Flames Defense

[Cowtownguy]

39 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

The problem is the 2nd pair, who will save them from themselves?

We saw it last night, Gio leads the rush in deep, Hamilton decides that's a good time to pinch.

Hamilton has scored quite a few goals while pinching in. The problem, as you note, is that he often does it at the wrong time and gets caught. Given defencemen usually polarize a bit (one becomes more defensive than the other), I suspect that Gio is more reluctant to pinch in when he might have at other times. 

 

20 minutes ago, DHT said:

I completely agree with you with the exception on pairing Brodie with Hamilton. Gio covered for Hamilton's mistakes and Hamonic covered for Brodie's mistakes. Brodie and Hamonic combo is like watching a bad marriage trying to be together when in fact, divorce is the best things for them. I'm surprised that GG did not try to put, Brodie with Stone, and Kulak with Hamonic, and spread the D evenly for these two pairs rather than forcing them into #3 and #4 Ds respectively. GG logic and decision making is questionable all season. I think that the entire coaching staffs should be gone this summer and one player at the top of list to be traded is Brodie.

I usually think that talent will work itself out despite line combinations. As you say, there are a few bad marriages on this team. I believe that we really do have some of the top defencemen in the league. I believe that they are not being utilized properly. 

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, DHT said:

I completely agree with you with the exception on pairing Brodie with Hamilton. Gio covered for Hamilton's mistakes and Hamonic covered for Brodie's mistakes. Brodie and Hamonic combo is like watching a bad marriage trying to be together when in fact, divorce is the best things for them. I'm surprised that GG did not try to put, Brodie with Stone, and Kulak with Hamonic, and spread the D evenly for these two pairs rather than forcing them into #3 and #4 Ds respectively. GG logic and decision making is questionable all season. I think that the entire coaching staffs should be gone this summer and one player at the top of list to be traded is Brodie.

 

I think that if you subtract Brodie and Stone from the available options, you have a much clearer picture.  We can only afford 3 guys making big dollars, not 5.  Bigger needs elsewhere on the team.

 

Gio-Hamonic

??-Hamilton

Kulak-??

 

Pick the rest from our available prospects and farm hands.  Kylington, Andersson, Wotherspoon, Fox, Valimaki.  Set up the 2nd and 3rd pairs according to how well they play as a unit.  Dougie needs a defensive player that can skate.  Kulak needs a player with great vision.  The 7th guy needs to be able to sit for games at a time and step into the mix. 

 

[redfire11]

I'm not thrilled with the prospect of trading Brodie; but whom else can we trade off the flames that we couldn't replace internally and could bring us back a good player we need? Bennett? I'm not giving up on him yet Too much potential for minimal cost. Ferland? He is worth more to us than we would get in a trade. Frolik? Worth more to us than trade return.

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

I'm not thrilled with the prospect of trading Brodie; but whom else can we trade off the flames that we couldn't replace internally and could bring us back a good player we need? Bennett? I'm not giving up on him yet Too much potential for minimal cost. Ferland? He is worth more to us than we would get in a trade. Frolik? Worth more to us than trade return.

 

The thing about trades is that it's as much about changing the complexion of the team.  Brodie has become too predictable on offence.  Skate in, skate behind the net, pass to nobody.  Stone is just plain bad, so I don;t even care what we would get in return.  Frolik is underrated, but I don;t know if you can keep him and Backlund together and retool it into a top shutdown line.  He also hasn;t been the same player this year.  Bennett?  Where does he fit now and where is any of that potential?  I've got no issue with Ferland.  He has consistency issues, and he may be injured, but I wouldn't consider him part of the core.  No point in trading him, but not exactly sure where he fits.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think that if you subtract Brodie and Stone from the available options, you have a much clearer picture.  We can only afford 3 guys making big dollars, not 5.  Bigger needs elsewhere on the team.

 

Gio-Hamonic

??-Hamilton

Kulak-??

 

Pick the rest from our available prospects and farm hands.  Kylington, Andersson, Wotherspoon, Fox, Valimaki.  Set up the 2nd and 3rd pairs according to how well they play as a unit.  Dougie needs a defensive player that can skate.  Kulak needs a player with great vision.  The 7th guy needs to be able to sit for games at a time and step into the mix. 

 

 

 

Youre totally right! 

 

Brodie can be a pretty good trade piece. Andersson comes in and could be a good transition from Hamonic in the long run. Then we have Valamaki as well. 

 

Could we trade Brodie at the draft & possibly gain a 1st? Or do we need to trade an Offensive D for someone a little more stable back there (to make a sideways deal)?

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Youre totally right! 

 

Brodie can be a pretty good trade piece. Andersson comes in and could be a good transition from Hamonic in the long run. Then we have Valamaki as well. 

 

Could we trade Brodie at the draft & possibly gain a 1st? Or do we need to trade an Offensive D for someone a little more stable back there (to make a sideways deal)?

 

I don;t know his value in other GM's eyes.

I don;t think we should make a sideways deal for Brodie.  It has to address the top 6.

Personally, I think that Kulak could step into the top 4.  Not sure if he fits Hammy, but it's an option.  

Valimaki could be top 4 already, but I have my doubts.  So young.  Big ask.

Kylington is interesting, since he's supposedly improved his defense.  Still really young, but he's a great skater.

 

[MAC331]

18 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Youre totally right! 

 

Brodie can be a pretty good trade piece. Andersson comes in and could be a good transition from Hamonic in the long run. Then we have Valamaki as well. 

 

Could we trade Brodie at the draft & possibly gain a 1st? Or do we need to trade an Offensive D for someone a little more stable back there (to make a sideways deal)?

I think Brodie is flip a coin consideration. He is a good player this team still needs but if he can net you a better player of need BT strongly has to consider using him. I really don't think this team is as bad as some want to make it out to be. Once you move out some of the redundancy such as Stajan, Versteeg, Brouwer and Stone the remaining hole get more clearly defined and then decide if we have inside options ready or BT has to go outside. We need to use the experience the team has created and put it to better use IMO.

Gaudreau, Monahan, ???????

Bennett, Backlund, Frolik

Tkachuk, Jankowski, ???????

Ferland, Shore, ????????

If the plan is to roll 4 really good line this represents as good a LW side ever. BT needs to seriously evaluate our RW options Hathaway, Lazar, Foo, Gawdin,  who else ?

LW depth: Mangiapane, Lomberg, Klimchuk, Poirier, Pollock

C depth: Shinkaruk, Dube

I like the possibilities for our Defense next season and how it could set up situations for future moves once more experience is gained.

Giordano, Hamilton

Brodie, Andersson

Kulak, Hamonic

Wotherspoon

GOALIES: Smith, Rittich, Gilles, Parsons, MacDonald, Schneider

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I think Brodie is flip a coin consideration. He is a good player this team still needs but if he can net you a better player of need BT strongly has to consider using him. I really don't think this team is as bad as some want to make it out to be. Once you move out some of the redundancy such as Stajan, Versteeg, Brouwer and Stone the remaining hole get more clearly defined and then decide if we have inside options ready or BT has to go outside. We need to use the experience the team has created and put it to better use IMO.

Gaudreau, Monahan, ???????    <=================

Bennett, Backlund, Frolik

Tkachuk, Jankowski, ???????   <=================

Ferland, Shore, ????????          <=================

If the plan is to roll 4 really good line this represents as good a LW side ever. BT needs to seriously evaluate our RW options Hathaway, Lazar, Foo, Gawdin,  who else ?

LW depth: Mangiapane, Lomberg, Klimchuk, Poirier, Pollock

C depth: Shinkaruk, Dube

I like the possibilities for our Defense next season and how it could set up situations for future moves once more experience is gained.

Giordano, Hamilton

Brodie, Andersson

Kulak, Hamonic

Wotherspoon

GOALIES: Smith, Rittich, Gilles, Parsons, MacDonald, Schneider

Pretty obvious where our greatest lineup weaknesses are.....

[MAC331]

35 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Pretty obvious where our greatest lineup weaknesses are.....

The RWs we have now and coming on are at most 3rd and 4th line options IMO. Mind you I think they are talented enough to be good options. The glaring position is top line RW and I don't think anyone is giving up one via a trade. We don't have the trade pieces to be going after anyone's top talent. Can our scouting dig out a gem for us ?

[cross16]

On 2018-03-17 at 0:49 AM, The_People1 said:

 

You must be joking me.  Or better yet, Hamonic must be joking us.  He feels this is his best year ever?  If he's happy with his own play, then he needs to go.  He just moved himself to the top of our trade list.

 

Agreed. If this is the best Hamonic can play Well that's a huge miss by the Flames pro scouts and the Flames are not in good shape for the next few years on their D. 

 

Hes been better lately but I still have not been impressed with Hamonic. he's basically a 4/5 defensive man so at his cap hit it isn't awful but it's well below the price paid to acquire him. 

[MAC331]

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎17 at 2:28 PM, robrob74 said:

 

 

Youre totally right! 

 

Brodie can be a pretty good trade piece. Andersson comes in and could be a good transition from Hamonic in the long run. Then we have Valamaki as well. 

 

Could we trade Brodie at the draft & possibly gain a 1st? Or do we need to trade an Offensive D for someone a little more stable back there (to make a sideways deal)?

If BT could gain back a 1st round pick using Brodie in a deal he shouldn't think twice IMO. He was what a 4th round pick and has given us some good seasons.

[cross16]

Get it will mostly be negative around here today and that's fine but in a positive light, I like Rasmus Anderson last night. when he was drafted the complaint was foot speed and conditioning and could those 2 things improve enough to get him to the next level. Conditioning remains to be seen, but by all accounts he's gotten better, but I definitely saw improved foot speed last night. I actually thought he moved very effortless around the ice, which wasn't the case earlier in his career.

 

Absolutely positively, without any question has to be on the club next year. His ceiling is moving higher and higher IMO.

[The_People1]

On 3/18/2018 at 8:57 PM, cross16 said:

 

Agreed. If this is the best Hamonic can play Well that's a huge miss by the Flames pro scouts and the Flames are not in good shape for the next few years on their D. 

 

Hes been better lately but I still have not been impressed with Hamonic. he's basically a 4/5 defensive man so at his cap hit it isn't awful but it's well below the price paid to acquire him. 

 

I've seen him better when he was with the Islanders.  I think many around the league has.  He was way more aggressive and his first stride was explosive very similar to when Giordano closes in on a guy, that first step is pure power.

 

But we don't see that version of Hamonic anymore. He's so passive and easy to get around.

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I've seen him better when he was with the Islanders.  I think many around the league has.  He was way more aggressive and his first stride was explosive very similar to when Giordano closes in on a guy, that first step is pure power.

 

But we don't see that version of Hamonic anymore. He's so passive and easy to get around.

 

Agreed. I remember being very interested when he first asked for a trade, watching him and getting excited about what he could do, and then when you read a lot about him last year even the Islander media (who love him as a person) were starting to turn on him. It seems like after he hurt his knee a couple seasons ago he just has not been the same player. 

 

Trade aside, he is still OK at his current contract value and play. Not great but you can stomach a top 4 dman making under 4 million. I also think some of Hamonic's strength's were neutralized by Smith and yes playing with Brodie doesn't help, but I was expecting a player that did the little things right. Good gap control, good body control, smart sticks and I just don't see much of that. 

[robrob74]

28 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Agreed. I remember being very interested when he first asked for a trade, watching him and getting excited about what he could do, and then when you read a lot about him last year even the Islander media (who love him as a person) were starting to turn on him. It seems like after he hurt his knee a couple seasons ago he just has not been the same player. 

 

Trade aside, he is still OK at his current contract value and play. Not great but you can stomach a top 4 dman making under 4 million. I also think some of Hamonic's strength's were neutralized by Smith and yes playing with Brodie doesn't help, but I was expecting a player that did the little things right. Good gap control, good body control, smart sticks and I just don't see much of that. 

 

He kind of reminds me of Hamilton in his first year. First time with a new team, first time with a new nhl coach. Hamonic has only had one other nhl coach. New city. New players he has to get used to after playing for years with the same guys the whole time. 

[cross16]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

He kind of reminds me of Hamilton in his first year. First time with a new team, first time with a new nhl coach. Hamonic has only had one other nhl coach. New city. New players he has to get used to after playing for years with the same guys the whole time. 

 

I wish I could share your optimism but I see this stretching back 2 seasons now of poor play, it's not like it was new. Hamilton was good in Boston, struggled for the first quarter or so of his season and then was good so I see the story as quite different than Hamonic. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Agreed. I remember being very interested when he first asked for a trade, watching him and getting excited about what he could do, and then when you read a lot about him last year even the Islander media (who love him as a person) were starting to turn on him. It seems like after he hurt his knee a couple seasons ago he just has not been the same player. 

 

Trade aside, he is still OK at his current contract value and play. Not great but you can stomach a top 4 dman making under 4 million. I also think some of Hamonic's strength's were neutralized by Smith and yes playing with Brodie doesn't help, but I was expecting a player that did the little things right. Good gap control, good body control, smart sticks and I just don't see much of that. 

 

Ya same here.  When he was first rumored to want out of New York, I was interested.  Watched a few Islanders games and ya, like I said, he could go from standing still gaurding the front of the net to full speed into the corner for a loose puck in one stride.  His explosive first step was that good.  He closed off gaps, made good reads, pinned guys along the boards, made a good first pass, etc. 

 

I also remember watching him in his rookie season.  He was a solid puck mover because he can skate well for a big guy.  He often found himself on the first unit PP.

 

Where is that version of Hamonic?  And to hear that he thinks this is his best year ever is, well, he can't be serious.  He must be reading a script to the media for show.  This is objectively the worst season of his career.

[ABC923]

52 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya same here.  When he was first rumored to want out of New York, I was interested.  Watched a few Islanders games and ya, like I said, he could go from standing still gaurding the front of the net to full speed into the corner for a loose puck in one stride.  His explosive first step was that good.  He closed off gaps, made good reads, pinned guys along the boards, made a good first pass, etc. 

 

I also remember watching him in his rookie season.  He was a solid puck mover because he can skate well for a big guy.  He often found himself on the first unit PP.

 

Where is that version of Hamonic?  And to hear that he thinks this is his best year ever is, well, he can't be serious.  He must be reading a script to the media for show.  This is objectively the worst season of his career.

Certainly not his best, but it is debatable if it is his worst.  Last year was truly awful for him; while he put up more points, he was a -21 over just 49 games, and was caved in from a possession stand point.  This year is a near carbon copy of his 2015-2016 season, with fewer points and hits.  You have to go back to 2014-2015 to find a truly great season, where he was +15 with 33 points and over 200 hits.  What happened to his physicality by the way? Only 79 hits this season, the fewest in his career outside of lockout and injury shortened seasons.

 

Edit: That's only 7 more hits than Hamilton, btw.

[The_People1]

So what do we think of Hamonic's game now that he's without Brodie?

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

So what do we think of Hamonic's game now that he's without Brodie?

 

There were brief times where he played without Brodie and looked better (PK with Gio).

Many will probably say that Brodie does not mesh well with Hammer.  I would be one of them.

My opinion is that T-Spoon should be brought up to play with Andersson and Kulak play with Hammer.

There is no good reason to play Stone, especially when we are losing every game.

There is a good reason to play Spoon.  You see if he is NHL or not, once and for all.  

If not Spoon, then Kylington.  

 

There is no harm.  Little chance of the Heat making the playoffs unless they go on a run.

They lost their goalie duo, their top defender and their top scorer.  

They play less games than the Central division, so they have less games to make up the points percentage.

[Thebrewcrew]

I know emotions are running high, but I think we need to give the Hamonic trace some more time.

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/tipofthetower.com/2017/06/23/toronto-maple-leafs-travis-hamonic-rumors/amp/

 

Yes he’s had a rough season but there’s a laundry list of guys you could say the same about on this team. The above article lists the Wings, Lightning and Leafs as being in on Hamonic before we acquired him. Lou, Holland and Yzerman are also arguably 3 of the best GMs in the league and they wanted Hamonic. Not like BT was completely barking up the wrong tree here. As for the asking price, that’s what happens when there’s 4 teams bidding to acquire a player, you slightly overpay

[cross16]

14 hours ago, The_People1 said:

So what do we think of Hamonic's game now that he's without Brodie?

 

I haven't seen a difference personally. Other than playing hard and sticking up for his teammates, i'm still waiting to see what Hamonic does really well.

 

But to be fair I thought Brodie-Hamonic had a solid 2nd half of the season and were playing better prior to Brodie getting hurt. So not seeing a difference post Brodie is not really a shot at Hamonic as I thought he was playing better already, I just don't think you've seen a change post Brodie for me anyway. 

[MAC331]

11 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I haven't seen a difference personally. Other than playing hard and sticking up for his teammates, i'm still waiting to see what Hamonic does really well.

 

But to be fair I thought Brodie-Hamonic had a solid 2nd half of the season and were playing better prior to Brodie getting hurt. So not seeing a difference post Brodie is not really a shot at Hamonic as I thought he was playing better already, I just don't think you've seen a change post Brodie for me anyway. 

It is what it is for now, we will need him to be much better next season. Hopefully we see the real good Hamonic.

[nevermissashift]

3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

It is what it is for now, we will need him to be much better next season. Hopefully we see the real good Hamonic.

Have you seen the movie St Vincent? 'It is what it is' really bugged him. Anyway

It will be great to see Hamonic take flight next year. That would be great.

He is the only defenceman who shows his teeth on a regular basis. He is my favorite Dman on the squad.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, nevermissashift said:

Have you seen the movie St Vincent? 'It is what it is' really bugged him. Anyway

It will be great to see Hamonic take flight next year. That would be great.

He is the only defenceman who shows his teeth on a regular basis. He is my favorite Dman on the squad.

The only caution would be as cross indicated, maybe these past injuries produced a different player.