Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[travel_dude]

BT, as the only actual decision maker had some hits and misses.

Until Burke was gone and the ownership allowed him to make final decisions, it was a mess.

Lucic trade was not as bad as it seemed.

He was important to protecting the stars.

It took him awhile to adopt all of the players.

What I didn't get was keeping Gio at the TDL, only to turn around and not protect him.

Maybe saved us from losing someone else, but it was odd.

 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Carolina is a well run organization yes. 

 

But what isn't true is that the Flames overpay depth roles and then undercut their stars. 

 

Look at their bottom 6, and bottom 3 D

 

a bit overpriced and it limits what they can do in UFA signings…

 

also, while a starting point, negotiations with Johnny in his last contract went pretty hard nosed and Johnny obviously wasn’t happy about it. While they probably reconciled or moved on, my friends who aren’t flames fans all messaged me and was like why are the Flames undercutting Johnny again. They said they did that last time. 
 

i guess not all stars, only the most important one. 

[jjgallow]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Pelletier and Wolf say hi.

 

I say hi back, lol

[89Again]

So many good points above.

 

So clear he had to be moved prior to the NTC deadline.  He/they gambled with the teams best asset and lost.

 

Sutter is the reason for the great improvement this year.  Where would we be if we had proper management during the previous years?  

 

BT had his chance and has failed in so many areas so has to fall but I really wonder how many of these GM’s are handcuffed by owners?

[cross16]

11 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Look at their bottom 6, and bottom 3 D

 

a bit overpriced and it limits what they can do in UFA signings…

 

also, while a starting point, negotiations with Johnny in his last contract went pretty hard nosed and Johnny obviously wasn’t happy about it. While they probably reconciled or moved on, my friends who aren’t flames fans all messaged me and was like why are the Flames undercutting Johnny again. They said they did that last time. 
 

i guess not all stars, only the most important one. 

so unhappy that he played hard for 6 years, made improvements under multiple coaches, never once asked for a trade and then twice engaged the flames in contract extensions? Seems like an odd way to act upset. 
 

the flames have 2 bad contracts. 1 is Lucic who they didn’t sign but rather traded for after a player they signed to be in their top 6 turned out to be a bust. The second is Monahan whose career has been derailed by injuries. Before that he was a bargain. 
 

everyone else is very much market value or even solid deals. 

[89Again]

Johnny had a good year,  honoured his contract, negotiated hard and used a top offer to parlay a financially sound move to a team of his choice.  He won the business end. 
 

I don’t like it but I completely understand it and I am pretty impressed. 
 

Enough said

 

[CheersMan]

4 minutes ago, 89Again said:

Johnny had a good year,  honoured his contract, negotiated hard and used a top offer to parlay a financially sound move to a team of his choice.  He won the business end. 
 

I don’t like it but I completely understand it and I am pretty impressed. 
 

Enough said

 

LOL, are you judge and jury?

Johnny had no intentions on re-signing, he used the Flames to the final minute in an attempt to find his market value then dodged to Timbuktu. If it was not about the $$ then why lead the Flames down the path, just say you are testing FA 7 weeks ago and let teams get on with their business, it probably would have ended much better for him. Instead he declares no contract talks during season, then screws the Flames for 7 weeks, only to decide on CBJ in 12 hrs? He played by said rules but it was not genuine to a team that gave him everything.

[89Again]

14 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

LOL, are you judge and jury?

Johnny had no intentions on re-signing, he used the Flames to the final minute in an attempt to find his market value then dodged to Timbuktu. If it was not about the $$ then why lead the Flames down the path, just say you are testing FA 7 weeks ago and let teams get on with their business, it probably would have ended much better for him. Instead he declares no contract talks during season, then screws the Flames for 7 weeks, only to decide on CBJ in 12 hrs? He played by said rules but it was not genuine to a team that gave him everything.

Sorry if I offended, I know this one hurts, I would have loved for him to sign.  I was just emphasizing the business side, he said he would let his agent deal and I suspect he did.  He got as much as he could and he is set until the end of his career.  Its business and Johnny was smart, contractually he earned the right to act this way.  The Flames on the other hand were not so smart.  How do you make this mistake with your best asset when it was so clear that he was a risk to not sign and he was in the position of power?

 

Although I am not a big BT fan I will say that he did well with Adam Fox in a similar situation.  I suspect Johnny and his agent really put one over on BT but that was the risk of a guy who has the ability to sign for the remainder of his career.

apologies if I offended.

 

[89Again]

I actually think there is a real chance that they offended him last year with extension talks.  He was the best player on several sub par teams with how many different coaches and had a poor year with clearly a sub par coach and then a transition during covid where his travel was restricted and BT probably played hard ball thinking in the end he could throw the big bucks at him and save the day.  By all accounts KoKaleinan is a good guy in Columbus and I think Johnny went there because its closer to home, no potential travel issues and he liked the guy.  I just can’t see why people are slamming him without first thinking of his side.

[travel_dude]

20 minutes ago, 89Again said:

I actually think there is a real chance that they offended him last year with extension talks.  He was the best player on several sub par teams with how many different coaches and had a poor year with clearly a sub par coach and then a transition during covid where his travel was restricted and BT probably played hard ball thinking in the end he could throw the big bucks at him and save the day.  By all accounts KoKaleinan is a good guy in Columbus and I think Johnny went there because its closer to home, no potential travel issues and he liked the guy.  I just can’t see why people are slamming him without first thinking of his side.

 

Speculation.  But more to the point, if all of that was true, why would he pretend to want to sign or want to stay.  Most teams would think no chance he makes it to FA.  A month ago, teams that may have wanted him could have started making moves and asking about his rights.  Even in CBJ, he was accepting a basic non-competitive offer.  He would have had a longer list of places to choose from.  Teams start figuring out thing at the end of the season and leading up to the draft an FA.  Not 12 hours before.

 

Honestly, I was a fan from day 1.  Watched his career after draft.  Checked on scores weekly.  I just think there is way more to the story that we will never hear.  Radio silence is not the way to make a deal, unless you have no intention of signing.  If CBJ was the place he wanted to go, he took a strange way of getting there.  Really only one other team making a bid.   

[The_People1]

42 minutes ago, 89Again said:

I actually think there is a real chance that they offended him last year with extension talks.  He was the best player on several sub par teams with how many different coaches and had a poor year with clearly a sub par coach and then a transition during covid where his travel was restricted and BT probably played hard ball thinking in the end he could throw the big bucks at him and save the day.  By all accounts KoKaleinan is a good guy in Columbus and I think Johnny went there because its closer to home, no potential travel issues and he liked the guy.  I just can’t see why people are slamming him without first thinking of his side.

 

Yups.  Gaudreau was really mad after that negotiation.  Maybe he forgave but didn't forget.  When BT made a first pitch of $9.5-mil, he wasn't going to play that game with him again.

[The_People1]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

If CBJ was the place he wanted to go, he took a strange way of getting there.  Really only one other team making a bid.   

 

99% sure CBJ was plan B.  His first choice was PHI and when PHI officially announced they were not going to make an offer, he took the next best thing.

 

We always thought NJ, NYI, and NYR were his next desired options but it's obvious Gaudreau's definition of "home" was much looser than everyone thought.  Plus, NJ, NYI, and NYR were main rivals of PHI.  It would be like a lifelong Flames fans signing with the Oilers just to be close to home in Calgary.  Gaudreau just couldn't do it.

 

So ya.  Gaudreau slaps Calgary in the face and then gets his face slapped back by PHI.  And then pivots to CBJ to save face.

[sak22]

What always made me feel better about losing a player to free agency was that Columbus once lost Panarin, Bobrovsky and Duchene all at once, I always felt they deserved one, just wasn't the one I had in mind.

[crazyflames]

We probably gonna lose Tkachuk for nothing too.  Now everyone knows nobody wants to play for Calgary.  Now we can trade Monahan to CBJ for 5th round to reunite them.  

[cross16]

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups.  Gaudreau was really mad after that negotiation.  Maybe he forgave but didn't forget.  When BT made a first pitch of $9.5-mil, he wasn't going to play that game with him again.

 

So where does this come from? Are we just making stuff up now?

 

And worth pointing out that the "insulting" offer that the Flames opened up with was a more valuable offer than what he signed yesterday. 

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

So where does this come from? Are we just making stuff up now?

 

And worth pointing out that the "insulting" offer that the Flames opened up with was a more valuable offer than what he signed yesterday. 

 

There is a couple of things unrelated to our team that factor into his decisions.  

1) If born in Canada, his child is Canadian by birth

2) Tax rate in CGY way above that in CBJ.

[cross16]

11 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

There is a couple of things unrelated to our team that factor into his decisions.  

1) If born in Canada, his child is Canadian by birth

2) Tax rate in CGY way above that in CBJ.

 

So playing around with the income tax calculator on CapFriendly is interesting. 

At a 9.5Mill salary in Calgary Gaudreau's take home would be $4.967

On his contract he signed yesterday, his take home is $5.27

I'm not an accountant and i'm sure those numbers are not 100% accurate I just find that interesting that it's assumed that Calgary needs to come up much higher to account for takes. 

I can say for certain that the initial offer Calgary gave was a better deal than he got yesterday. I won't divulge publicly how I know that but if any Mod wants to know then can PM me. 

 

But in all honesty i'm not upset by his decision. it sucks to see the team's future get a blow like that but it was Gaudreau's right to do what he did. He had a decision to make, he made it so i've moved on and honestly I don't really need to know the reason why he left. He was a free agent and he choose to play somewhere else for reasons that i'm sure matter to him so all the power to him. 

 

What I'm not understanding is the rush to make up these narratives. The Flames low balled him, he was upset, wanted to stick it to them etc etc. If there is actual proof of these things then let's discuss them, but I've seen nothing and heard nothing that suggests any of this is true and it feels like people are twisting truths to fit certain narratives. 

[tmac70]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

So where does this come from? Are we just making stuff up now?

 

And worth pointing out that the "insulting" offer that the Flames opened up with was a more valuable offer than what he signed yesterday. 

 

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups.  Gaudreau was really mad after that negotiation.  Maybe he forgave but didn't forget.  When BT made a first pitch of $9.5-mil, he wasn't going to play that game with him again.

Yeah I don't by he was insulted either. I also don't think the agent knew as well. I deal with sales and contracts all the time, I don't negoatiate as hard as his agent did to have your client kick you in the balls right after. The Flames gave him all the money they could, but he was never interested. After the smoke clears and emotions settle, what I see is a player that just didn't want the pressure of being a franchise guy. Another note was he just couldn't bring himself to slide on a NJ or NYI jersey, which is why he went to CLB. 

 

See I have no issue with him going thats fine still wish him well. However lesson learned here for everyone to learn from. If he would have stated he was going to test FA weeks ago A) If now give teams like PHI the oppurtunity time to arrange chairs to seat him on the roster B, It proves a decorum of professionalism and curtiousy to the Organization so they can arrange and be more proactive moving forward C) An orgainzation deadline for a response or decision should be implimented. Case in point this would have assited both sides instead now the organization has egg on its face and Gaudreau is as well. 

[JTech780]

I have a hard time blaming Treliving for any of this. From a lot of what I am hearing and reading, it sure sounds like Treliving went to Gaudreau weeks ago and told him that it’s up to you we will make you one of the richest players in the NHL and the highest paid player in Flames history, you just have to let us know that you want to be here.

 

They negotiated with the idea that he wanted to be here and it sounds like at one point on Tuesday the Flames thought they had a deal in place and were ready to have a press conference to announce the deal. That’s when Gaudreau backed out.

 

There is also a rumour that Murray Edwards called Gaudreau directly on Tuesday without Treliving’s knowledge and gave Gaudreau the 8x$10.5m deal and told him take it or leave it, but we need answer right now. Apparently Gaudreau didn’t like they way he was being treated in the negotiations.

 

How Treliving deals with Tkachuk is how I will ultimately judge him. If he lets Tkachuk just sign the QO, we are screwed. He needs to figure it out before that happens and either have a long term deal in place or trade him, but he can’t let him sign the QO:

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

There is also a rumour that Murray Edwards called Gaudreau directly on Tuesday without Treliving’s knowledge and gave Gaudreau the 8x$10.5m deal and told him take it or leave it, but we need answer right now. Apparently Gaudreau didn’t like they way he was being treated in the negotiations.

 

I really hope that isn't the case.  You have a good negotiator in place that is moving the chains.  You just stripped him in front of the player.

[travel_dude]

30 minutes ago, cross16 said:

So playing around with the income tax calculator on CapFriendly is interesting. 

At a 9.5Mill salary in Calgary Gaudreau's take home would be $4.967

On his contract he signed yesterday, his take home is $5.27

I'm not an accountant and i'm sure those numbers are not 100% accurate I just find that interesting that it's assumed that Calgary needs to come up much higher to account for takes. 

 

I read something similar, but it was based on 10.5 here and 9.75 there.  But it was still higher there on the lower salary.  If that was the only thing, then it still doesn't really justify it.  You have better buying power in Canada due to the exchange rate, even if your cost of living is higher. 

 

Anyway, his wife is American and perhaps he wanted his kid to be born in US.  To you or me that may sound funny, but maybe that's a family thing.

 

Since this is a BT thread, I will just say I am annoyed that we didn't sign him.  I can't blame him for being led on.  I can use hindsight and think he should have locked this up sooner than the offseason.  Had he know at TDL, he might have been able to make a deal, even get JH to waive his M-NTC.  Then again, maybe JH thought this was a good chance to win a cup.  This one year, before the cap made it harder.    

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

So where does this come from? Are we just making stuff up now?

 

And worth pointing out that the "insulting" offer that the Flames opened up with was a more valuable offer than what he signed yesterday. 

 

How so making stuff up?

 

Facts:

1. Johnny was confirmed mad after the last negotiations.

2. Johnny never responded to the Flames initial offer believed to be $9.5-mil x 8.

3. Johnny did not accept the Flames final offer rumoured to be $10.5-mil x 8.

 

"Insulted" is subjective.  So make what you want of it.  How would you describe what ultimately went down?

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

 

Yeah I don't by he was insulted either. I also don't think the agent knew as well. I deal with sales and contracts all the time, I don't negoatiate as hard as his agent did to have your client kick you in the balls right after. The Flames gave him all the money they could, but he was never interested. After the smoke clears and emotions settle, what I see is a player that just didn't want the pressure of being a franchise guy. Another note was he just couldn't bring himself to slide on a NJ or NYI jersey, which is why he went to CLB. 

 

See I have no issue with him going thats fine still wish him well. However lesson learned here for everyone to learn from. If he would have stated he was going to test FA weeks ago A) If now give teams like PHI the oppurtunity time to arrange chairs to seat him on the roster B, It proves a decorum of professionalism and curtiousy to the Organization so they can arrange and be more proactive moving forward C) An orgainzation deadline for a response or decision should be implimented. Case in point this would have assited both sides instead now the organization has egg on its face and Gaudreau is as well. 

 

This is only true if PHI made him an offer and he declined it.  It's believed PHI was his first choice so that defeats the whole "don't want the spotlight" argument.  He was absolutely ready for the spotlight.

 

In regards to NJ and NYI, it's more likely he grew up hating those teams and just couldn't muster putting on their jerseys.  CBJ is a neutral team with little history so, it was easier to play for them.

 

Which comes back to the Flames.  If it wasn't the spotlight, then it's likely he left to be closer to home as long as it wasn't a cross town rival of PHI.

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

Johnny was confirmed mad after the last negotiations.

 

Was he mad or did he just want to get past the talk and play hockey.  If he was annoyed, it was because the Gio cap existed, since a fading star should never dictate a young star's payday.  He could have held out.  He didn't want to, and his dad gave his the gears about delaying it that long.

 

COL is going to be in that same boat with Nate.  He's coming off a cup win.  He's bargain priced even compared to what Johnny was making.  Landeskog re-signed for a lot less than other got.  COL will have issues.

[sak22]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

How so making stuff up?

 

Facts:

1. Johnny was confirmed mad after the last negotiations.

2. Johnny never responded to the Flames initial offer believed to be $9.5-mil x 8.

3. Johnny did not accept the Flames final offer rumoured to be $10.5-mil x 8.

 

"Insulted" is subjective.  So make what you want of it.  How would you describe what ultimately went down?

Not having a reliable source to prove this is making it up.  Its a lot of speculation that I don't think has ever been proven by anyone credible, its just a case of a guy who always looks disinterested in media conversations that the narrative became 1) Doesn't want to be here 2) Unhappy with contract.  Sometimes I read stuff online and it really makes sense why these guys are leaving.