Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Ottawa 2 years ago was a darn fine team.  Until Phaneuf got selfish about his NTC things were rolling and they were a serious contending team.  Well, now that I think about it, the end with their long-time Captain wasn't all that great.  Hmmm, the Hamburgler-Stone run.... OK, you have a point.

 

Their internal cap spelled the end of Turris.  The owner got too involved in the negotiation.  He ended up signing for the exact  same money as Duchene makes and all it cost was an unprotected lotto pick in 2019.  They cheaped out with Stone, not just this year.  

[travel_dude]

11 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Brian Murray RIP was IMO not a great GM and made as many bonehead deals as possibly good ones. Phaneuf is an over-paid loser and never should have been added to that OTT team. The best thing OTT could do right now is trade Karlsson and get on with a fast retooling of that team so guys like Stone and Duchene wat to stay around. Oh yeah and get new ownership.

 

First things first.  Get rid of Melnyk and Doirion.  They are the cause of the problems there.  New GM and guys like Stone would want to stay.  EK probably has zero confidence in PD's ability to create a winner and have any financial backing to pay for it.

[conundrumed]

10 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Brian Murray RIP was IMO not a great GM and made as many bonehead deals as possibly good ones. Phaneuf is an over-paid loser and never should have been added to that OTT team. The best thing OTT could do right now is trade Karlsson and get on with a fast retooling of that team so guys like Stone and Duchene wat to stay around. Oh yeah and get new ownership.

4 more yrs of Ryan at $7.25; 3 more of Gaborik at $4.875; 2 more of MacArthur and Boedker at a combined $8.65.

There's 25% of your cap on hot garbage.

I don't care who the owner is, you're at a standstill waiting for bad contracts to go away. They have to trade a Karlsson just to sit and cry about what they have on their cap.

Total devastation by mgmt. If I were Melnick, I'd go through the roof too.

[rickross]

On August 3, 2018 at 4:40 PM, sak22 said:

 

 

... I'd like to mention what I think is the most important thing to judge him on and that is drafting. This is where Riser, Coates, Button, Sutter and Feaster before him have failed this team and why we only have 7 playoff appearances in the last 20 years.  Right now '14 is a complete failure, the rest are still early to judge, but I'd say there is still potential in '15 to have 3 NHLers, '16 I think could still be a good year if Parsons and Dube pan out, '17 I think we got a player in the first time will tell with the rest and '18 I think we might have done okay despite a lack of picks.  Overall I like Brad and think he's done the best job since Fletcher, but the results need to back it up.

It's an interesting way to look back on Flames drafting. It's been better but you can't rave about it by any means. Likely should have landed more blue chip options but it's all a big gamble right? 

 

With that said is it time to relieve Button and his group and refresh the focus and outlook of this franchise drafting?

[DirtyDeeds]

36 minutes ago, rickross said:

It's an interesting way to look back on Flames drafting. It's been better but you can't rave about it by any means. Likely should have landed more blue chip options but it's all a big gamble right? 

 

With that said is it time to relieve Button and his group and refresh the focus and outlook of this franchise drafting?

Easy to say but really hard to do.

Oilers revamped their dismal scouting staff with::: more dismal scouts and even more horrendous picks(except for the 1st round no brainers)

(NHLers in brackets)

 

[cccsberg]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

That's poor mgmt practice if true though.

Agree, never said I liked it.

 

[MAC331]

6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

First things first.  Get rid of Melnyk and Doirion.  They are the cause of the problems there.  New GM and guys like Stone would want to stay.  EK probably has zero confidence in PD's ability to create a winner and have any financial backing to pay for it.

My very point that it started long before now and will take a long time to correct.

[Khrox]

8 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Oilers revamped their dismal scouting staff with::: more dismal scouts and even more horrendous picks(except for the 1st round no brainers)

(NHLers in brackets)

What's your definition of NHLer, because you don't have Tobias Rieder as an NHL'er, despite the fact that he has 3 full seasons and over 300 games played (by definition, I'd call that an NHLer). Martin Marincin could be debated (hasn't had a full season, but is still approaching 200 games played). Same could be argued with Brandon Davidson (152 games played, no full seasons). For the most part, I agree with your list though.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Khrox said:

What's your definition of NHLer, because you don't have Tobias Rieder as an NHL'er, despite the fact that he has 3 full seasons and over 300 games played (by definition, I'd call that an NHLer). Martin Marincin could be debated (hasn't had a full season, but is still approaching 200 games played). Same could be argued with Brandon Davidson (152 games played, no full seasons). For the most part, I agree with your list though.

 

Well, they decided he wasn't an NHL'er and traded him for Kale Kessy.  Who?

 

[Khrox]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, they decided he wasn't an NHL'er and traded him for Kale Kessy.  Who?

 

And then proceeded to score as many goals as Ryan Strome in 30 less games. I don't think it's fair to judge if Edmonton can determine NHL talent when even with clear cut number one picks they still manage to screw it up (Yakupov, who isn't in the NHL anymore, and barely has more points than Rieder anyways).

[cross16]

On 8/4/2018 at 11:53 AM, conundrumed said:

 

Why he didn't address the forward ranks earlier is beyond me. It was evident to EVERYONE that there wasn't enough skill here.

 

 

 

I think you know as much as any, but let's remember the state of the Flames when Treliving got here. They were terrible in basically all areas, G, D, F, depth, farm team, prospects etc. Expecting Treliving, and quite frankly any GM, to build a power at all positions in less than 4 years is quite frankly unrealistic. He prioritized other positions first but you can't do everything at once, unless you start giving up more picks/prospects something you say in the same post you are not a fan of. 

 

Look at Steve Yzerman, who I would say is arguably one of the best GMs in the game. He inherited 2 top 2 overall picks and he still missed the playoffs 2 of his first 3 seasons and it took 5 seasons before the Lightning where a contender. Start to finish I don't think you can argue that this organization is in significantly better shape than it was when Treliving got here and the depth at all levels is pretty impressive. The job takes time to do right. 

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I think you know as much as any, but let's remember the state of the Flames when Treliving got here. They were terrible in basically all areas, G, D, F, depth, farm team, prospects etc. Expecting Treliving, and quite frankly any GM, to build a power at all positions in less than 4 years is quite frankly unrealistic. He prioritized other positions first but you can't do everything at once, unless you start giving up more picks/prospects something you say in the same post you are not a fan of. 

 

Look at Steve Yzerman, who I would say is arguably one of the best GMs in the game. He inherited 2 top 2 overall picks and he still missed the playoffs 2 of his first 3 seasons and it took 5 seasons before the Lightning where a contender. Start to finish I don't think you can argue that this organization is in significantly better shape than it was when Treliving got here and the depth at all levels is pretty impressive. The job takes time to do right. 

 

Agreed.  That said, we are out of cap, we are out of futures, and outside of D we don't have anyone in the system that projects to be a major impact player.  Treliving has now made his mark at coaching, defense, and forward.  Outside of net, we are looking at tweaks and internal growth for progress.  The next test will be to see if he can find a solution in net.  Once that is done (hopefully sooner then later) we will be able to see if Treliving has built a team that can contend or if he has built a team that is in the large middle of the pack.  

[MAC331]

39 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Agreed.  That said, we are out of cap, we are out of futures, and outside of D we don't have anyone in the system that projects to be a major impact player.  Treliving has now made his mark at coaching, defense, and forward.  Outside of net, we are looking at tweaks and internal growth for progress.  The next test will be to see if he can find a solution in net.  Once that is done (hopefully sooner then later) we will be able to see if Treliving has built a team that can contend or if he has built a team that is in the large middle of the pack.  

I would say our young major impact players are on the ice now so BT has time to fill in the lower ranks. Although our forwards in Stockton may be more pedestrian type players you need them. Whether Mangiapane, Foo, Gawdin or Dube become top 6 or not they can certainly be impact player for our lower 6. Defense RSD still requires some focus by BT over the next few years. goalie wise I think we have the pipeline right where it needs to be so we feed into Parsons, the next one.

[cross16]

53 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Agreed.  That said, we are out of cap, we are out of futures, and outside of D we don't have anyone in the system that projects to be a major impact player.  Treliving has now made his mark at coaching, defense, and forward.  Outside of net, we are looking at tweaks and internal growth for progress.  The next test will be to see if he can find a solution in net.  Once that is done (hopefully sooner then later) we will be able to see if Treliving has built a team that can contend or if he has built a team that is in the large middle of the pack.  

 

While I agree on the net piece (but worth pointing out that he had deals for Bishop, Anderson and Jones that fell through for mostly reasons outside his control) I don't agree with your first line. He's down his 2nd this year at that it and i think Dube and Mangiapane deserve a bit more credit personally but outside of that the Flames also have one of the youngest top 6 forward cores in the NHL. It's extremely difficult to be stacked at all positions. Feels like a bit reach to knock Treliving for that. 

[The_People1]

No one's going to agree with me but BT should've tanked while he had the green light from fan expectation when he first took over.  We would have had Ekblad instead of Bennett and could've drafted Barzal because we wouldn't have needed the Hamilton trade with Ekblad as our #1 RHS RD.  Not to mention the 2nd rounders given up in that trade.

 

But alas, rush into mediocritry first and build from there.  And here we are.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

No one's going to agree with me but BT should've tanked while he had the green light from fan expectation when he first took over. 

 

Would have required the green light from ownership however. The debate tends to focus on the moral argument around tanking but we don't often ask the question is the GM allowed to do so?

 

My belief is no. 

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I think you know as much as any, but let's remember the state of the Flames when Treliving got here. They were terrible in basically all areas, G, D, F, depth, farm team, prospects etc. Expecting Treliving, and quite frankly any GM, to build a power at all positions in less than 4 years is quite frankly unrealistic. He prioritized other positions first but you can't do everything at once, unless you start giving up more picks/prospects something you say in the same post you are not a fan of. 

 

Look at Steve Yzerman, who I would say is arguably one of the best GMs in the game. He inherited 2 top 2 overall picks and he still missed the playoffs 2 of his first 3 seasons and it took 5 seasons before the Lightning where a contender. Start to finish I don't think you can argue that this organization is in significantly better shape than it was when Treliving got here and the depth at all levels is pretty impressive. The job takes time to do right. 

You mean you can argue?

I agree we're better than when he was hired, but the goal is still at least be a playoff team.

His proactive moves with the Hams and Brouwer were great fodder at the time but at the end of the day I hope he's learned it NEVER goes as planned so he has to jump on changing hats and being reactive occasionally. He doesn't want to and it's counter to his personality.

For me that was hard evidence last year that you have to at least be able to meander through the forks in the road as they arise.

I'm hoping BP is more of a hardass because every individual has to meet demands or there is no point saying nice things about them and being pals.

They're very highly paid contractors. The whole, "it's about forging relationships" and GG's "emotional bank account" stuff...NO.

The players need a boss and to be held accountable. Kid gloves amount to zero respect it seemed like to me with GG.

Enough being, "cerebral" for me. It's about hard work. And yeah, lose it on guys playing dumb, lethargic or unmotivated.

And don't take him aside for that, the whole team is held to the same standard.

I really hope BT's 2nd coach is a lot more no-nonsense than his 1st one.

[conundrumed]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

Would have required the green light from ownership however. The debate tends to focus on the moral argument around tanking but we don't often ask the question is the GM allowed to do so?

 

My belief is no. 

+10.

We don't know where the handcuffs are, but we can sure sense them.

All that matters to KK and the owners is the playoff bounty, so I can only imagine where any concept of actually having a vision goes from there.

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

While I agree on the net piece (but worth pointing out that he had deals for Bishop, Anderson and Jones that fell through for mostly reasons outside his control) I don't agree with your first line. He's down his 2nd this year at that it and i think Dube and Mangiapane deserve a bit more credit personally but outside of that the Flames also have one of the youngest top 6 forward cores in the NHL. It's extremely difficult to be stacked at all positions. Feels like a bit reach to knock Treliving for that. 

 

I wasn't being critical of Treliving. I am just saying that this is his team now and he has played his most impactful cards. Time to see what the team looks like. If it isn't a strong team then I do think criticism of the GM will be fair. 

[cross16]

 

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

His proactive moves with the Hams and Brouwer were great fodder at the time but at the end of the day I hope he's learned it NEVER goes as planned so he has to jump on changing hats and being reactive occasionally. He doesn't want to and it's counter to his personality.

 

 

I'm curious what gives you this conclusion? Is it simply that he did not fire GG soon enough?

 

Because I would argue the exactly opposite. He's taking a lot of heat for trading Hamilton but the player didn't go as planned and now he's gone. Bouma/Browuer were bought out, Hartley fired 1 year after an extension, no extension for Elliott despite the draft pick played,etc etc

 

I find one of Treliving's strengths is that he is willing to accept, address and learn from previous mistakes. 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

 

I'm curious what gives you this conclusion? Is it simply that he did not fire GG soon enough?

 

Because I would argue the exactly opposite. He's taking a lot of heat for trading Hamilton but the player didn't go as planned and now he's gone. Bouma/Browuer were bought out, Hartley fired 1 year after an extension, no extension for Elliott despite the draft pick played,etc etc. For me one of Trelivnig's strengths is that he is not afraid to admit a mistake, learn from it, and work to not repeat again in the future. 

Bringing in Lazar, last year's tdl bringing in Stewart?

These are Hail Mary's, hardly an attempt at solutions.

Wait another year, act all angry.

Rinse, repeat.

I won't forget how frustrating last year was.

So done with building it up followed by excuses.

[Cowtownguy]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

You mean you can argue?

I agree we're better than when he was hired, but the goal is still at least be a playoff team.

His proactive moves with the Hams and Brouwer were great fodder at the time but at the end of the day I hope he's learned it NEVER goes as planned so he has to jump on changing hats and being reactive occasionally. He doesn't want to and it's counter to his personality.

For me that was hard evidence last year that you have to at least be able to meander through the forks in the road as they arise.

I'm hoping BP is more of a hardass because every individual has to meet demands or there is no point saying nice things about them and being pals.

They're very highly paid contractors. The whole, "it's about forging relationships" and GG's "emotional bank account" stuff...NO.

The players need a boss and to be held accountable. Kid gloves amount to zero respect it seemed like to me with GG.

Enough being, "cerebral" for me. It's about hard work. And yeah, lose it on guys playing dumb, lethargic or unmotivated.

And don't take him aside for that, the whole team is held to the same standard.

I really hope BT's 2nd coach is a lot more no-nonsense than his 1st one.

There seems to be this notion that NHL players today are paid so well, that coaches have to treat them like princesses. I don't buy it. Yeah, the days of Iron Mike and Alan Eagleson are gone (The players should have let the Red Army keep Eagleson in '72 IMO). Players deserve respect just like anyone else. I suspect that when the coaches get too gushy (i.e. relationships, emotional bank accounts etc.), the players lose respect for them. After all, these players have been involved in the sport for a long time and many coaches are pretty direct or even harsh. 

 

I wonder how many players on the team thought GG was a total fluffy tool when he threw the stick. That was so lame IMO.

[conundrumed]

10 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

There seems to be this notion that NHL players today are paid so well, that coaches have to treat them like princesses. I don't buy it. Yeah, the days of Iron Mike and Alan Eagleson are gone (The players should have let the Red Army keep Eagleson in '72 IMO). Players deserve respect just like anyone else. I suspect that when the coaches get too gushy (i.e. relationships, emotional bank accounts etc.), the players lose respect for them. After all, these players have been involved in the sport for a long time and many coaches are pretty direct or even harsh. 

 

I wonder how many players on the team thought GG was a total fluffy tool when he threw the stick. That was so lame IMO.

If you're going to throw a stick, hit someone, for the love of god.

"Did you just throw a stick at me"?

Yes I did, and I have an endless supply. Go pout in the shower and stop wasting everyone's time.

That's coaching.

[Cowtownguy]

12 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

If you're going to throw a stick, hit someone, for the love of god.

"Did you just throw a stick at me"?

Yes I did, and I have an endless supply. Go pout in the shower and stop wasting everyone's time.

That's coaching.

Why not just bag skate them like the old days? Throwing a stick is like: pulling off the limbs of Barbie, telling mom that you hate her (when you are 53 years old), stealing a coworker's lunch from the fridge....

 

 

[stubblejumper1]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

There seems to be this notion that NHL players today are paid so well, that coaches have to treat them like princesses. I don't buy it. Yeah, the days of Iron Mike and Alan Eagleson are gone (The players should have let the Red Army keep Eagleson in '72 IMO). Players deserve respect just like anyone else. I suspect that when the coaches get too gushy (i.e. relationships, emotional bank accounts etc.), the players lose respect for them. After all, these players have been involved in the sport for a long time and many coaches are pretty direct or even harsh. 

 

I wonder how many players on the team thought GG was a total fluffy tool when he threw the stick. That was so lame IMO.

 

Probably most of the players thought it was lame.  If my boss came in my office and threw a pen at the wall I would probably hand him a new pen to see if he would smash it, too.  I definitely wouldn't find it motivating.