leaving has created a 3rd hole.

[jjgallow]

To call to fire BT does not mean he is a horrible person or that we wish bad things on him.   Being a GM is hard.  Sometimes you have to do things which are unpopular. 

 

I don't think BT will be fired,  not until the inevitable outcome plays out of him trying to right the ship and discovering the full depth of how he's squandered our future.    What that will look and feel like for us.   Only then, unfortunately. 

 

Nobody is criticizing him for trying to retain an asset.   

 

The criticism is that he held onto our most valuable asset when we all knew for the last 5 years that this asset was leaving because he literally said he was and then it was hushed.

 

He gambled with our future when odds were below 50% at very best.   And  it's not his first time, which is why our prospect and pick cupboard is bare.

 

[The_People1]

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

And that is my question. I could be wrong here as i'm basing this mostly on what I hear and how it appears the club operates but the key question for me is that. Would a new GM do anything differently?

 

If they wouldn't then it's hard for me to blame this all on the GM. 

 

 

Just now, sak22 said:

I always try to put myself in others situations before rushing to criticize their mistakes.  How much job security did BT have going into this season?  My guess is a missed playoffs this year would've ended his tenure, so a Gaudreau trade last summer has to be one that keeps the team competitive.  Not easy to get a 2nd job when the results of the first one are mediocre.  Now we shift to ownership, its to say rebuild but we aren't paying the bills, no fans for a year and half a building for a good portion this year, rebuild isn't going to sell the 12k tickets that they can't sell now.  Tough spot to be in, but a small market team probably needs to take an approach like a Tampa Bay Ray's or Oakland A's approach and always develop then sell.

 

That's absolutely true.

 

Ownership is acting like it's a privilege to play and live in Calgary, which, is in the eye of the beholder.  And ownership fails to realize we are a small market team that will struggle to keep and attract players.

 

I dunno man, look at Kevin Cheveldayoff in Winnipeg.  His message is clear.  If Dubios is not committed long term then they going to full rebuild... Because future is more important than short term.

 

Carolina as well.  Always put emphasis on the next crop of kids coming up the system.  Never let good assets go for nothing.  Self imposed cap ceiling.  Etc.

[The_People1]

21 minutes ago, rickross said:

It’s all coulda, woulda , shoulda in hindsight! We’re you out here advocating to trade JH all of last season ?….or we’re enjoying him help propel the team into the playoffs? We all know BT isn’t trade shy, if he knew the situation was an untenable one he’d have made the proper arrangements at this time. I genuinely believe the Flames FELT they had a solid chance to sign him..clearly they weren’t giving reason to otherwise. Besides BT never promised anything…but Craig Conroy sure did over national tv at that! He promised “he’d get it done!”…even referred to himself as “Santa Claus handing out contracts”. Don’t think that level of over confidence helped our chances any. Losing Johnny sucks but the organization has to move forward and build from this. This could become a very positive thing in time 

 

I proposed we trade him at the TDL if he doesn't commit to the Flames long term.  I was salivating at the haul we could get... But I understand the team's path to the Conference Finals was clear... Didn't think we wouldn't even get that far.  Of course I wanted to trade Gaudreau last summer.  Same with Tkachuk.. I wanted to move Tkachuk for Eichel so we could have a #1B Center.

[robrob74]

24 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

That's absolutely true.

 

Ownership is acting like it's a privilege to play and live in Calgary, which, is in the eye of the beholder.  And ownership fails to realize we are a small market team that will struggle to keep and attract players.

 

I dunno man, look at Kevin Cheveldayoff in Winnipeg.  His message is clear.  If Dubios is not committed long term then they going to full rebuild... Because future is more important than short term.

 

Carolina as well.  Always put emphasis on the next crop of kids coming up the system.  Never let good assets go for nothing.  Self imposed cap ceiling.  Etc.

carolina is proof that intentionality is important. You can be good, draft well and make the playoffs and continue to retool through good drafting… 

 

we on the other hand spend money where it shouldn’t be spent. 3rd and 4th lines and then lowball the guys who deserve it. Although, I like paying guys less so it’s a catch-22

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

No.  Point was, BT could've traded Gaudreau without a firm commitment last summer.  

 

2019 was when we found out he would never have playoff success (on top of wanting to leave).  He was also worth an unbelievable amount then.

 

Not long ago a straight up trade of Gaudrau for Makar, actually from here with family,  would have been seen here as a huge loss on  our side.

[cross16]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

carolina is proof that intentionality is important. You can be good, draft well and make the playoffs and continue to retool through good drafting… 

 

we on the other hand spend money where it shouldn’t be spent. 3rd and 4th lines and then lowball the guys who deserve it. Although, I like paying guys less so it’s a catch-22

 

Such as? This isn't very factual. 

[rickross]

4 hours ago, robrob74 said:

Rick,

 

you’re right, it is a failure on the organization. There is no replacement yet for him and none in UFA. The only way to figure that out is through trade. And how much does a player like that cost on the trade market?

 

we haven’t drafted well enough to have a replacement. It’s hard to find where we draft typically and he was a great find. But we haven’t filled 2 holes before FA, and now Johnny leaving has created a 3rd hole.

We’re both right! This is a really messed up situation, I mean they COULD have traded him at the TDL but that would have derailed our playoff chances so a trade didn’t make much sense at the time. I’m sure BT tried to start negotiations earlier but no way JH would undersell his value going into a contract year. Of course he puts up career numbers to boot. 
 

We all saw in the playoffs how much this team lacked playmakers, let alone elite players. Losing Johnny is an absolute stomp on the gonads of this organization BUT…this has to bring out the best from this organization. You can see the glaring holes and just how little star power this team has developed or attracted over the years. Now we’re going to get the “Workmen” version of the Flames. No Flash…no more danglin’…just some hard and honest hockey. It might work but it won’t be pretty. If anything this should only whip this entire organization into shape. Keep in mind the impact of losing a player of Johnnys caliber doesn’t exactly help sell an “exciting team” looking for a new arena 

[flames for life]

5 hours ago, rickross said:

The fact that Johnny is now married and expecting a child is not an excuse, it’s a simple fact. His priorities have changed since last year, no dancing around that. The players are human beings let’s try and keep that in mind. What if Johnny refused to enter negotiations last summer ? That still BT’s fault? Johnny is an American , he didn’t grow up in Calgary…he wanted to play closer to his family in the US…but I guess thats Trelivings fault too! It’s a 2 way street! Johnny is also to blame for the stalemate and our current situation…he could have clearly communicated he wasn’t staying no matter the offer and saved this waste of a process. It’s a tough blow but Tre was in a tough position, u can’t sign players without their consent. Clearly JH didn’t want to be here anymore he just waited until the last minute to be forthcoming about it. 
 

Go ahead and fire BT and then who do u suggest to replace him? What GM would magically have gotten JH to stay ? I’ll wait!

Im not going to overreact until I see what the contingency plan is. If this team is less than adequate come next season then BT deserves all the blame until let’s see how this plays out. 

My thoughts exactly!!

[Heartbreaker]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

Man are there some bad takes being thrown around here, yikes. We honestly think Gaudreau waited 6 years to 'stick" it back to the Flames. I've also been told it wasn't the Flames insisting on the Gio cap but rather Gaudreau didn't want a 7 or 8 year deal last go around so what do we believe? a lot of these hot takes are based on info we'll never know so i'm not sure I understand the rush to make them or to assign blame. I personally don't really care who is at fault here and we will likely never know the information required to properly Hash Rate it. 

 

for me this isn't one person it's an organization failure. There is famous quote from the Founder that turned McDonalds around "you don't know what business your in" and i think this applies to the Flames. What the Flames can't seem to wrap their heads around is they are a small market professional sports team and the name of the game if you are a small market is asset management. You can't all into this pattern of winning every year at the expense of leting assets go, and not just letting assets go but spending more. You can't deal 4th round picks for depth dman at the deadline when your not a contender and you can't let guys like Brodie and Gaudreau walk for nothing. I don't care if it means you will miss the playoffs here and there its what you need to do if you want to be a successful small market club and this organization doesn't understand that. 

 

I said this 2 summers ago the Flames needed to have a plan for Gaudreau before his NTC kicked in, that's what small market clubs need to do. you need some level of commitment from your best player or you need to turn that player into assets that can form your next core, or that can help you out in the future. Playing the game of we need to try and win every year so we can't entertain any steps back is not how this organization should function IMO. 

 

Is that on all on Treliving, not very likely IMO but I get the desire to fire him but i will say the same 2 things I have the last few years. Who are you replacing him with and what are they going to do differently?

 

I'm not convinced we are in a different spot today with a different GM. 

 

I think that this post wins the day today.

 

The shock is wearing off now, as I had genuinely believed that Johnny Hockey would sign in Calgary. The moment when he scored in Game 7... Man... it's going to be awhile before he gets another like that in his career, and that makes me sad. I had really hoped to see number 13 up there next to number 12. I think that everyone loses in this scenario from the player, to the season-ticket holders, the fans, and on down the line.

 

That being said, I agree with pretty much everything you said here. This is an organizational failure. I have been extremely critical of the Flames ownership group for a long time now, and in some ways, I believe that the success of 2004 was a curse. That was a team that was hemorrhaging money, and that run to the cup was a cash cow. I believe that playoff dollars are the reason that we will never see a full rebuild under these owners. If there's a chance - even a small chance - that they'll make the playoffs, we're all in.

Darryl Sutter has proven that you just need to get in...

 

... and all that garbage.

 

I think this sets the Flames back a few years, and that's really going to hurt. Every year Brad Treliving talks about making the team a little better during the summer months, and there's no obvious path that make that happen this year. Auston Matthews is not available, and dying to play in Calgary, and neither is Cale Makar. There are a few names out there that I would like to see them add, but I think they'll rue the day they back up a dump truck to Nazem Kadri's place.

 

I am hopeful that there is a lesson here, and I'm hopeful that we don't see this play out the same way with Matthew Tkachuk. With some luck, he'll want to be here, and that will help to attract other star players. Who knows...

 

In any case, I like that we have a measured GM, and until Stevie Y decides that he's done with Detroit, I doubt we'd be:

 

a) better off without him
b) in a different position.

 

Love, and GFG!
 

 

 

[cross16]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

No.  Point was, BT could've traded Gaudreau without a firm commitment last summer.  

 

Possibly but I think we should acknowledge the return wouldn't have been good. He had a 5 team trade list and I think we can imagine what the list would have looked like. I get the counter point is that something is better than nothing, but I think it's also fair to say that the season they had is probably better than the return they would have received.  I think your only getting a 1st and a prospect out of it. 

 

2 summers ago was the point in time the decision needed to be made, before that NTC kicked in and teams would have had at least 2 years with him. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Such as? This isn't very factual. 

why not? They build slow, sure they don’t win cups but they are at least mostly self made and more upside than our team. Imagine if they were in the pacific!

[robrob74]

40 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

I think that this post wins the day today.

 

The shock is wearing off now, as I had genuinely believed that Johnny Hockey would sign in Calgary. The moment when he scored in Game 7... Man... it's going to be awhile before he gets another like that in his career, and that makes me sad. I had really hoped to see number 13 up there next to number 12. I think that everyone loses in this scenario from the player, to the season-ticket holders, the fans, and on down the line.

 

That being said, I agree with pretty much everything you said here. This is an organizational failure. I have been extremely critical of the Flames ownership group for a long time now, and in some ways, I believe that the success of 2004 was a curse. That was a team that was hemorrhaging money, and that run to the cup was a cash cow. I believe that playoff dollars are the reason that we will never see a full rebuild under these owners. If there's a chance - even a small chance - that they'll make the playoffs, we're all in.

Darryl Sutter has proven that you just need to get in...

 

... and all that garbage.

 

I think this sets the Flames back a few years, and that's really going to hurt. Every year Brad Treliving talks about making the team a little better during the summer months, and there's no obvious path that make that happen this year. Auston Matthews is not available, and dying to play in Calgary, and neither is Cale Makar. There are a few names out there that I would like to see them add, but I think they'll rue the day they back up a dump truck to Nazem Kadri's place.

 

I am hopeful that there is a lesson here, and I'm hopeful that we don't see this play out the same way with Matthew Tkachuk. With some luck, he'll want to be here, and that will help to attract other star players. Who knows...

 

In any case, I like that we have a measured GM, and until Stevie Y decides that he's done with Detroit, I doubt we'd be:

 

a) better off without him
b) in a different position.

 

Love, and GFG!
 

 

 

 

thing about the LA team he won with, a lot of the talk at the beginning of that season was that they were going to win the Pacific Division with the Philly kids going there. They started slow and then Sutter. People talk as if they were a team that wasn’t even supposed to make the playoffs and then it changed to you just gotta get in and anything can happen as they just squeaked in. They just weren’t living up to their potential until the right time. 

[jjgallow]

17 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Possibly but I think we should acknowledge the return wouldn't have been good. He had a 5 team trade list and I think we can imagine what the list would have looked like. I get the counter point is that something is better than nothing, but I think it's also fair to say that the season they had is probably better than the return they would have received.  I think your only getting a 1st and a prospect out of it. 

 

2 summers ago was the point in time the decision needed to be made, before that NTC kicked in and teams would have had at least 2 years with him. 

 

I can't say I would have expected to see Columbus on that list.

 

With regards to 2 summers ago, I agree.  Or earlier.  2-3 summers ago.    The moment we got a feel for his playoff performance, combined with his value skyrocketing and his expressed desire to play elsewhere.  

 

On the other hand, any return at all is better than nothing.    I don't think there was any point past 2019 where it didn't make sense to trade him.

 

 

[cross16]

18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

why not? They build slow, sure they don’t win cups but they are at least mostly self made and more upside than our team. Imagine if they were in the pacific!

 

Carolina is a well run organization yes. 

 

But what isn't true is that the Flames overpay depth roles and then undercut their stars. 

[jjgallow]

41 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Carolina is a well run organization yes. 

 

But what isn't true is that the Flames overpay depth roles and then undercut their stars. 

 

I thought about responding with a giant image of Lucic, but,

 

maybe the more accurate description is the Flames don't have a whole lot in the way of prospects, given how many picks BT deals, along with our development system issues.

 

Prospects are your cap relief.  When you don't have them, you have to sign more depth players at inflated prices.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I thought about responding with a giant image of Lucic, but,

 

maybe the more accurate description is the Flames don't have a whole lot in the way of prospects, given how many picks BT deals, along with our development system issues.

 

Prospects are your cap relief.  When you don't have them, you have to sign more depth players at inflated prices.

 

Pelletier and Wolf say hi.