Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

It pleases me to see BT anger you.

 

I will say though, I typically think of TDL acquisitions for playoff runs as along the same line as getting payday loans.    If you gotta, you gotta, but it's not a pat on the back kind of move.   You should be planning so that your team is a contender 5, 6 years in a row.  Rather than just waiting for one lucky year and throwing a hail mary.

 

I think you read something into what I said that wasn't there.

Not angry with him at all.

He builds during the summer which is fine.

But it doesn't always work out for those players.

 

What I also find is that he fails to gauge where the team is at TDL.

His goal and the owners goal is to make and win in the playoffs.

The TDL moves (lack of them) seems to belie this.

A lot of team make poor adds, but good ones make smart adds.

It isn't just about rentals.

It's about seeing who is available then.

The contenders are going to look for the pending UFA's.

 

My comments about Gaudreau and Tkachuk are pretty obvious, and ones that he will avoid at all costs.

 

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, LouCifer said:

Burn it to the ground and build it up, or push all your chips in and go out in a blaze of glory. 

 

Ya man, this is the year where there is no appetite to stand pat and go with what we've got.  Either go all in or blow it up.

 

In regards to blow it up, as a fan, I would give BT one more go at it.  He was a rookie his first time around and there were a lot of wins along the way.

[robrob74]

36 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya man, this is the year where there is no appetite to stand pat and go with what we've got.  Either go all in or blow it up.

 

In regards to blow it up, as a fan, I would give BT one more go at it.  He was a rookie his first time around and there were a lot of wins along the way.

 

i think my biggest problem with BT is that I don’t know if I saw actual vision. It seemed to take Sutter arriving to assemble the 4th line, although things I think BT was trying to do but seemed to fail at it. But even then, the top6 kind of might not have a plan, or he just hasn’t been able to make that deal to get that plan.

 

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

i think my biggest problem with BT is that I don’t know if I saw actual vision. It seemed to take Sutter arriving to assemble the 4th line, although things I think BT was trying to do but seemed to fail at it. But even then, the top6 kind of might not have a plan, or he just hasn’t been able to make that deal to get that plan.

 

Quite the opposite actually.  BT had a plan and a vision but he simply missed on each of them.

 

#1 Center - check.  he had Monahan who was trending well into a #1 Center.

#1B Center - check.  He drafted Sam Bennett and he looked so promising early.

#1 D - check.  Giordano

#1 G - check.  He drafted Macdonald and Gillies was trending very well.  With Parson and Schneider in the system as well, surely one of them would pan out.

 

You can even extend that to Backlund being a stud #3 Center and Hamilton as a stud RD.  Many young pieces were in place so from a technical standpoint, you can say the rebuild was complete and it's time to win the Cup.

 

Somewhere along the way, none of the goalies panned out.  Monahan ran into injury problems.  Sam Bennett didn't go right.  Giordano aged out of his prime.  And finally, BT reaching badly in UFA for RHS RW like Brouwer and Neal (and Coleman).

 

Was some of it just bad luck?  

 

I don't know why Adam Fox didn't sign with us.  We could of been sporting a reigning Norris D man this season.  What a difference it would make.  If we didn't trade for Hamilton then we could've drafted Barzal and have our #1 Center right there.  #1 Center problem solved.  And MAF was available during the VGK expansion off-season and it's said BT didn't even make an offer to PITs for MAF.

 

I don't know.  Every mistake and misfortune adds up and here we are.  2022 watching Sam Bennett win the Cup with FLA soon.

[LouCifer]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Quite the opposite actually.  BT had a plan and a vision but he simply missed on each of them.

 

#1 Center - check.  he had Monahan who was trending well into a #1 Center.

#1B Center - check.  He drafted Sam Bennett and he looked so promising early.

#1 D - check.  Giordano

#1 G - check.  He drafted Macdonald and Gillies was trending very well.  With Parson and Schneider in the system as well, surely one of them would pan out.

 

You can even extend that to Backlund being a stud #3 Center and Hamilton as a stud RD.  Many young pieces were in place so from a technical standpoint, you can say the rebuild was complete and it's time to win the Cup.

 

Somewhere along the way, none of the goalies panned out.  Monahan ran into injury problems.  Sam Bennett didn't go right.  Giordano aged out of his prime.  And finally, BT reaching badly in UFA for RHS RW like Brouwer and Neal (and Coleman).

 

Was some of it just bad luck?  

 

I don't know why Adam Fox didn't sign with us.  We could of been sporting a reigning Norris D man this season.  What a difference it would make.  If we didn't trade for Hamilton then we could've drafted Barzal and have our #1 Center right there.  #1 Center problem solved.  And MAF was available during the VGK expansion off-season and it's said BT didn't even make an offer to PITs for MAF.

 

I don't know.  Every mistake and misfortune adds up and here we are.  2022 watching Sam Bennett win the Cup with FLA soon.

Excellent post Peeps. I only highlighted the bolded portion because - if memory serves correct - I think rutherford was asking us for a 1st rounder for MAF and wasn’t that Chucky’s draft year? Even if it wasn’t, a 1st for a goalie that they were forced to move was a ridiculous ask. 
 

As for Bennett, I’m routing for him and I’m also happy for him. Wish it could’ve worked out here, but it didn’t, and I like the guy. Go get’em mustache! 

[conundrumed]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Quite the opposite actually.  BT had a plan and a vision but he simply missed on each of them.

 

#1 Center - check.  he had Monahan who was trending well into a #1 Center.

#1B Center - check.  He drafted Sam Bennett and he looked so promising early.

#1 D - check.  Giordano

#1 G - check.  He drafted Macdonald and Gillies was trending very well.  With Parson and Schneider in the system as well, surely one of them would pan out.

 

You can even extend that to Backlund being a stud #3 Center and Hamilton as a stud RD.  Many young pieces were in place so from a technical standpoint, you can say the rebuild was complete and it's time to win the Cup.

 

Somewhere along the way, none of the goalies panned out.  Monahan ran into injury problems.  Sam Bennett didn't go right.  Giordano aged out of his prime.  And finally, BT reaching badly in UFA for RHS RW like Brouwer and Neal (and Coleman).

 

Was some of it just bad luck?  

 

I don't know why Adam Fox didn't sign with us.  We could of been sporting a reigning Norris D man this season.  What a difference it would make.  If we didn't trade for Hamilton then we could've drafted Barzal and have our #1 Center right there.  #1 Center problem solved.  And MAF was available during the VGK expansion off-season and it's said BT didn't even make an offer to PITs for MAF.

 

I don't know.  Every mistake and misfortune adds up and here we are.  2022 watching Sam Bennett win the Cup with FLA soon.

I don't know peeps. The G position isn't resting on the laurels of drafting good jr goalies and expecting them to be your answer. We, of all teams, should know not to hype ANY draft pick. Yet we're doing it again with Coronato and Wolf. He never addressed the bottom 6 until Sutter showed up.

And we'll also be watching a $750,000 consistent hard-working Lomberg hoist a cup. We let him walk because who needs cheap, effective 4th liners come up through our system? Now that one annoys me. That's a huge miss for me due to having to get Lewis and Richardson to fill a 4th line. BT's the one that gave Lomberg a chance. Yet let him walk...

[phoenix66]

4 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Quite the opposite actually.  BT had a plan and a vision but he simply missed on each of them.

 

#1 Center - check.  he had Monahan who was trending well into a #1 Center.

#1B Center - check.  He drafted Sam Bennett and he looked so promising early.

#1 D - check.  Giordano

#1 G - check.  He drafted Macdonald and Gillies was trending very well.  With Parson and Schneider in the system as well, surely one of them would pan out.

 

You can even extend that to Backlund being a stud #3 Center and Hamilton as a stud RD.  Many young pieces were in place so from a technical standpoint, you can say the rebuild was complete and it's time to win the Cup.

 

Somewhere along the way, none of the goalies panned out.  Monahan ran into injury problems.  Sam Bennett didn't go right.  Giordano aged out of his prime.  And finally, BT reaching badly in UFA for RHS RW like Brouwer and Neal (and Coleman).

 

Was some of it just bad luck?  

 

I don't know why Adam Fox didn't sign with us.  We could of been sporting a reigning Norris D man this season.  What a difference it would make.  If we didn't trade for Hamilton then we could've drafted Barzal and have our #1 Center right there.  #1 Center problem solved.  And MAF was available during the VGK expansion off-season and it's said BT didn't even make an offer to PITs for MAF.

 

I don't know.  Every mistake and misfortune adds up and here we are.  2022 watching Sam Bennett win the Cup with FLA soon.

I've long Been one of BTs biggest supporters , and still think he's doing a good job..  but I am noticing a trend, that he may be judged for when it's all over ..that being not what he did , but what he didn't do..and it's mixed .

 

Valimaki better pan out to be a star otherwise his refusal to include him In deals for Stone and others will be a black mark..

 

I'm glad we don't have bishop or MAf cuz that would mean no chucky or valimaki. How much would we be hating that Bishop deal right now ?

 

We'll never know for sure what he wouldn't put in the deal for Eichel, but it sounds like somehwere in there was roster players he refused to move 

 

The Kadri deal and Zucker deal both would have looked like major wins .. we'll never 💯 know what cratered the Zucker deal but from how ticked he apparently was it sounds like it was on the Minnesota side.. 

 

Hall should be a flame right now , again..something wasn't allowed to be in the deal(s) he tried to make .. I think it may have included valimaki 

 

Stone , Kadri or even Hall..may have changed the script for Bennett.. it's apparent he can't carry a line but put with top flight wingers like Huberdeau night after night and look what he's doing ..we don't have a Huberdeau 

 

At some point I want to see him pull the trigger on a deal to bring in that stud we want where we cringe a little bit on what we give up..  The Carolina deal was close ..but at the end of the day and even at the time , we knew fox wasn't coming here..and Ferland was no longer able to play his game due to inuries ..so it was a calculated risk.. as good as Hamilton is , the way Elias has blossomed I'm not even sure Carolina makes that trade today 

 

Tkachuk in an Eichel deal would have fit that mold .. 

 

He needs to lose the fear I believe he has of Losing a deal.  We traded Brett Hull.. without that trade we are cupless.. Fletcher knew he was trading a great player (to be fair he later said I knew he was good but not THAT good lol) but he got back pieces we don't win a cup without 

He's gotta stop playing " win now " and protect the future at the same time .. can't do both 

 

 

I'll add to this , our best past success has come from what I can only call Ballsy moves..

We traded Kent Nilsson for a prospect (Joe)

We traded a 100 pt 50 goal player (Bullard) wound up with Gilmour and Hunter 

 

These were trades we weren't forced to make ..so I'll leave out the Fleury, Joe N and some others .. 

[MP5029]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Quite the opposite actually.  BT had a plan and a vision but he simply missed on each of them.

 

#1 Center - check.  he had Monahan who was trending well into a #1 Center.

#1B Center - check.  He drafted Sam Bennett and he looked so promising early.

#1 D - check.  Giordano

#1 G - check.  He drafted Macdonald and Gillies was trending very well.  With Parson and Schneider in the system as well, surely one of them would pan out.

 

You can even extend that to Backlund being a stud #3 Center and Hamilton as a stud RD.  Many young pieces were in place so from a technical standpoint, you can say the rebuild was complete and it's time to win the Cup.

 

Somewhere along the way, none of the goalies panned out.  Monahan ran into injury problems.  Sam Bennett didn't go right.  Giordano aged out of his prime.  And finally, BT reaching badly in UFA for RHS RW like Brouwer and Neal (and Coleman).

 

Was some of it just bad luck?  

 

I don't know why Adam Fox didn't sign with us.  We could of been sporting a reigning Norris D man this season.  What a difference it would make.  If we didn't trade for Hamilton then we could've drafted Barzal and have our #1 Center right there.  #1 Center problem solved.  And MAF was available during the VGK expansion off-season and it's said BT didn't even make an offer to PITs for MAF.

 

I don't know.  Every mistake and misfortune adds up and here we are.  2022 watching Sam Bennett win the Cup with FLA soon.

No not bad luck alone, much of it was a fail to realize:

 

1. some pieces either didn’t fit or were (in Bennett’s case) used incorrectly, huge mistake using Backlund as your #2 Ctr. He was an elite #3 Ctr.

 

2. holding on too long to players aka Gio

 

3. letting prices walk for nothing aka Brodie…sure the TO trade failed but he aught to have traded Brodie anywhere for if nothing else draft picks…he’d have lanes at least a 2nd and more likely a 1st, but even a 5th rounder would have been more than letting him walk to FA…same kinda applies to Gio…there were other options besides just Gio, had Gio been traded 2 years before like I said the situation would have been far different.

 

4. not going all in for the right guys, good teams go all in for the right guys, we lost on a lot key pieces, imagine if he had of a tied up for Anderson or Smith or both? 
 

5. Related to #4, also imagine had he done those moves and paid the prices, we not only would have had those guys but, we would have had Coleman, Neil/Lucic and Brewer…Our FA’s may have been something quite different, maybe more along the lines of the Tanev and Markstrom type deals…

 

no BT needs to find a way to close on key areas…2 seasons ago RW was the Galbraith hole, failing to fix that, we now have holes in not just the RW (1-3) but now our Ctr position (2-4) is in serious question and our D is missing that elite #1 stud or…the top pairing (aka the Gio/Brodie) 

 

it’s at a point where all in is not sensible, our asset values are diminishing too fast and our returns are next to nothing…we need to look at a team like Ott…they seen the window closing a few times and moved guys before they either lost them for nothing or their value became crap…

 

personally the smart move would be move guys now for as much as you can get, Backlund, Monahan, Gaudreau, Tanev etc…and if possible even Coleman.

 

make a decision call on Valimaki, my thoughts are keep him and pair him with Anderson….Kylington pair him with? And Hanifin is also another decision time guy, either keep him or move him. If you keep him here’s the D moving forward:

 

Valimaki/Anderson

Kylington/?

Hanifin/?
 

that’s not a bad start…you make the right trades for guys that fit and complement Hanifin and Kylington, you have the possible pairs that are kinda like the Gio/Brodie pair for a good long time. None may be the stud D, but the pairs are studs and that’s where BT seems to fail in terms of foresight and vision…now that’s not the only solution, the other options are move both Hanifin and Valimaki too and completely rebuild the D core…it’s pretty obvious Anderson and Kylington are now the untouchables on the D core but anyway the point is, this how you plan and build not by taking whatever is available…go after exactly what you need and if needed pay the prices you need to, look at Fla that team was built from the ground up and used those principles…BT gets too wrapped up in pipe dreams like Eichle, where the smart money was going after Reinhart now look at Fla…two guys I had screamed for are major difference makers in Fla Bennet and Reinhart…imagine 

 

Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm 

Tkachuck/Bennet/Reinhart 

Mani/ ???/???

 

that’s two solid lines and 1/3 of the 3rd line with very minimal changes.  The only reason the Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm line cooled off is because there was no other threats from the other lines, had you build that 2nd line and then team would be having some issues…add in a Dvorak/Strome and maybe a Toffoil or Rackell on that 3rd line and that’s 3 lines rolling that are a constant threat! 
 

anyway that window is closed and a huge missed opportunity.  Now it’s time to use a similar principle but with far more holes to fill and or replace.
 

 

[travel_dude]

The missed out on deals bother me the most.

Kadri was inevitable, since he was trying to crater a trade.

The missed Minny trade was some unreported technicality, so I'm not even sure it was Minny.

It was very late in the game, so could have been a busy fax.

The Sone was one that miffed me; unwilling to take a chance on signing him, so exclide the better prospect.

Eichel miss was bizarre.  

Sounded like they strung BT along and went public to extort more.

Think they lost big time on that trade.

 

I do agree that the ideas to make a trade are there but not the will.

He went picks for Hammy. 

He traded Hammy for future good to great players.

This were the last ones that really moved the needle.

 

Most impact deals are done in summer by BT.

That is fine, but you also don't have to wait to the TDL to swing a deal.

Teams were and are making players available.

The recent return to mediocre shoul signal that the team needs help.

All the good things done are being undone.

The bottom 6, with a few exceptions, is underwhelming.

Backlund is struggling and it's either him or the lack of fit with others.

No top 6 centers past the top line.

The Backlund bump is gone and Monahan is changing his game to fir not scoring.

Mostly because he's not getting opportunity other than PP time.

Didn't we learn from Bennett?

You can have skill playing just with grit?

[sak22]

I think a lot of errors happened in the transition period from Burke to BT, and the year after.  First off Hartley I believe when Burke took over was meant to be a lame duck coach, an experienced coach to guide young players, but was going to serve his contract and be done.  Instead he pulls a miracle in his contract year and puts BT in a bad situation of having to extend the lame duck coach off a fluke season, then he loses the room the next year and there is hesitation to fire him.  Secondly the Kings had just won their second cup in 3 years adding to Burke goal of truculence, leading to a horrible draft with a terrible trade for Bollig.  On top of that I think they could torn down a little more during the Feaster-Burke transition.  Not trading for Smid, or selling Stajan at the deadline instead of extending him for 4 years, holding on to Cammy at the deadline I didn't hate at that time but bugs me now more due to how all the other picks from that draft were wasted.

[jjgallow]

11 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya man, this is the year where there is no appetite to stand pat and go with what we've got.  Either go all in or blow it up.

 

In regards to blow it up, as a fan, I would give BT one more go at it.  He was a rookie his first time around and there were a lot of wins along the way.

 

So here's the thing.

 

I blame BT for a lot, but I never really know if it's him or the owners directing him.   I mean I mostly blame him for not planning for the future.   But that can also come from ownership.   And seems to be a trend when it comes to event centers too.

 

If it really is an owner thing, and that can never be truly ruled out, then yeah.  He deserves a chance under better direction.    OR, he needs the balls to change that direction.   As the heir to one of the greatest fortunes in Canada, I don't think he really needs the money.  He Should be able to tell the owners exactly what needs to really happen.  So on that premise, I've always put the blame somewhat on him.  I mean, he's worth more than some of those owners, all things considered.

 

But yeah.   Sure.  If it really is the owners who insist on never planning more than 6 months out, and he can change that narrative, I would change my tune on him.   I would need to see it happen first though.

[robrob74]

11 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Quite the opposite actually.  BT had a plan and a vision but he simply missed on each of them.

 

#1 Center - check.  he had Monahan who was trending well into a #1 Center.

#1B Center - check.  He drafted Sam Bennett and he looked so promising early.

#1 D - check.  Giordano

#1 G - check.  He drafted Macdonald and Gillies was trending very well.  With Parson and Schneider in the system as well, surely one of them would pan out.

 

You can even extend that to Backlund being a stud #3 Center and Hamilton as a stud RD.  Many young pieces were in place so from a technical standpoint, you can say the rebuild was complete and it's time to win the Cup.

 

Somewhere along the way, none of the goalies panned out.  Monahan ran into injury problems.  Sam Bennett didn't go right.  Giordano aged out of his prime.  And finally, BT reaching badly in UFA for RHS RW like Brouwer and Neal (and Coleman).

 

Was some of it just bad luck?  

 

I don't know why Adam Fox didn't sign with us.  We could of been sporting a reigning Norris D man this season.  What a difference it would make.  If we didn't trade for Hamilton then we could've drafted Barzal and have our #1 Center right there.  #1 Center problem solved.  And MAF was available during the VGK expansion off-season and it's said BT didn't even make an offer to PITs for MAF.

 

I don't know.  Every mistake and misfortune adds up and here we are.  2022 watching Sam Bennett win the Cup with FLA soon.

 

 

I think there were some plans. But I think that's where you need to have the plans deeper. 

I think they should have developed Sammy a bit more, like they did with Monahan. Play him as a C right away. If he didn't fit as a C, play him in the minors, or play him with guys not named Brouwer. Looking back then, they should have played him with Versteeg and Frolik maybe? It seems like we are a deeper roster now, yet, not even that much deeper than then. 

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I don't know peeps. The G position isn't resting on the laurels of drafting good jr goalies and expecting them to be your answer. We, of all teams, should know not to hype ANY draft pick. Yet we're doing it again with Coronato and Wolf. He never addressed the bottom 6 until Sutter showed up.

And we'll also be watching a $750,000 consistent hard-working Lomberg hoist a cup. We let him walk because who needs cheap, effective 4th liners come up through our system? Now that one annoys me. That's a huge miss for me due to having to get Lewis and Richardson to fill a 4th line. BT's the one that gave Lomberg a chance. Yet let him walk...

 

Lomberg would be good for the 4th line. But maybe with Lewis, who I am ok with. But maybe not as ok with Richardson or Pitlick. 

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I think there were some plans. But I think that's where you need to have the plans deeper. 

I think they should have developed Sammy a bit more, like they did with Monahan. Play him as a C right away. If he didn't fit as a C, play him in the minors, or play him with guys not named Brouwer. Looking back then, they should have played him with Versteeg and Frolik maybe? It seems like we are a deeper roster now, yet, not even that much deeper than then. 

 

Yeah the plan does need to be deeper.    Another way of looking at it, is that if your plan only covers the left-hand side of the ice, then you have only half a plan.

 

And you will create gluts, which will lead to Bennett situations.

[cross16]

I will be surprised if Treliving loses his job this year. With one year left on his deal and Sutter's I think they see this thing through so even if the Flames miss the playoffs this year I'll be surprised if he was let go. The cavate to that is perhaps someone like Conroy is really well liked by the owners and they make a move like that, but to let him go and go external would surprise me. 

 

I'm still of the opinion that Treliving is a good GM, has done an ok to good job, and most of the what has transpired here is you can't directly put on him. The drafting and developing under him has been fantastic, yes Bennett is a big black mark but outside of that's it's been VERY good, and I think the organization is actually as strong as it's been in a long time. I think the biggest reason why the Flames didn't ascend up to a higher status is Treliving bet on Monahan and Gaudrea being that high end duo. he was right on one of them, wrong on the other and then combine that with Bennett the Flames just don't have the center to be competitive with cup contending teams. I personally have a hard time blaming Treliving for that because at the time it sure looked like the right move to me, it just didn't work out.  For me he made 2 glaring errors that hurt the team and that was the Hamonic trade and the Brouwer contract. He shouldn't have given Neal the contract he did, especially the term, but I also see why he did it so I have a had time putting that in the horrible category. The result was horrible but I don't think the process of that decision was. 

 

As I've said before perhaps you can blame him more for the lack of patience in a rebuild but I'm just not sure you can. I just don't think that's the way this club operates so while I would have prefered more patience in his early years, and a decision to rebuild last year, I'm just not convinced he is in control of those decisions. 

 

I am fine discussing the merits of moving on from Treliving but for me there are 2 main questions that you need to answer:

1) Who are you bringing in?

2) What is he going to do differently?

 

Personally i'm not of the opinion that just simply swapping out the GM is going to fix this, nor am I a believer of the "well he had his turn so let's try someone else now" idea. This organization has done that and let's call a spade a space they are not good at hiring GMs. Treliving is probably the 2nd best GM this organization has ever hired so count me skeptical that it's going to be easy to "upgrade" over him. If you want to move on, then the organization has to be prepared to do things differently and if you are not, then I don't see this getting better with a new GM. 

 

 

[The_People1]

On 1/16/2022 at 7:04 AM, LouCifer said:

Excellent post Peeps. I only highlighted the bolded portion because - if memory serves correct - I think rutherford was asking us for a 1st rounder for MAF and wasn’t that Chucky’s draft year? Even if it wasn’t, a 1st for a goalie that they were forced to move was a ridiculous ask. 
 

As for Bennett, I’m routing for him and I’m also happy for him. Wish it could’ve worked out here, but it didn’t, and I like the guy. Go get’em mustache! 

 

The 1st would've been the Valimaki year but by all accounts, PITs was asking for a 2nd rounder.  They were losing MAF to VGK for nothing.

 

Same here with Bennett.  He was a real professional here with the Flames even when it was obvious the team was treating him badly.  Hope he does well in FLA.

[The_People1]

On 1/16/2022 at 7:45 AM, conundrumed said:

I don't know peeps. The G position isn't resting on the laurels of drafting good jr goalies and expecting them to be your answer. 

 

Agreed but just showing BT's thought process.  G is voodoo so can't rest even with a talented pool of kids coming up but that appears to be exactly what BT was thinking.  He never traded for a stud G or targeting one until it became clear Gillies and gang were all busts.  I feel he felt he's got a starting G and ended the rebuild.

 

Maybe his most fatal mistake to date.

[sak22]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

The 1st would've been the Valimaki year but by all accounts, PITs was asking for a 2nd rounder.  They were losing MAF to VGK for nothing.

 

Same here with Bennett.  He was a real professional here with the Flames even when it was obvious the team was treating him badly.  Hope he does well in FLA.

I believe it was after the '16 and Pittsburgh's first of back to backs that they weren't eager to move Fleury so put the high ask for him, which was rumored to be the Tkachuk pick.  Instead they kept him and basically made the agreement with him that they would only move him to Vegas, or at least that's what I thought I read.  I don't know if there was even any shopping him during the '17 season and he was a GK before the '17 entry draft.

[The_People1]

On 1/16/2022 at 8:11 AM, phoenix66 said:

I've long Been one of BTs biggest supporters , and still think he's doing a good job..  but I am noticing a trend, that he may be judged for when it's all over ..that being not what he did , but what he didn't do..and it's mixed .

 

Valimaki better pan out to be a star otherwise his refusal to include him In deals for Stone and others will be a black mark..

 

I'm glad we don't have bishop or MAf cuz that would mean no chucky or valimaki. How much would we be hating that Bishop deal right now ?

 

We'll never know for sure what he wouldn't put in the deal for Eichel, but it sounds like somehwere in there was roster players he refused to move 

 

The Kadri deal and Zucker deal both would have looked like major wins .. we'll never 💯 know what cratered the Zucker deal but from how ticked he apparently was it sounds like it was on the Minnesota side.. 

 

Hall should be a flame right now , again..something wasn't allowed to be in the deal(s) he tried to make .. I think it may have included valimaki 

 

Stone , Kadri or even Hall..may have changed the script for Bennett.. it's apparent he can't carry a line but put with top flight wingers like Huberdeau night after night and look what he's doing ..we don't have a Huberdeau 

 

At some point I want to see him pull the trigger on a deal to bring in that stud we want where we cringe a little bit on what we give up..  The Carolina deal was close ..but at the end of the day and even at the time , we knew fox wasn't coming here..and Ferland was no longer able to play his game due to inuries ..so it was a calculated risk.. as good as Hamilton is , the way Elias has blossomed I'm not even sure Carolina makes that trade today 

 

Tkachuk in an Eichel deal would have fit that mold .. 

 

He needs to lose the fear I believe he has of Losing a deal.  We traded Brett Hull.. without that trade we are cupless.. Fletcher knew he was trading a great player (to be fair he later said I knew he was good but not THAT good lol) but he got back pieces we don't win a cup without 

He's gotta stop playing " win now " and protect the future at the same time .. can't do both 

 

 

I'll add to this , our best past success has come from what I can only call Ballsy moves..

We traded Kent Nilsson for a prospect (Joe)

We traded a 100 pt 50 goal player (Bullard) wound up with Gilmour and Hunter 

 

These were trades we weren't forced to make ..so I'll leave out the Fleury, Joe N and some others .. 

 

MAF took VGK to the finals the following year so he could've done the same for us.  We were also division champs the year after that and if only we had a G like MAF instead of Mike Smith.  We will never know but for sure, we struggled to find a consistent G until Markstrom.  Again, if I'm reading BT's mind correctly, he surely thought one of Gillies or Macdonald would've emerged as a starter.

 

Agreed, can't blame him for Kadri because Kadri turned us down.  BT did try.

 

In regards to what he didn't do, ya, there was a year or two where, as per Conroy, "the players didn't try their best so it's hard for us to really understand what we have in this group...". Not verbatim but generally speaking.  Management wasted a lot of time deciding if we were contenders or pretenders.  As a result, were stagnant in evaluation.

 

And ironically now, he may be gone because of what he didn't do.  Didn't go all in for Eichel.  Didn't get Chychrun.  Etc.

[The_People1]

12 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I believe it was after the '16 and Pittsburgh's first of back to backs that they weren't eager to move Fleury so put the high ask for him, which was rumored to be the Tkachuk pick.  Instead they kept him and basically made the agreement with him that they would only move him to Vegas, or at least that's what I thought I read.  I don't know if there was even any shopping him during the '17 season and he was a GK before the '17 entry draft.

 

I think it was leaked last season or the season before that BT never even talked to PITs about MAF.  We all assumed BT asked about MAF but... Who knows now.  Perhaps PIT made the insane offer and BT shut the phone and never called back.

[sak22]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think it was leaked last season or the season before that BT never even talked to PITs about MAF.  We all assumed BT asked about MAF but... Who knows now.  Perhaps PIT made the insane offer and BT shut the phone and never called back.

I think Rutherford put it out he was only taking a first for him that year, quite understandable that BT would never call.   So we probably just assumed the cost would've been Tkachuk.

[The_People1]

On 1/16/2022 at 8:15 AM, MP5029 said:

No not bad luck alone, much of it was a fail to realize:

 

1. some pieces either didn’t fit or were (in Bennett’s case) used incorrectly, huge mistake using Backlund as your #2 Ctr. He was an elite #3 Ctr.

 

2. holding on too long to players aka Gio

 

3. letting prices walk for nothing aka Brodie…sure the TO trade failed but he aught to have traded Brodie anywhere for if nothing else draft picks…he’d have lanes at least a 2nd and more likely a 1st, but even a 5th rounder would have been more than letting him walk to FA…same kinda applies to Gio…there were other options besides just Gio, had Gio been traded 2 years before like I said the situation would have been far different.

 

4. not going all in for the right guys, good teams go all in for the right guys, we lost on a lot key pieces, imagine if he had of a tied up for Anderson or Smith or both? 
 

5. Related to #4, also imagine had he done those moves and paid the prices, we not only would have had those guys but, we would have had Coleman, Neil/Lucic and Brewer…Our FA’s may have been something quite different, maybe more along the lines of the Tanev and Markstrom type deals…

 

no BT needs to find a way to close on key areas…2 seasons ago RW was the Galbraith hole, failing to fix that, we now have holes in not just the RW (1-3) but now our Ctr position (2-4) is in serious question and our D is missing that elite #1 stud or…the top pairing (aka the Gio/Brodie) 

 

it’s at a point where all in is not sensible, our asset values are diminishing too fast and our returns are next to nothing…we need to look at a team like Ott…they seen the window closing a few times and moved guys before they either lost them for nothing or their value became crap…

 

personally the smart move would be move guys now for as much as you can get, Backlund, Monahan, Gaudreau, Tanev etc…and if possible even Coleman.

 

make a decision call on Valimaki, my thoughts are keep him and pair him with Anderson….Kylington pair him with? And Hanifin is also another decision time guy, either keep him or move him. If you keep him here’s the D moving forward:

 

Valimaki/Anderson

Kylington/?

Hanifin/?
 

that’s not a bad start…you make the right trades for guys that fit and complement Hanifin and Kylington, you have the possible pairs that are kinda like the Gio/Brodie pair for a good long time. None may be the stud D, but the pairs are studs and that’s where BT seems to fail in terms of foresight and vision…now that’s not the only solution, the other options are move both Hanifin and Valimaki too and completely rebuild the D core…it’s pretty obvious Anderson and Kylington are now the untouchables on the D core but anyway the point is, this how you plan and build not by taking whatever is available…go after exactly what you need and if needed pay the prices you need to, look at Fla that team was built from the ground up and used those principles…BT gets too wrapped up in pipe dreams like Eichle, where the smart money was going after Reinhart now look at Fla…two guys I had screamed for are major difference makers in Fla Bennet and Reinhart…imagine 

 

Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm 

Tkachuck/Bennet/Reinhart 

Mani/ ???/???

 

that’s two solid lines and 1/3 of the 3rd line with very minimal changes.  The only reason the Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm line cooled off is because there was no other threats from the other lines, had you build that 2nd line and then team would be having some issues…add in a Dvorak/Strome and maybe a Toffoil or Rackell on that 3rd line and that’s 3 lines rolling that are a constant threat! 
 

anyway that window is closed and a huge missed opportunity.  Now it’s time to use a similar principle but with far more holes to fill and or replace.

 

Well my general point was, it's easy to look at where we are today and say BT had no plan and no vision from the beginning because we appear to be in such a mess when it comes to the right mix of players.  Lines are mumbled jumbled.  We've got $5-and-$6-mil guys playing 4th line.  BT has reached badly via UFA to fill depth.  G has been a revolving door for years.  Etc.

 

I feel the plan and vision was clear.  BT simply missed on, well, unfortunately... Almost everything.

[jjgallow]

 

39 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well my general point was, it's easy to look at where we are today and say BT had no plan and no vision from the beginning because we appear to be in such a mess when it comes to the right mix of players.  Lines are mumbled jumbled.  We've got $5-and-$6-mil guys playing 4th line.  BT has reached badly via UFA to fill depth.  G has been a revolving door for years.  Etc.

 

I feel the plan and vision was clear.  BT simply missed on, well, unfortunately... Almost everything.

 

That's fair.  I guess it's just interpretation.

 

The only way I say lack of planning was just how obvious the misses were...I wasn't able to conceive them being accidents.  Lucic for instance, who you alluded to.  I love Lucic.  Love him.   But, when we acquired him, honestly did anyone not see a huge mess near the end of his contract, for that matter most of his contract?   I just don't understand how that could be missed.

 

When we acquired Hanifan, with a league-wide reputation for lacking defensive skills.   And I must say those have improved, but at the cost of his offensive development...  Did anyone really see an outcome differently from what we have now?  I could not have imagined a different outcome.

 

Hanging on to Brodies and Giordanos until their value went to zero.  Same thing.

 

In each case, the only explanation I can think of for the moves was short term need.   And true to form, many on here were happy with many of his moves....at the exact moment that they were made (not all, of course).  Lucic was a big name when we acquired him.   He was just on the edge of impact player status.   We all knew that only had months remaining on it.   But still.

 

So I termed that lack of planning, you could also argue his focus was just too short term for him to ever build anything substantial in the time allotted to him.    Was Lucic a miss?  If we thought he was going to remain a superstar level impact player with the treads on those tires after the age of 30, then....yes...he was a miss.   Maybe BT really thought that, and in that case, yes.  He has a big problem in the miss department.

[Heartbreaker]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I will be surprised if Treliving loses his job this year...

Yeah, I think that this is a great post. I don't understand the appetite to be rid of him that I read on the boards at times. I think that there are only a handful of better GMs in the league currently, and they aren't available.

 

I agree with you about the Hamonic and Brouwer acquisitions. I have no issue with the first and two seconds that went for Dougie Hamilton, but it was far too steep a price to pay for Travis Hamonic. Ironically, the Hamilton trade set the market value for Hamonic, I think. He may have been worth that two or three seasons sooner, but it was steep at the time, and it didn't pan out.

That all said, I don't usually get angry with the GM when the obvious moves don't work out. I remember watching the 2014 draft from a sports bar in Toronto, and when the fourth selection was to be made, I was thinking, "Just make the obvious choice, Brad..."

 

There had been some rumblings about going off the board, and I was worried about that at the time. If you recall, Sam Bennett was the number one ranked North American skater that year, and his value really only dipped after the combine. Sam Reinhart had an excellent showing in the months leading up to the draft, and had it not been for the Oilers having a stable of similar forwards - Hall, Nugent-Hopkins, Yakupov, and Eberle - he very likely would have been gone by the fourth pick. Treliving picked him up, and I was elated. It was his development in the years to follow that were infuriating, and that was the responsibility of a lot more staff than just the GM. At the end of the day, he had to be shipped out for pennies on the dollar, and it doesn't look like the Flames got a bad deal.

There have been a few posts on this board suggesting that Darryl Sutter should be the successor to Brad Treliving. Does anyone remember Darryl Sutter as Flames GM? I realize that he orchestrated the trade that brought the best goaltender in franchise history for a second-round pick (Marc-Édouard Vlasic), but the drafting was absolutely terrible. While I will admit that some of the trades worked out pretty well - Mike Cammalleri, Kristian Huselius, Alex Tanguay - there was also the disastrous Dion Phaneuf trade, and the dealing of high picks like as if they're meaningless to the building of an organization.

There have been a large number of trades that haven't worked out for the Flames under Brad Treliving. He has been in on all of the big fish that have been available over the years - Eichel, Bishop (twice), Fleury, Kadri, Zucker, Hall - but has, with the exception of Hamonic, not really been burned on any of them, and has, in my opinion not really blown any of them either. He has also acquired many additional picks in the draft. I'm as sore as anyone else about Adam Fox, but he was never going to sign in Calgary. It pains me to see him do so well, as I'd had really high hopes for him in Calgary. He'd be our Cale Makar, and he was, not surprisingly, a Treliving pick.

When it comes to trades, it needs to be agreed upon by at least two teams. There are lots of additional factors as well, like the salary cap, clauses, term, etc... I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that the majority of players that have selective trade clauses have the Flames on their no-trade lists. Whether or not we like to acknowledge it here, we are a small-market team based in Canada, where the weather is bad, federal taxes are high, and we can't even get a decent facility sorted out. I really do think that he has done a very good job with the tools and pieces that he has had available, and the Flames are a much more competitive team because he's at the helm.

Of course, I would listen to anybody argue a better choice were they to become available, but at least we're not the Canucks or the Oilers.

Love.

[The_People1]

On 1/16/2022 at 11:57 AM, sak22 said:

I think a lot of errors happened in the transition period from Burke to BT, and the year after.  First off Hartley I believe when Burke took over was meant to be a lame duck coach, an experienced coach to guide young players, but was going to serve his contract and be done.  Instead he pulls a miracle in his contract year and puts BT in a bad situation of having to extend the lame duck coach off a fluke season, then he loses the room the next year and there is hesitation to fire him.  Secondly the Kings had just won their second cup in 3 years adding to Burke goal of truculence, leading to a horrible draft with a terrible trade for Bollig.  On top of that I think they could torn down a little more during the Feaster-Burke transition.  Not trading for Smid, or selling Stajan at the deadline instead of extending him for 4 years, holding on to Cammy at the deadline I didn't hate at that time but bugs me now more due to how all the other picks from that draft were wasted.

 

Agreed that the handoff wasn't clean but at the same time, Burke served as BT's training wheels and I felt BT needed it as this was his first stint as GM.

 

Burke went full truculence.  Then Burke leaves and it became clear BT wanted small skilled guys and the draft reflected that.  We began to focus on small skilled guys.  I think BT felt the league was trending towards small/skilled and to a degree, he was right.  Still is... Until the playoffs of course.  Playoffs is another type of league.

 

We now pivot to Sutter hockey.  BT drops the Derek Ryan types and adds Lewis and company.  Builds a proper 4th line to play specific roles.

 

In regards to the fluke season, BT did trade Glencross at the TDL going into the playoffs.  That really took some guts.  I guess he thought we wouldn't get to the second round.  After we advanced, then BT drank the koolaid and pretty much decided our rebuild was over.