Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, jjgallow said:

Fireable offense, IMHO.

 

Always afraid to make the unpopular and obviously necessary moves to ensure a strong future for the franchise.

 

 

the Flames are a live in the moment team. There’s never any foresight into the future. It’s not just BT. 

[rickross]

8 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Fireable offense, IMHO.

 

Always afraid to make the unpopular and obviously necessary moves to ensure a strong future for the franchise.

 

Hard to put this one solely on BT, ultimately it came down to Johnny’s decision, home is where the heart is. Where it IS on BT is the contingency planning. These next few days will be interesting for the Flames. I’m hoping BT doesn’t ’have any knee jerk reactions and commits big $ long term chasing this current UFA pool. It’s going to be a long night and next couple weeks for BT

[The_People1]

51 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Fireable offense, IMHO.

 

Always afraid to make the unpopular and obviously necessary moves to ensure a strong future for the franchise.

 

 

I must quote this and agree.

 

BT came into the rebuild with a decent strategy.  He drafted #1 Centers in Monahan and Bennett.  He drafted #1 D Adam Fox.  He invested in goalies early on like Gillies, Mcdonald, Parsons, etc.  But man, none of them came through.  Zero.  His rebuild featured some moderate success through trades and moderate success drafting Mangiapane and Andersson. But moderate success is not good enough if we are serious about winning the Cup.  We need the best of the best.

 

I understand BT worked under owners who are more concerned about making money than investing in a proper rebuild.  Still, BT failed to straighten out the owners and deliver the message they needed to hear.  He came in with so much vision.  Early on, he was always talking about making moves that focus on the future.  Those were his best years.  A couple seasons in and his tone changed... beating the Canucks in the playoffs in hindsight was the worst thing that ever happened to us because BT lost his long term focus after that.

 

BT's best qualities is that he seems to be in on every trade.  He has great rapport with every other GM in the league.  The Flames are always in on players who are available.  He makes the Flames exciting that way.

 

Yet, at the end of the day, losing Gaudreau for a nothing is going to go down as one of the worst mistakes this franchise has ever made.  BT never should have let it come down to this.  It's his fault solely.

[rickross]

6 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I must quote this and agree.

 

BT came into the rebuild with a decent strategy.  He drafted #1 Centers in Monahan and Bennett.  He drafted #1 D Adam Fox.  He invested in goalies early on like Gillies, Mcdonald, Parsons, etc.  But man, none of them came through.  Zero.  His rebuild featured some moderate success through trades and moderate success drafting Mangiapane and Andersson. But moderate success is not good enough if we are serious about winning the Cup.  We need the best of the best.

 

I understand BT worked under owners who are more concerned about making money than investing in a proper rebuild.  Still, BT failed to straighten out the owners and deliver the message they needed to hear.  He came in with so much vision.  Early on, he was always talking about making moves that focus on the future.  Those were his best years.  A couple seasons in and his tone changed... beating the Canucks in the playoffs in hindsight was the worst thing that ever happened to us because BT lost his long term focus after that.

 

BT's best qualities is that he seems to be in on every trade.  He has great rapport with every other GM in the league.  The Flames are always in on players who are available.  He makes the Flames exciting that way.

 

Yet, at the end of the day, losing Gaudreau for a nothing is going to go down as one of the worst mistakes this franchise has ever made.  BT never should have let it come down to this.  It's his fault solely.

I get the frustration In not getting a deal done but BT was up against the Gaudreau FAMILY…that’s a very important and loud voice to negotiate with. Johnny is a married man now. This wasn’t just his decision anymore, ultimately it didn’t matter what BT offered him. It’s a tough loss and I get the frustration but there were variables in play that weren’t there 1 year ago, very hard for anyone to predict. It’s over now. Time to move on, I’d rather judge BT on what he does now moving forward, what he has within his control. Losing Johnny isn’t the end of the world. 

[MP5029]

7 hours ago, rickross said:

Hard to put this one solely on BT, ultimately it came down to Johnny’s decision, home is where the heart is. Where it IS on BT is the contingency planning. These next few days will be interesting for the Flames. I’m hoping BT doesn’t ’have any knee jerk reactions and commits big $ long term chasing this current UFA pool. It’s going to be a long night and next couple weeks for BT

No it’s 100% on him, I’d have traded Gaudreau before last year…i

had been advocating moving him because of this very reason…but not many agreed.

 

he best lock Tachuck, Manji and Killington up ASAP or start looking and planning to

move them for assets…this team

cant keep loosing solid trade chips for Nothing…all cause they waited a year or two too late aka… Brodie, Iggy, Gio and now Gaudreau…

 

horrible asset management, this needs to improve, all those players should have been traded a year or two before…I had advocated this many times for

all those guys (except Brodie, who I said should have been re-signed) imagine the haul of 1st round picks and prospects from Iggy 2years before he was moved? Or Gio right after the Norris win? Or Gaudreau had we traded him before last year?

 

OMG the team we could have now! Anyway, Cgy needs to either lock up their key UFA’s or move on early in that UFA year.

[rickross]

17 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

No it’s 100% on him, I’d have traded Gaudreau before last year…i

had been advocating moving him because of this very reason…but not many agreed.

 

he best lock Tachuck, Manji and Killington up ASAP or start looking and planning to

move them for assets…this team

cant keep loosing solid trade chips for Nothing…all cause they waited a year or two too late aka… Brodie, Iggy, Gio and now Gaudreau…

 

horrible asset management, this needs to improve, all those players should have been traded a year or two before…I had advocated this many times for

all those guys (except Brodie, who I said should have been re-signed) imagine the haul of 1st round picks and prospects from Iggy 2years before he was moved? Or Gio right after the Norris win? Or Gaudreau had we traded him before last year?

 

OMG the team we could have now! Anyway, Cgy needs to either lock up their key UFA’s or move on early in that UFA year.

This is also on Johnny. He waited until the very last minute to make a clear decision, in a way he hold the entire franchise hostage throughout the process. He could have just informed BT earlier on he had no intention to resign as he wanted to be close to home but he didn’t. So now we move on. BT has had a long time to prepare for this day but it’s been a fluid situation. Now that it’s over we have to get over it and grow as a franchise. We can fire BT but that signals another rebuild…for a team that finished tops in its division at that. There’s still a team we have to ice, we don’t live and die with Johnny 

[MP5029]

10 minutes ago, rickross said:

This is also on Johnny. He waited until the very last minute to make a clear decision, in a way he hold the entire franchise hostage throughout the process. He could have just informed BT earlier on he had no intention to resign as he wanted to be close to home but he didn’t. So now we move on. BT has had a long time to prepare for this day but it’s been a fluid situation. Now that it’s over we have to get over it and grow as a franchise. We can fire BT but that signals another rebuild…for a team that finished tops in its division at that. There’s still a team we have to ice, we don’t live and die with Johnny 

Somewhat…but you need a GM who’s hard nosed business orientated not a crybaby best friend to the players…

 

I wonder if BT ever gets tired of being the players sucker fall back GM? Cause that’s how he’s been for the past few years…

 

sad really, his first few years he’s was green but much better at his job, now he’s kinda the sucker GM of the NHL 

 

and that’s why Gaudreau was able and ultimately did take advantage of him and sadly the Flames 

[phoenix66]

43 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

No it’s 100% on him, I’d have traded Gaudreau before last year…i

had been advocating moving him because of this very reason…but not many agreed.

 

he best lock Tachuck, Manji and Killington up ASAP or start looking and planning to

move them for assets…this team

cant keep loosing solid trade chips for Nothing…all cause they waited a year or two too late aka… Brodie, Iggy, Gio and now Gaudreau…

 

horrible asset management, this needs to improve, all those players should have been traded a year or two before…I had advocated this many times for

all those guys (except Brodie, who I said should have been re-signed) imagine the haul of 1st round picks and prospects from Iggy 2years before he was moved? Or Gio right after the Norris win? Or Gaudreau had we traded him before last year?

 

OMG the team we could have now! Anyway, Cgy needs to either lock up their key UFA’s or move on early in that UFA year.

Wouid you rather be Vegas? It's starting to lose its lustre due to the way they treat their people..

No I disagree..the end goal is a championship.. if you were going to trade him it was 2 years ago.. he had a 4 team trade list and once he was in his last year his value was down as a pending ufa..  any return unless it was Eichel would have been criticised.. 

I have no issue with how he has managed players.. he could have pushed for the extension last year but let's be serious , Johnny was still "soft" and "bad in the playoffs" ..the fanbase was split on whether he was even worth keeping.. 

 

 

Darryl said it best end of season.. made the playoffs won a round..great..but the goal for the next few years is to be a consistent playoff team.. stop the in and out.. and I believe we are that team in the making 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, rickross said:

I get the frustration In not getting a deal done but BT was up against the Gaudreau FAMILY…that’s a very important and loud voice to negotiate with. Johnny is a married man now. This wasn’t just his decision anymore, ultimately it didn’t matter what BT offered him. It’s a tough loss and I get the frustration but there were variables in play that weren’t there 1 year ago, very hard for anyone to predict. It’s over now. Time to move on, I’d rather judge BT on what he does now moving forward, what he has within his control. Losing Johnny isn’t the end of the world. 

 

BT let it get to this point. 

 

He could've extended Johnny last summer but no. 

 

He could've signed Johnny originally to an 8-year deal but no.

 

What GM doesn't deal with married players?  You let him use that excuse on you?  He still needs to read the room and if he cannot and fails to do so, then he loses our confidence moving forward.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, rickross said:

I get the frustration In not getting a deal done but BT was up against the Gaudreau FAMILY…that’s a very important and loud voice to negotiate with. Johnny is a married man now. This wasn’t just his decision anymore, ultimately it didn’t matter what BT offered him. It’s a tough loss and I get the frustration but there were variables in play that weren’t there 1 year ago, very hard for anyone to predict. It’s over now. Time to move on, I’d rather judge BT on what he does now moving forward, what he has within his control. Losing Johnny isn’t the end of the world. 

 

His parents loved him being a Flame.  Guy was a big fan of Sutter.  The only thing that bothered them was that COVID prevented them coming here for close to two years.  If anything, Johnny is concerned that he might get marooned again in Canada.  We are creeping towards future travel bans.  He likely is able to continue to travel across the border for hockey, but may not be able to have visitors from south of the border. 

 

[travel_dude]

Just now, The_People1 said:

 

BT let it get to this point. 

 

He could've extended Johnny last summer but no. 

 

He could've signed Johnny originally to an 8-year deal but no.

 

What GM doesn't deal with married players?  You let him use that excuse on you?  He still needs to read the room and if he cannot and fails to do so, then he loses our confidence moving forward.

 

Need two to dance.  

The biggest fail was not doing 8 years originally.  That was letting Gio be too influential.  The f'in Gio cap.  No balls.  Perhaps playing hardball with him had nothing to do with the way he walked, but he messed it up by not demanding 8 years.  His only leverage was not playing.  8x8 would have been tough, but maybe then we don't do stupid things after.  Elliott, Stone and Brouwer are talking to you Brad.

[The_People1]

30 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Need two to dance.  

The biggest fail was not doing 8 years originally.  That was letting Gio be too influential.  The f'in Gio cap.  No balls.  Perhaps playing hardball with him had nothing to do with the way he walked, but he messed it up by not demanding 8 years.  His only leverage was not playing.  8x8 would have been tough, but maybe then we don't do stupid things after.  Elliott, Stone and Brouwer are talking to you Brad.

 

Nickel and dime your own players.  Then turn around and hand out money like candy in UFA season.  Signature BT.  Well, it's finally come home to roost.  His best player decided not to play that game with him anymore.

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Nickel and dime your own players.  Then turn around and hand out money like candy in UFA season.  Signature BT.  Well, it's finally come home to roost.  His best player decided not to play that game with him anymore.

 

Tkachuk and Mange say hello.

 

Mange got shated 1st RFA year.

Next one got a bump and short term to take him to FA.

 

[cross16]

Man are there some bad takes being thrown around here, yikes. We honestly think Gaudreau waited 6 years to 'stick" it back to the Flames. I've also been told it wasn't the Flames insisting on the Gio cap but rather Gaudreau didn't want a 7 or 8 year deal last go around so what do we believe? a lot of these hot takes are based on info we'll never know so i'm not sure I understand the rush to make them or to assign blame. I personally don't really care who is at fault here and we will likely never know the information required to properly Hash Rate it. 

 

for me this isn't one person it's an organization failure. There is famous quote from the Founder that turned McDonalds around "you don't know what business your in" and i think this applies to the Flames. What the Flames can't seem to wrap their heads around is they are a small market professional sports team and the name of the game if you are a small market is asset management. You can't all into this pattern of winning every year at the expense of leting assets go, and not just letting assets go but spending more. You can't deal 4th round picks for depth dman at the deadline when your not a contender and you can't let guys like Brodie and Gaudreau walk for nothing. I don't care if it means you will miss the playoffs here and there its what you need to do if you want to be a successful small market club and this organization doesn't understand that. 

 

I said this 2 summers ago the Flames needed to have a plan for Gaudreau before his NTC kicked in, that's what small market clubs need to do. you need some level of commitment from your best player or you need to turn that player into assets that can form your next core, or that can help you out in the future. Playing the game of we need to try and win every year so we can't entertain any steps back is not how this organization should function IMO. 

 

Is that on all on Treliving, not very likely IMO but I get the desire to fire him but i will say the same 2 things I have the last few years. Who are you replacing him with and what are they going to do differently?

 

I'm not convinced we are in a different spot today with a different GM. 

[The_People1]

19 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Man are there some bad takes being thrown around here, yikes. We honestly think Gaudreau waited 6 years to 'stick" it back to the Flames. I've also been told it wasn't the Flames insisting on the Gio cap but rather Gaudreau didn't want a 7 or 8 year deal last go around so what do we believe? a lot of these hot takes are based on info we'll never know so i'm not sure I understand the rush to make them or to assign blame. I personally don't really care who is at fault here and we will likely never know the information required to properly Hash Rate it. 

 

for me this isn't one person it's an organization failure. There is famous quote from the Founder that turned McDonalds around "you don't know what business your in" and i think this applies to the Flames. What the Flames can't seem to wrap their heads around is they are a small market professional sports team and the name of the game if you are a small market is asset management. You can't all into this pattern of winning every year at the expense of leting assets go, and not just letting assets go but spending more. You can't deal 4th round picks for depth dman at the deadline when your not a contender and you can't let guys like Brodie and Gaudreau walk for nothing. I don't care if it means you will miss the playoffs here and there its what you need to do if you want to be a successful small market club and this organization doesn't understand that. 

 

I said this 2 summers ago the Flames needed to have a plan for Gaudreau before his NTC kicked in, that's what small market clubs need to do. you need some level of commitment from your best player or you need to turn that player into assets that can form your next core, or that can help you out in the future. Playing the game of we need to try and win every year so we can't entertain any steps back is not how this organization should function IMO. 

 

Is that on all on Treliving, not very likely IMO but I get the desire to fire him but i will say the same 2 things I have the last few years. Who are you replacing him with and what are they going to do differently?

 

I'm not convinced we are in a different spot today with a different GM. 

 

You basically blaming BT without blaming BT directly.  It's his job to do everything you said we should do.

 

I mean, I'm sure he's under the hot seat because owners orders are win immediately but still.

[cross16]

Just now, The_People1 said:

 

You basically blaming BT without blaming BT directly.  It's his job to do everything you said we should do.

 

I mean, I'm sure he's under the hot seat because owners orders are win immediately but still.

 

He's part of it for sure but I don't agree it's his job to do everything i'm mentioning here. It's his job to execute it but it's not his job to create the mandate. I also don't believe for a second that the plan with Gaudreau wasn't done with ownership being involved the whole time. 

 

[rocketdoctor]

Hindsight warriors out in force.

 

 

 

[robrob74]

13 hours ago, rickross said:

Hard to put this one solely on BT, ultimately it came down to Johnny’s decision, home is where the heart is. Where it IS on BT is the contingency planning. These next few days will be interesting for the Flames. I’m hoping BT doesn’t ’have any knee jerk reactions and commits big $ long term chasing this current UFA pool. It’s going to be a long night and next couple weeks for BT

 

only thing is, I think BT needed to give him a deadline sooner than the day before of FA. 
 

also, i think he undercut Johnny again and that is a sinking feeling when thinking Johnny should be more valued than that. 
 

but just that the deadline could have been sooner…

[The_People1]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

He's part of it for sure but I don't agree it's his job to do everything i'm mentioning here. It's his job to execute it but it's not his job to create the mandate. I also don't believe for a second that the plan with Gaudreau wasn't done with ownership being involved the whole time. 

 

 

Fair enough.  If ownership doesn't change their message then the next GM is going to do the same thing as BT. Always short term gains above long term future.

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

Hindsight warriors out in force.

 

 

 

Mia it really hindsight if we called for it then? When things have been proven what we wanted to do should have been done doesn’t mean it’s hindsight. The only difference is, we aren’t running the team or have a say in what should be done. 
 

maybe he was gonna sign? 
it’s true, he changed a lot of our minds this past season. It’s like going all the way with someone and telling them all the right stuff and then the next day break up with them. 
 

i guess it’s true, in the moment he felt it. But people are always allowed to change their minds…

 

BT gambled on a 7-10 million dollar asset and lost.

[flames for life]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

You basically blaming BT without blaming BT directly.  It's his job to do everything you said we should do.

 

I mean, I'm sure he's under the hot seat because owners orders are win immediately but still.

The “immediately but still” statement says everything.  Treleving had his marching orders, which he did.  He was ordered “sign at all cost”, which he attempted to do.  Unfortunately , the one thing T can’t manage is player’s choices or family.  For this inability, he should go?!?  Right up to the last, JG was stating love for the team and desire to stay.  If anything, I put this more on JG.  He knew where he wanted to be months ago, but the competitive side of him wanted to see this good team succeed.  JG could have easily informed the team of his long term plans instead of stringing them along.  If Treleving jumped the gun he would have been linched and quartered.

[The_People1]

4 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Mia it really hindsight if we called for it then? When things have been proven what we wanted to do should have been done doesn’t mean it’s hindsight. The only difference is, we aren’t running the team or have a say in what should be done. 
 

maybe he was gonna sign? 
it’s true, he changed a lot of our minds this past season. It’s like going all the way with someone and telling them all the right stuff and then the next day break up with them. 
 

i guess it’s true, in the moment he felt it. But people are always allowed to change their minds…

 

BT gambled on a 7-10 million dollar asset and lost.

 

Ya exactly man.  Of course some of us are playing the hindsight game but many others like us were saying this car is going to hit the light post if we don't steer clear.  And now we hit the light post.  We are not playing hindsight.

[cross16]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Fair enough.  If ownership doesn't change their message then the next GM is going to do the same thing as BT. Always short term gains above long term future.

 

And that is my question. I could be wrong here as i'm basing this mostly on what I hear and how it appears the club operates but the key question for me is that. Would a new GM do anything differently?

 

If they wouldn't then it's hard for me to blame this all on the GM. 

 

[rickross]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

BT let it get to this point. 

 

He could've extended Johnny last summer but no. 

 

He could've signed Johnny originally to an 8-year deal but no.

 

What GM doesn't deal with married players?  You let him use that excuse on you?  He still needs to read the room and if he cannot and fails to do so, then he loses our confidence moving forward.

The fact that Johnny is now married and expecting a child is not an excuse, it’s a simple fact. His priorities have changed since last year, no dancing around that. The players are human beings let’s try and keep that in mind. What if Johnny refused to enter negotiations last summer ? That still BT’s fault? Johnny is an American , he didn’t grow up in Calgary…he wanted to play closer to his family in the US…but I guess thats Trelivings fault too! It’s a 2 way street! Johnny is also to blame for the stalemate and our current situation…he could have clearly communicated he wasn’t staying no matter the offer and saved this waste of a process. It’s a tough blow but Tre was in a tough position, u can’t sign players without their consent. Clearly JH didn’t want to be here anymore he just waited until the last minute to be forthcoming about it. 
 

Go ahead and fire BT and then who do u suggest to replace him? What GM would magically have gotten JH to stay ? I’ll wait!

Im not going to overreact until I see what the contingency plan is. If this team is less than adequate come next season then BT deserves all the blame until let’s see how this plays out. 

[sak22]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

And that is my question. I could be wrong here as i'm basing this mostly on what I hear and how it appears the club operates but the key question for me is that. Would a new GM do anything differently?

 

If they wouldn't then it's hard for me to blame this all on the GM. 

 

I always try to put myself in others situations before rushing to criticize their mistakes.  How much job security did BT have going into this season?  My guess is a missed playoffs this year would've ended his tenure, so a Gaudreau trade last summer has to be one that keeps the team competitive.  Not easy to get a 2nd job when the results of the first one are mediocre.  Now we shift to ownership, its to say rebuild but we aren't paying the bills, no fans for a year and half a building for a good portion this year, rebuild isn't going to sell the 12k tickets that they can't sell now.  Tough spot to be in, but a small market team probably needs to take an approach like a Tampa Bay Ray's or Oakland A's approach and always develop then sell.